12 Mississippi children in ICU, 10 on ventilators

[ArmenianJohn]

Governments and politicians sure speak the language of satan a lot.

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

That passage is a quote of what Christ said to religious leaders, not politicans or government leaders, so I don't know what that has to do with governments and politicians.

If you can come up with some Biblical support for being rebellious against government, feel free to share that. But your passage does not. And Romans 13 contradicts your premise.

 

[Hammster]

No, you haven't. If you have, you don't have to repeat it, point me to it. But you haven't.

Just because you didn’t grasp what I said doesn’t mean that I didn’t explain it.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Just because you didn’t grasp what I said doesn’t mean that I didn’t explain it.

You didn't explain it. You conjectured on what I believe and you were wrong about that. You also conjecture that subjection to earthly governmental authority means supporting every policy that government has, using abortion (presumably in the USA) as an example.

When was the US government ever "godly"? Or does Romans 13 not apply to any government because none were ever "godly"? Or, was there a "godly" government in history that you can name which Romans 13 would have applied to? Did you think the Roman government was "godly" when Paul wrote the Word of God and His instructions on subjection to government?

So far, you've only asserted that you believe Romans 13 does not apply to Christians obeying the US government because abortion. Do you truly believe that? Do you break laws without a clear conscience because you truly believe you're not subject to the laws of the ungodly US Government? What laws do you break under this belief?

I don't break any laws without a guilty conscience, but then again I believe Romans 13 applies to me as an American.

 

[Hammster]

When was the US government ever "godly"?

When it’s policies align with God’s will.

 

[d taylor]

That passage is a quote of what Christ said to religious leaders, not politicans or government leaders, so I don't know what that has to do with governments and politicians.

If you can come up with some Biblical support for being rebellious against government, feel free to share that. But your passage does not. And Romans 13 contradicts your premise.

I was focusing on the liar part about satan. To say that governmnet/politicians and their lies, line up more to/with satan than to God.

You can keep bringing up Romans 13, but that is saying that a believer should be a law abiding citizen. Do not be a murder, thief, rapist, etc...

It is not addressing crooked and lying government but simply the believe to follow laws

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

When it’s policies align with God’s will.

No such government. So Romans 13 was given for no reason?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I was focusing on the liar part about satan. To say that governmnet/politicians and their lies, line up more to/with satan than to God.

All men are liars as all have lied except Christ. But if we're talking about habitual liars, while that may be the majority of politicians, it's also the majority of people in general. Replacing the Pharisees with "government/politicians" changes what God's Word is actually saying to make it appear to say that the government is "of Satan". Romans 13 clearly says otherwise.

You can keep bringing up Romans 13, but that is saying that a believer should be a law abiding citizen. Do not be a murder, thief, rapist, etc...

It says more than just that - it literally says that government is a minister of God to us for good. That's stronger than just "obey the law". In fact, it goes on to say that disobedience to earthly government brings damnation upon the law-breaker.

It is not addressing crooked and lying government but simply the believe to follow laws

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.

If "It is not addressing crooked and lying government" then what kind of government is it addressing? Earlier you used a Bible verse out of context to state that government was crooked and lying and now you're saying Romans 13 doesn't address such a government?

It addresses all earthly government. Every earthly government that I know if in history has been crooked and lying to some extent, yet the Lord says in Romans 13 that He still uses them as a Minister of His Justice, for His good.

In that last verse you quoted, where does it give an exception for "crooked and lying" rulers? It doesn't.

 

[Hammster]

No such government. So Romans 13 was given for no reason?

Really? There’s no government that has any policies that align with God’s will?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Really? There’s no government that has any policies that align with God’s will?

No government has all their policies aligned with God's Will. Are you now saying that it doesn't have to be all policies? What is the amount? For example, the US government has some policies aligned with God's Will and some that are not. At what point is the US government not "godly"? Earlier it sounded like you were saying the US government currently is not godly because of one policy, abortion. So is the US government "godly" or not?

And where does Romans 13 give the qualifier of "godly" for a government to be subjected to by Christians? It's just not there, it seems you're adding that.

 

[Hammster]

No government has all their policies aligned with God's Will

I never once made that claim.

 

[d taylor]

All men are liars as all have lied except Christ. But if we're talking about habitual liars, while that may be the majority of politicians, it's also the majority of people in general. Replacing the Pharisees with "government/politicians" changes what God's Word is actually saying to make it appear to say that the government is "of Satan". Romans 13 clearly says otherwise.


It says more than just that - it literally says that government is a minister of God to us for good. That's stronger than just "obey the law". In fact, it goes on to say that disobedience to earthly government brings damnation upon the law-breaker.


If "It is not addressing crooked and lying government" then what kind of government is it addressing? Earlier you used a Bible verse out of context to state that government was crooked and lying and now you're saying Romans 13 doesn't address such a government?

It addresses all earthly government. Every earthly government that I know if in history has been crooked and lying to some extent, yet the Lord says in Romans 13 that He still uses them as a Minister of His Justice, for His good.

In that last verse you quoted, where does it give an exception for "crooked and lying" rulers? It doesn't.

i never replaced pharisees with government/politicians only you are doing that.

And as you favorite verses states For he is God’s minister to you for good. The verses do not say for God's good but for good.

