O.B.N.C.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You treat a former believer as a NON-believer.

Because they are by definition. You cannot be a Christian non believer.

OK, you just don't or don't want to believe what John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach.

They teach that it is those who "have not believed" that will be condemned.

That's not found anywhere in scripture and it defies logic.

No, you deny logic when you deny the 2 verses that tell us clearly who will be condemned.

Those who have not believed.

But you keep wanting to make it about lifestyle.

iow, if a Christian leaves the faith and joins some religion, which is a lifestyle thing, you deny that they cannot be condemned.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You treat a former believer as a NON-believer. But, as I've repeatedly shown you, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

John 3:18 is present tense. And in the Thess chapter believers are told to stand firm. I wonder why?

I wonder why you won't accept the 2 verses above.

When a person believes, they possess eternal life. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. All this was taught by Jesus. Why don't you believe Him???

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
In the meantime, I will point out that the phrase "cut off" was used in the OT for separation from society for certain behaviors. It may even refer to physical death. But there's just NO parallel to spiritual death.

Oh get real. The passage is about salvation. What else could it mean? You are twisting scripture.

Yes, please get real. I TOLD you what it was about. I even explained how the words "cut off" were used in the OT.

It pays to pay attention.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
5:24 says believers possess eternal life. So, the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE, by definition, believers. And they possess eternal life.

Exactly. While they are believers.

You just sunk yourself. Where in that verse does it say "while they are believers". You are inserting your own presumption into the verse.

This shows HOW you misread Scripture. You keep adding your presumptions rather than just letting the verse speak for itself.

You'll never understand the truth if you keep doing that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You continue to believe that a believer CAN perish

Nope. But a former believer will.

OK, let's go with this idea.

Has a former believer EVER believed in Christ and given eternal life?

Jesus told us that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. So you do not believe Him on that one.

Jesus also told us that believers possess eternal life in John 5:24. It seems you don't believe that either.

Many Arminians believe that eternal life isn't given until after physical death.

But John 5:24 completely refutes that presumption.

 

[renniks]

No, you deny logic when you deny the 2 verses that tell us clearly who will be condemned.

Two verses? You build your whole theology on two verses that you twist to mean what you want them to. That's how cults work.

 

[renniks]

iow, if a Christian leaves the faith and joins some religion, which is a lifestyle thing, you deny that they cannot be condemned.

It's not a lifestyle thing. It's a denial of Christ.

"But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in Heaven."

 

[renniks]

You just sunk yourself. Where in that verse does it say "while they are believers". You are inserting your own presumption into the verse.

Oh, good grief. If someone is defined as a believer yet don't believe, they are still a believer in your theology.
This is worse than believing men who dress as women are female.

 

[renniks]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You continue to believe that a believer CAN perish

OK, let's go with this idea.

Has a former believer EVER believed in Christ and given eternal life?

Jesus told us that recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. So you do not believe Him on that one.

Jesus also told us that believers possess eternal life in John 5:24. It seems you don't believe that either.

Many Arminians believe that eternal life isn't given until after physical death.

But John 5:24 completely refutes that presumption.

The verses you quote disagree with you.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."

"Believeth", present tense. Not"used to believe one time at Bible school, then went to college and became a card carrying athiest."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Two verses? You build your whole theology on two verses that you twist to mean what you want them to. That's how cults work.

My "whole theology"?? Seriously? There's much more to my theology than eternal security.

But, since you claim that I am twisting them to mean what I want them to mean, I challenge you to specifically describe what is being twisted.

In the meantime, the phrase "has not believed" means "hasn't believed".

So, tell me this: has a former believer believed? yes or no

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not a lifestyle thing. It's a denial of Christ.

Joining a religion IS a lifestyle thing. Whether you realize that or not.

"But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in Heaven."

What's the context? Do you even understand it?

And, do you really think that Jesus wasn't aware that He would be contradicting Himself from John 10:28?

You need to give more thought to your claims BEFORE you embarrass yourself.

Jesus would NEVER have contradicted Himself. And what He said in John 10:28 is so clear that grade school children understand what He meant by what He said.

So, why can't you?

Matt 10:32m33
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

In v.32 we see believers. Those who have received the gift of eternal life.
In v.33 we see unbelievers. Those who have not believed and never received eternal life.

Real simple.

Now, show me where I'm twisting anything.

Prove that v.32 isn't about believers and v.33 isn't about those who never believed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You just sunk yourself. Where in that verse does it say "while they are believers". You are inserting your own presumption into the verse.

Oh, good grief. If someone is defined as a believer yet don't believe, they are still a believer in your theology.
This is worse than believing men who dress as women are female.

Wow. You just completely ignored what I caught you doing. No verse says "WHILE they are believers". You were simply presuming.

If a believer leaves the faith, I don't call them a believer. I call them an apostate. A former believer, if you will.

Regardless of what one is called, WHEN they believe they possess eternal life (Jn 5:24) and the result is that they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

Only those who have not believed will be condemned.

You've been given 4 verses that prove that salvation is permanent, yet you refuse to believe that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The verses you quote disagree with you.

OK, let's see.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."

"Believeth", present tense. Not"used to believe one time at Bible school, then went to college and became a card carrying athiest."

