O.B.N.C.

[renniks]

See. More lifestyle. However, please examine the context of what "to the end" refers to. It is the Tribulation. Has NOTHING to do with keeping salvation.

How sad. You just can't let go of lifestyle, can you.

When Jesus gives the gift of eternal life, He SAYS they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

But you actually refuse to

It's not lifestyle. Again you are just inventing stuff in never said. It's about what we believe. You can not seriously believe an atheist is going to inherit eternal life when the Bible so clearly says otherwise. It's like you take calvinist thinking to the nth degree then claim you aren't one.

 

[renniks]

Rather, you are just NOT grasping the point. Of course eternal life isn't applied or given to unbelievers. Jesus gives the gift WHEN a person DOES believe. Can you comprehend this very simple point? Seems not.

And WHEN Jesus gives the gift, Jesus SAYS they shall never perish.


How can that be true since Jesus Himself SAID some "believe for a while" in Luke 8:13.

If the Bible did teach that, then what Jesus said cannot be true.


Well, since you have stubbornly refuted to believe what Jesus said, or even try to understand what He said in John 10:28, of course you won't find it in Scripture. But it is there. John 10:28 is simply the clearest one.

Jesus couldn't have made it any more clear. He gives eternal life and the recipients shall never perish.

See? Nothing about lifestyle. No conditions to recipients. Once given, they shall never perish.

But your eyes and ears are not open. You seem to NOT want to believe it. So you don't.

Who will never perish in John 10?
A little context:
"Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The sheep. Not the former sheep that no longer believe. And if you think this cannot change, note that Jesus said that those present were not his sheep. And yet at the later in the chapter:

"But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp."

Obviously one can go from non sheep to sheep and vice versa.

 

[renniks]

OK. Too lazy. If you know verses, how difficult is it to quote them again.
If I didn't read your posts, why would I ask for the verses again?

Because you didn't read them of course.

 

[renniks]

How about this: just cite what you think is a loss of salvation verse, so I can see for myself why you think salvation can be lost.

We can "fall from grace"
Gal. 5:1- We can be "cut off" from salvation (Rom. 11:18-22), and have our names removed from the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. 22:19)

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's not lifestyle. Again you are just inventing stuff in never said.

Oh, please stop. You KEEP bringing in lifestyle.

It's about what we believe. You can not seriously believe an atheist is going to inherit eternal life when the Bible so clearly says otherwise

Now you're trying to change the goal posts. "inheriting eternal life" is DIFFERENT than receiving the gift of eternal life.

Let me explain. Gifts are, by definition, are NOT earned. So receiving the gift is by grace, not by works.

However, in the verses that mention "inheriting eternal life", it is obviously something earned. See for yourself. And THAT is about lifestyle.

It's like you take calvinist thinking to the nth degree then claim you aren't one.

Hardly. I have verses that totally support my beliefs. Unlike yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Who will never perish in John 10?

Recipients of the gift, that's who. Jesus was real clear.

And v.27 is NOT a condition for receiving the gift. It's a statement of what believers DO or OUGHT to do.

A little context:
"Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The sheep.

Read it again. Jesus didn't say "the sheep" as you claim. He said HIS sheep. He died for THE sheep, which is everyone, but in the context above, He was specifically referring to HIS sheep.

Not the former sheep that no longer believe.

Why do you ignore John 5:24, which is the verse that tells us WHEN a person receives the gift? Believers possess (have) the gift. So, it is WHEN a person becomes a believer that they receive the gift. So John 10:28 is about recipients of the gift, not about their lifestyle. As much as that must really bother you.

And if you think this cannot change, note that Jesus said that those present were not his sheep.

In fact, they were NEVER His sheep. That's the point.

And yet at the later in the chapter:

"But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp."

Obviously one can go from non sheep to sheep and vice versa.

The verses you just quoted do NOT support your presumption.

Please give me a verse that says so. Otherwise, there is NO reason to believe your claims.

Sheeps can't become goats or vice versa.

Saved people cannot become unsaved people.

God's children cannot become NOT God's children.

If you are right, there should be verses that refute my claims above.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
OK. Too lazy. If you know verses, how difficult is it to quote them again.
If I didn't read your posts, why would I ask for the verses again?

Because you didn't read them of course.

I may have missed them. But you're trying really hard to NOT have to share them again.

I ENJOY repeating verses that support what I say. I'm puzzled why someone who claims to have verses that say what they believe aren't willing to repeat themselves.

But I get this kind of response all the time, and I've been on many forums over the years.

When I get the kind of response I'm getting from you, it means you KNOW you don't have such verses. Or you would have gladly shared them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We can "fall from grace"

Yes, we can. The Bible says so. But the Bible does NOT say that we can lose salvation.

You simply misunderstand what "fall from grace" means. That's all.

Gal. 5:1- We can be "cut off" from salvation (Rom. 11:18-22)

There are NO verses that say that. You are expressing your presumption. Why didn't you quote Rom 11:18-22 if you were so confident?

and have our names removed from the Lamb's Book of Life (Rev. 22:19)

If you would read that verse carefully you would realize that John was using a literary technique called "litotes". Look it up.

There are NO examples of anyone's name being removed from the book of life. None.

 

[renniks]

Oh, please stop. You KEEP bringing in lifestyle.