When someone breaks the laws of a country, they will bring judgment on themselves. From judges and a jury (in america), who will do so at a trial. These people will bring judgment on the evil doer as the Bible states.

Really not sure why you are injecting this damnation idea into Romans 13. Is your political beliefs not allowing you to see what is being said in Romans 13.

Again my point is that God gives satan rulers to govern the kingdoms that are possessed by satan.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I never once made that claim.

No, you remained ambiguous although you strongly implied that the US government is ungodly due to abortion and therefore Romans 13 is not applicable to such an ungodly government.

 

[Hammster]

No, you remained ambiguous although you strongly implied that the US government is ungodly due to abortion and therefore Romans 13 is not applicable to such an ungodly government.

Nope. Never said that either.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

i never replaced pharisees with government/politicians only you are doing that.

You did by using a verse about the Pharisees out of its context and in the context of being about government. You said that government/politicians speak the language of satan a lot, then quoted the verse.

The problem with that is that Christ never spoke those words about the government/politicians as a group but instead about Pharisees as a group. All Pharisees were liars, not all in government/politics are liars. But you attempted to portray government/politicians as being the same as Pharisees, i.e. a group in which all were liars and of their father, Satan.

Is that what you really believe about government? It is all liars children of the Devil, like the Pharisees?

And as you favorite verses states For he is God’s minister to you for good. The verses do not say for God's good but for good.

So you're saying there is another "good" which is different from God's "good"??? What is this other "good"? And here I thought all things good were from God, no exceptions. What is the "good" that is not from God which you are referring to?

When someone breaks the laws of a country, they will bring judgment on themselves. From judges and a jury (in america), who will do so at a trial. These people will bring judgment on the evil doer as the Bible states.

Really not sure why you are injecting this damnation idea into Romans 13. Is your political beliefs not allowing you to see what is being said in Romans 13.

Here is where I'm getting "this damnation idea" from in Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Is your political beliefs not allowing you to see what is being said in Romans 13?

Again my point is that God gives satan rulers to govern the kingdoms that are possessed by satan.

So now the rulers are Satan's, given to him by God? That goes against what God says in this verse in Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

God gives rulers whose power He has ordained over to Satan? What verse tells us that?

 

[d taylor]

You did by using a verse about the Pharisees out of its context and in the context of being about government. You said that government/politicians speak the language of satan a lot, then quoted the verse.

The problem with that is that Christ never spoke those words about the government/politicians as a group but instead about Pharisees as a group. All Pharisees were liars, not all in government/politics are liars. But you attempted to portray government/politicians as being the same as Pharisees, i.e. a group in which all were liars and of their father, Satan.

Is that what you really believe about government? It is all liars children of the Devil, like the Pharisees?


So you're saying there is another "good" which is different from God's "good"??? What is this other "good"? And here I thought all things good were from God, no exceptions. What is the "good" that is not from God which you are referring to?


Here is where I'm getting "this damnation idea" from in Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Is your political beliefs not allowing you to see what is being said in Romans 13?


So now the rulers are Satan's, given to him by God? That goes against what God says in this verse in Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

God gives rulers whose power He has ordained over to Satan? What verse tells us that?

Show me where damnation is in 2917. krima

Strong's Concordance
krima: a judgment
Original Word: κρίμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: krima
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-mah)
Definition: a judgment
Usage: (a) a judgment, a verdict; sometimes implying an adverse verdict, a condemnation, (b) a case at law, a lawsuit.

 

[d taylor]

You did by using a verse about the Pharisees out of its context and in the context of being about government. You said that government/politicians speak the language of satan a lot, then quoted the verse.

The problem with that is that Christ never spoke those words about the government/politicians as a group but instead about Pharisees as a group. All Pharisees were liars, not all in government/politics are liars. But you attempted to portray government/politicians as being the same as Pharisees, i.e. a group in which all were liars and of their father, Satan.

Is that what you really believe about government? It is all liars children of the Devil, like the Pharisees?


So you're saying there is another "good" which is different from God's "good"??? What is this other "good"? And here I thought all things good were from God, no exceptions. What is the "good" that is not from God which you are referring to?


Here is where I'm getting "this damnation idea" from in Romans 13:2
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Is your political beliefs not allowing you to see what is being said in Romans 13?


So now the rulers are Satan's, given to him by God? That goes against what God says in this verse in Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

God gives rulers whose power He has ordained over to Satan? What verse tells us that?

satan offered the kingdoms of the world to The Messiah in exchange for The Messiahs worship.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Nope. Never said that either.

Never said you did.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Show me where damnation is in 2917. krima

Strong's Concordance
krima: a judgment
Original Word: κρίμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: krima
Phonetic Spelling: (kree'-mah)
Definition: a judgment
Usage: (a) a judgment, a verdict; sometimes implying an adverse verdict, a condemnation, (b) a case at law, a lawsuit.

"a condemnation"

 

[ArmenianJohn]

satan offered the kingdoms of the world to The Messiah in exchange for The Messiahs worship.

what's your point?

 

[Hammster]

Never said you did.

Yes you did.
“No, you remained ambiguous although you strongly implied that the US government is ungodly due to abortion and therefore Romans 13 is not applicable to such an ungodly government.”