FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
The point remains that "have not believed" means "have NEVER believed" whether or not you grasp that concept
Yet there's plenty of verse saying if you don't believe ( present tense) you don't have eternal life.
The Bible isn't a collection of unrelated verses.

The present tense is a bogus deal. People argue that the present means ongoing action is required for ongoing salvation. iow, loss of faith equals loss of salvation.

If that were true, then what Jesus said IS a LIE. Why don't you see that?

Too many people have agendas to protect, rather than just letting Scripture speak.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The "second death" is for those who "have not believed". They WILL BE condemned.

Both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 say that.

Using a verse with a list of sins to try to prove that salvation can be lost only reveals your own agenda.

What you do not understand is that sin isn't the issue in salvation. Yes, all men are sinners. But some sinners will go to heaven. Why? Because Jesus gave them the gift of eternal life and therefore, they shall never perish.

Those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed" do NOT receive eternal life, and therefore will perish. You can bet on it.

Again, it says nothing about those who once believed back in grade school but now are atheists.
Scripture isn't bound to say only what you seem to demand it say. Please be rational and reasonable.

When Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish, He meant every word.

We know WHEN a person receives eternal life; when they believe. John 5:24.

So, from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, that person shall never perish.

You cannot show ANY verse that refutes what Jesus said. So quit trying to.

Those who reject eternal security and refuse to believe the clear words of Jesus simply don't have a grip on "grace". None whatsoever.

Even the goody two shoes who believe in Christ and live a quite and obedient life STILL do NOT deserve heaven. Don't you see that? No more than Charles Templeton, the evangelist who mentored Billy Graham, but eventually left the faith over a faulty teaching that he couldn't reconcile with the Bible. So he concluded that God wasn't real.

Arminians (anti-OSAS) always emphasize lifestyle as the key issue in whether one goes to heaven or not. They just completely miss grace. They don't understand it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Quote Scripture. I don't believe you.
I did that, but you don’t believe Scripture either.
I sure don't believe your take on Scripture.

Please repeat the verse that very clearly teaches that salvation can be lost.

Hmm. You must have skipped over it, since it was right in the middle (not that all of them didn’t say so), but let me repeat one verse out of those.
1 Tim 4:1 - “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.”

That is a very explicit statement from the Spirit of God Himself.
Right. I AGREE that believers can depart the faith. Does that say clearly that they lose salvation? No, it does not. Arminians only ASSUME/PRESUME that it means that.

Charles Templeton was a very successful evangelist, even mentoring a young Billy Graham. But he eventually departed from the faith over a false teaching that he thought was truth but it contradicted reality. So he concluded that God didn't exist.

Unless there is a clearly worded verse that unambiguously indicates that salvation can be lost, there is NO reason to believe that. And there aren't any.

Most Arminians pull up parables and metaphors to try to make their case. That's the worst defense ever. Jesus even said that parables were designed to hide the truth. And His own disciples had to have them explained.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Since outboth terms can be used interchangeably, this is a matter of hair-splitting at this point IMO
That is the problem; the words "fellowship" and "relationship" are used interchangeably, but that is false, as I pointed out with my examples.

Didn't you read them? If not, please go back and study them and see if you can prove me wrong. To summarize, 'fellowship' is the state or condition of the relationship. It can be in a good state (harmony) or in a bad state (prodigal).

Paul commanded believers to NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit. Do you honestly think a believer can be IN fellowship (harmony) when doing either of these things? I hope not.

-and I'm not sure the reason why. A basic concept of the faith is that man (Adam) broke relationship with God, whatever that relationship consisted of, by a willful act of disobedeince.
To be clear, Adam didn't break relationship. Yes, he rebelled and disobeyed. But the relationship was broken by the sin, under God's warning. Adam wasn't thinking "relationship" when he ate the fruit. He just wanted to stay with the woman. And the woman was deceived by the serpent. As we all know. I'm not attempting to defend Adam but noting facts. In fact, God said nothing about relationship at all. It was a matter of dying if disobedient. Since the woman had eaten before she shared, Adam may have thought, "well, she is still standing. Apparently we don't die if we eat."

What they didn't understand was that the warning contained 2 kinds of death. The original has "dying, you will die". iow, the "dying" refers to physical death over time, which we know as aging. The "will die" was immediate and it was spiritual death. iow, their human spirits died immediately. That's why they hid when the Lord came in the evening. They had no way to interact with Him.