I know your obsession for specifically worded verses that you know don't exist.

Here's the deal. The present tense simply means at the moment one believes, which is ALWAYS the present tense when they believe, they possess eternal life.

iow, every action that you perform is performed "at the current time", or "presently", or "right now".

You seem to presume that the results of the present tense actions only keep on if the action keeps on.

That's not the present tense. While action may be continuous or ongoing, that isn't required for the results to continue. That is presumption.

Consider this statement:
Shoot a man in heart and he will die.

Now, when a person performs that action, it IS in the present tense. And the result is that the shootee will die.

So, does the shooter have to keep on shooting in order for the shootee to stay dead?

That's basically what you are trying to argue.

The singular action of shooting leaves the shootee dead.

And Jesus used the aorist tense (past action) in John 4 when telling the woman at the well that the drink He would give her would result in eternal life.

Jesus wasn't teaching that she needed to keep drinking. Not at all. The aorist tense is used for a "point in time" action. iow, an action without ANY CONSIDERATION for length of time of the action. Go ahead and look it up in a Greek grammar text.

So, nope, the verses I quoted do NOT disagree with me.

They sure do disagree with you though.

 

[renniks]

My "whole theology"?? Seriously? There's much more to my theology than eternal security.

But, since you claim that I am twisting them to mean what I want them to mean, I challenge you to specifically describe what is being twisted.

In the meantime, the phrase "has not believed" means "hasn't believed".

So, tell me this: has a former believer believed? yes or no

That's one verse. Of course a person has to first believe at some point. That doesn't say anything about the one who no longer does believe.

 

[renniks]

In v.32 we see believers. Those who have received the gift of eternal life.
In v.33 we see unbelievers. Those who have not believed and never received eternal life

It doesn't say that at all.
It doesn't add any condition.

Acts20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
Matt24:4-5
"And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray."
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

It doesn't matter that this is about the persecution of the church. It's the same today as in Nero's time. Those who follow false teachers will deny the true Christ and be lost.

 

[renniks]

a believer leaves the faith, I don't call them a believer. I call them an apostate. A former believer, if you will.

Regardless of what one is called, WHEN they believe they possess eternal life (Jn 5:24) and the result is that they shall never perish (Jn 10:28).

Apostates have always been condemned as heretics in the church, but you somehow know better?
I really can't take you seriously.

 

[renniks]

OK, let's see.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life."


I know your obsession for specifically worded verses that you know don't exist.

Here's the deal. The present tense simply means at the moment one believes, which is ALWAYS the present tense when they believe, they possess eternal life.

iow, every action that you perform is performed "at the current time", or "presently", or "right now".

You seem to presume that the results of the present tense actions only keep on if the action keeps on.

That's not the present tense. While action may be continuous or ongoing, that isn't required for the results to continue. That is presumption.

Consider this statement:
Shoot a man in heart and he will die.

Now, when a person performs that action, it IS in the present tense. And the result is that the shootee will die.

So, does the shooter have to keep on shooting in order for the shootee to stay dead?

That's basically what you are trying to argue.

The singular action of shooting leaves the shootee dead.

And Jesus used the aorist tense (past action) in John 4 when telling the woman at the well that the drink He would give her would result in eternal life.

Jesus wasn't teaching that she needed to keep drinking. Not at all. The aorist tense is used for a "point in time" action. iow, an action without ANY CONSIDERATION for length of time of the action. Go ahead and look it up in a Greek grammar text.

So, nope, the verses I quoted do NOT disagree with me.

They sure do disagree with you though.

Faith is never a point in time action.
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

If one no longer has that conviction and assurance he has no faith.
It's more than a one time mental acknowledgement that Jesus is God.
It's trust and dependency on him for salvation in the present time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's one verse.

Let me help you count. John 3:18, 2 Thess 2:12, John 5:24, John 10:28. That's not 1.

And that only scratches the surface. There are many more. But these 4 are SO CLEAR that anyone can understand that salvation is permanent.

Of course a person has to first believe at some point. That doesn't say anything about the one who no longer does believe.

So what? When a person does believe, they ARE given eternal life. That's what John 5:24 says. Why don't you believe that?

And Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Why don't you believe that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
In v.32 we see believers. Those who have received the gift of eternal life.
In v.33 we see unbelievers. Those who have not believed and never received eternal life

It doesn't say that at all.
It doesn't add any condition.

Then tell me who Jesus is referring to iih v.32 and v.33.

Acts20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

None of this even speaks to salvation, much less the loss of it.

Matt24:4-5
"And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray."
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

OK, let's look at the context here.

The very next verses say:
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Jesus was speaking about the Tribulation.

And there's more in Matt 24:
18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So there you have it. Matt 24 is about the Tribulation. And that's what v.13 is about.

It seems you're just so obsessed to prove Jesus wrong or something. His words are clear that salvation is permanent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Apostates have always been condemned as heretics in the church, but you somehow know better?

I know what the Bible says and I've been sharing it with you, but you seem very unwilling to believe what the Bible says. Why is that?

I really can't take you seriously.

And why should I take you seriously when YOU can't defend yourself and you are so unwilling to believe the verses that I've been sharing with you.

You claim I twist the verses, but you have never even tried to correct me.

Why is that?