Remember what Jesus told the woman at the well. Jn 4:24 - God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Jesus was telling the woman that real worship of God requires a human spirit AND worshiping God's way, which is truth.

What do you think gets RE-born when we get saved, or what gets RE-generated. The dead human spirit, of course. And that is where the Holy Spirit resides or indwells.
 
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FreeGrace2

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No, I read what Christ said explicitly. He said that any branch that is “IN HIM” that does not produce fruit will be “CUT OFF FROM HIM” and thrown into the fire. To be cut off from the tree (Jesus, the LIFE) is to be cut off from Heaven (where there will be no more death). And to be thrown into the fire is to be thrown into Hell (the second death).
Spiritualizing a passage allows anyone to make the passage whatever they want.

Jesus gave His disciples a farming metaphor. Simple as that.

When Jesus said to be "in Him" He was telling them they needed to be IN fellowship with Him in order to bear fruit. That is the message of John 15:1-6.

Believers out of fellowship with the Lord, through unconfessed sin, CANNOT bear fruit, and ARE either grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30) or quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:19).

Can't have it both ways.
 
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renniks

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FreeGrace2 said:
What YOU don't have is any verse that teaches that salvation or eternal life can be removed. That's what you need to support your theology, and you don't have such a verse.

Several?? Rather than just say you did, please do it again.
Why? Go back and find them.
 
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renniks

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Arminians (anti-OSAS) always emphasize lifestyle as the key issue in whether one goes to heaven or not. They just completely miss grace. They don't understand it.
Lol, I understand grace. But you can't find any verses that say eternal life is given to unbelievers.
You are the one who is trying to prove something the Bible never claims.
 
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Doug Brents

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Again verses which are speaking to the discipleship area of being a fruit bearer. Absolutely nothing to do with believers losing faith and becoming an unbeliever.

The Bible states believer works will be judged by fire, so just because fire is used in a passage does not mean being cast into hell is in view.
Yes, in 1 Cor 3:15 the focus is on the works of the man, and if they are found wanting (burned up) he will still be saved. But in John 15, the focus is not on the works, but the man himself. It is he that will be cut off from the root (Jesus), and he that will be thrown into the fire (Hell).
 
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d taylor

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Yes, in 1 Cor 3:15 the focus is on the works of the man, and if they are found wanting (burned up) he will still be saved. But in John 15, the focus is not on the works, but the man himself. It is he that will be cut off from the root (Jesus), and he that will be thrown into the fire (Hell).

No 1 Corinthians is about believers and their works tested by fire.

Hell is your insertion of "that idea" into these verses (in John 15) saying that believers are cast into hell for not bearing fruit.
 
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Doug Brents

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Right. I AGREE that believers can depart the faith. Does that say clearly that they lose salvation? No, it does not. Arminians only ASSUME/PRESUME that it means that.

Charles Templeton was a very successful evangelist, even mentoring a young Billy Graham. But he eventually departed from the faith over a false teaching that he thought was truth but it contradicted reality. So he concluded that God didn't exist.

Unless there is a clearly worded verse that unambiguously indicates that salvation can be lost, there is NO reason to believe that. And there aren't any.

Most Arminians pull up parables and metaphors to try to make their case. That's the worst defense ever. Jesus even said that parables were designed to hide the truth. And His own disciples had to have them explained.
Yes, Jesus explained a couple of His parables so that the Apostles, and we, could understand the rest of them.

As I said in another thread, I have no idea who or what an Arminian is. I have never worshipped Armin, nor do I have any record of him during for me. I am a Christ follower. So don’t put a bogus label on me, or try to put me in a box of your own construction.

It amazes me to see the lengths you go through to not see what God says. The Bible is not 66 independent stories about historical figures. It is one story, written by one author through the pens of many different men over a couple of thousand years. That manes all of it relevant and related to all of the rest of it.

You seem to think you can take one or two verses and create a doctrine, regardless of what else any other passage says. That is the perversion of Scripture and the doctrine of demons those passages I quoted are talking about.
 
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fhansen

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I know you're only trying to cheapen the idea of eternal security, but Jesus clearly taught it from John 5:24 and John 10:28. Like it or not.

Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. That is the teaching of Jesus.
Cheapen an already faulty concept? Hardly-I'm just trying to get you to see the truth-the big picture-and away from rash confidence about something you can't even know with 100% certainy. God, alone, knows with absolute certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life. We can't even predict our own perseverance for that matter. We can have a strong level of assurance based on His promises and trustworthiness together with fruit showing in our lives (evidence of His presence in us IOW) while balanced by the acknolwdgement of our own weaknesses, limitations, and sinfulness.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
What YOU don't have is any verse that teaches that salvation or eternal life can be removed. That's what you need to support your theology, and you don't have such a verse.

Several?? Rather than just say you did, please do it again.
Why? Go back and find them.
OK. Too lazy. If you know verses, how difficult is it to quote them again.

I quote verses all the time to show people why I believe what I do.

It seems you just aren't all that interested in proving yourself.
 
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renniks

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FreeGrace2 said:
What YOU don't have is any verse that teaches that salvation or eternal life can be removed. That's what you need to support your theology, and you don't have such a verse.

Several?? Rather than just say you did, please do it again.

OK. Too lazy. If you know verses, how difficult is it to quote them again.

I quote verses all the time to show people why I believe what I do.

It seems you just aren't all that interested in proving yourself.
It seems you don't actually read my posts anyway.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Arminians (anti-OSAS) always emphasize lifestyle as the key issue in whether one goes to heaven or not. They just completely miss grace. They don't understand it.
Lol, I understand grace. But you can't find any verses that say eternal life is given to unbelievers.
Of course I can't, because NO such verses exist.

And I don't have to have such a verse, as you presume. What I do have are verses that say that when a person becomes a believer (John 5:24) they HAVE (possess) eternal life.

And I have a verse where Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish (John 10:28).

So, the issue is that when Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, that recipient shall never perish.

So it's NEVER about lifestyle, which you keep trying to make it.

You are the one who is trying to prove something the Bible never claims.
Of course I am NOT. You just don't want to face the reality of what Jesus taught in John 10:28.

When Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, which is when they believe (John 5:24), He says they shall never perish.

So it's never about lifestyle. It's about being given the gift of eternal life, which is when the person gets saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (Eph 2:8).
 
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renniks

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FreeGrace2 said:
What YOU don't have is any verse that teaches that salvation or eternal life can be removed. That's what you need to support your theology, and you don't have such a verse.

Several?? Rather than just say you did, please do it again.

OK. Too lazy. If you know verses, how difficult is it to quote them again.

I quote verses all the time to show people why I believe what I do.

It seems you just aren't all that interested in proving yourself.
BTW, you aren't teaching eternal security. I've attended churches that teach eternal security. It's never applied to unbelievers.
Rather, it's the idea that God won't let anyone cease believing once he saves them.
I don't know where you got this strange idea that a person can stop believing and remain saved. It's nowhere in scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, Jesus explained a couple of His parables so that the Apostles, and we, could understand the rest of them.
Uh no. We can only understand the parables that He explained to His disciples. Not the "'rest of them", as you presume.

As I said in another thread, I have no idea who or what an Arminian is. I have never worshipped Armin, nor do I have any record of him during for me.
This is all just immaterial. You've certainly been under pastors from whom you've been taught. Or admit you never go to church or ever read any Christian literature or hear any Christian radio or TV programs.

You have been taught what Arminians believe. That's the point.

I am a Christ follower. So don’t put a bogus label on me, or try to put me in a box of your own construction.
The central feature of Arminianism is that salvation can be lost.

You seem to think you can take one or two verses and create a doctrine, regardless of what else any other passage says.
If your beliefs are biblically correct, how come you CAN'T quote a verse that says in plain language (no parables, metaphors, figures of speech) that salvation can be lost.

That is the perversion of Scripture and the doctrine of demons those passages I quoted are talking about.
You think the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost IN SPITE OF all that Jesus taught, esp about recipients of eternal life, about whom He said THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

It is NOT about lifestyle. Salvation is about receiving the gift of eternal life.
 
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renniks

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So it's never about lifestyle. It's about being given the gift of eternal life, which is when the person gets saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (Eph 2:8).
Of course it is and I never said anything about lifestyle. You made that up.
It's about belief. Non believers will not be given eternal life.

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Not the one who becomes a Buddhist or atheist or Muslim or Hindu, even though he was once a believer in Christ.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
I know you're only trying to cheapen the idea of eternal security, but Jesus clearly taught it from John 5:24 and John 10:28. Like it or not.

Once given eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. That is the teaching of Jesus.
Cheapen an already faulty concept?
[
Yep. That's just what you are trying to do.

I'm just trying to get you to see the truth-the big picture-and away from rash confidence about something you can't even know with 100% certainy.
It seems you don't really know what trust means then. I AM 100% certain of what I believe, because I have quoted verses that SAY what I believe. Unlike yourself.

God, alone, knows with absolute certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life.
Of course none of know with certainty who else's name is there. But consider what John wrote:

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

I HAVE certainty that my name is in the book of life. I DO believe in the name of the Son of God, so I KNOW that I HAVE eternal life.

Why aren't you so certain?

We can't even predict our own perseverance for that matter.
There you go again. Trying to make it all about perseverance. It isn't. It's all about receiving eternal life. You just don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

We can have a strong level of assurance based on His promises and trustworthiness together with fruit showing in our lives (evidence of His presence in us IOW) while balanced by the acknolwdgement of our own weaknesses, limitations, and sinfulness.
You have a problematic obsession with lifestyle. It's getting in the way of understanding Scripture.

Lifestyle is the issue for God's blessings and eternal reward. It is NOT about salvation.

If you aren't willing to accept that, your mind is simply closed to the truth of the Bible.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Of course it is and I never said anything about lifestyle. You made that up.
It's a common theme from Arminians.

It's about belief. Non believers will not be given eternal life.
Here's your problem. You think belief must be ongoing for salvation to be ongoing.

But that's NOT how the present tense works. It DOESN'T demand that the action continue for the results to continue.

Here is an example of how the present tense works.

A police officer confronts a violent criminal and shoots and kills him. His action of shooting is obviously in the present tense. In fact, all actions that we do are "in the now" or "presently".

However, the result of the shooting is that the criminal is DEAD.

Now, the police did the shooting in the present tense. Does he have to keep shooting for the criminal to keep being dead? Of course not. That would be absurd.

Now, after the fact, the shooting is described as a past tense action; the police SHOT the criminal. But the criminal is STILL DEAD. How about that.

And the Bible uses the aorist (past) tense to describe salvation as well. In fact, Paul's answer to the jailer used the aorist tense: "believe (aorist) on the Lord Jesus and you WILL BE (future) saved."

So, let's apply that to my example.

The police officer shoots (aorist) the criminal and he will be dead (future).

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
See. More lifestyle. However, please examine the context of what "to the end" refers to. It is the Tribulation. Has NOTHING to do with keeping salvation.

Not the one who becomes a Buddhist or atheist or Muslim or Hindu, even though he was once a believer in Christ.
How sad. You just can't let go of lifestyle, can you.

When Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, He SAYS they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

But you actually refuse to believe that, given all your defaults to lifestyle.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
What YOU don't have is any verse that teaches that salvation or eternal life can be removed. That's what you need to support your theology, and you don't have such a verse.

Several?? Rather than just say you did, please do it again.

OK. Too lazy. If you know verses, how difficult is it to quote them again.
It seems you don't actually read my posts anyway.
If I didn't read your posts, why would I ask for the verses again?

How about this: just cite what you think is a loss of salvation verse, so I can see for myself why you think salvation can be lost.

I will absolutely address the verses you cite. Because I DO read your posts.
 
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FreeGrace2

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BTW, you aren't teaching eternal security. I've attended churches that teach eternal security. It's never applied to unbelievers.
Rather, you are just NOT grasping the point. Of course eternal life isn't applied or given to unbelievers. Jesus gives the gift WHEN a person DOES believe. Can you comprehend this very simple point? Seems not.

And WHEN Jesus gives the gift, Jesus SAYS they shall never perish.

Rather, it's the idea that God won't let anyone cease believing once he saves them.
How can that be true since Jesus Himself SAID some "believe for a while" in Luke 8:13.

If the Bible did teach that, then what Jesus said cannot be true.

I don't know where you got this strange idea that a person can stop believing and remain saved. It's nowhere in scripture.
Well, since you have stubbornly refuted to believe what Jesus said, or even try to understand what He said in John 10:28, of course you won't find it in Scripture. But it is there. John 10:28 is simply the clearest one.

Jesus couldn't have made it any more clear. He gives eternal life and the recipients shall never perish.

See? Nothing about lifestyle. No conditions to recipients. Once given, they shall never perish.

But your eyes and ears are not open. You seem to NOT want to believe it. So you don't.
 
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