Where? I never once brought up anything but belief. Not once did I say some certain sin would cause you to lose salvation.

 

[renniks]

Hardly. I have verses that totally support my beliefs. Unlike yourself.

I have yet to see one.

 

[renniks]

There are NO verses that say that. You are expressing your presumption. Why didn't you quote Rom 11:18-22 if you were so confident?

I did earlier and you ignored it

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."

Clear as day. We can be cut off for unbelief.

 

[Doug Brents]

Uh no. We can only understand the parables that He explained to His disciples. Not the "'rest of them", as you presume.

Then why did God put them in Scripture? They are there so that those of us in whom the Spirit dwells can, through His instruction, learn truths about Him, the world He created, and how to have relationship with Him through the parables, and people who do not have the Spirit cannot know those truths.

This is all just immaterial. You've certainly been under pastors from whom you've been taught. Or admit you never go to church or ever read any Christian literature or hear any Christian radio or TV programs.

You have been taught what Arminians believe. That's the point.

No. I have read Scripture, and studied it in depth. I have also read commentary, papers, and dissertations, and discussed and debated the same with hundreds of people. Some have agreed with me and the conclusions I have drawn from Scripture. Some have disagreed. And some have shown my conclusions to be in error (no, I am not perfect ). But on this topic, I have never read in Scripture, or been shown by anyone with whom I have studied, anything that contradicts the Spirit’s statement in 1 Tim 4:1, or any of the other passages that state that salvation can be lost. Jesus said it many times (yes, most of the time in parables so that the meaning could be hidden from those who don’t want to see it).

The central feature of Arminianism is that salvation can be lost.

Then, at least in this one instance, they are correct.

If your beliefs are biblically correct, how come you CAN'T quote a verse that says in plain language (no parables, metaphors, figures of speech) that salvation can be lost.

Do you also need clear language to know that Satan was one of God’s greatest, most beautiful, and most powerful angels? No. Because it is clear in the text that God is not only talking about the King of Tyre, but of Satan.

You think the Bible teaches that salvation can be lost IN SPITE OF all that Jesus taught, esp about recipients of eternal life, about whom He said THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH.

It is NOT about lifestyle. Salvation is about receiving the gift of eternal life.

No, I believe that if we do not remain faithful after salvation until physical death, Jesus SAID we will lose that salvation.

Your doctrine leaves the door wide open for someone to believe in Christ and receive salvation, and then turn around and go into a sin rampage of murder, rape, theft, etc, with the expectation of being saved no matter what they do. That is neither Biblical nor logical. But that is the end result of your contention.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where? I never once brought up anything but belief. Not once did I say some certain sin would cause you to lose salvation.

Your mistake is thinking that belief must continue in order for salvation to continue.

So, by extension, if a believer leaves the faith (that IS lifestyle) and becomes anything else (that's also a lifestyle), they cannot enter heaven.

You treat a former believer as a NON-believer. But, as I've repeatedly shown you, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

A former believer is, by definition, someone who HAS believed. So, their lifestyle after their leaving the faith does NOT enter in.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have yet to see one.

And I can't make you open your eyes and focus and open your ears and pay attention either.

Which is your problem. You don't want to see the truth, since your mind is already made up.

However, both John 5:24 and 10:28 prove that salvation is permanent. But you actually have to pay attention to know this.

5:24 says believers possess eternal life. So, the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE, by definition, believers. And they possess eternal life.

Now, 10:28 teaches that recipients of eternal life, which occurs WHEN one believes, shall never perish.

These are Jesus' own words. Yet you refuse to believe the obvious words.

You continue to believe that a believer CAN perish. You are in direct conflict with Jesus.

 

[renniks]

You treat a former believer as a NON-believer.

Because they are by definition. You cannot be a Christian non believer. That's not found anywhere in scripture and it defies logic.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
There are NO verses that say that. You are expressing your presumption. Why didn't you quote Rom 11:18-22 if you were so confident?

I did earlier and you ignored it

I must have been tired of having to repeat myself. This is always the "go-to" passage for those who refuse to believe John 5:24 and 10:28.

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."

Clear as day. We can be cut off for unbelief.

Right. But you presume to be "cut off" means spiritual death. But it CAN'T mean that.

Explain, if you can, how someone who possesses eternal life (Jn 5:24) can die spiritually.

If that were true, then "eternal" life isn't all that "eternal", is it.

So, please explain this mystery.

In the meantime, I will point out that the phrase "cut off" was used in the OT for separation from society for certain behaviors. It may even refer to physical death. But there's just NO parallel to spiritual death.

 

[renniks]

You treat a former believer as a NON-believer. But, as I've repeatedly shown you, both John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12 teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "have NEVER believed".

John 3:18 is present tense. And in the Thess chapter believers are told to stand firm. I wonder why?

 

[renniks]

In the meantime, I will point out that the phrase "cut off" was used in the OT for separation from society for certain behaviors. It may even refer to physical death. But there's just NO parallel to spiritual death.

Oh get real. The passage is about salvation. What else could it mean? You are twisting scripture.

 

[renniks]

5:24 says believers possess eternal life. So, the moment a person believes in Christ for salvation, they ARE, by definition, believers. And they possess eternal life.

Exactly. While they are believers.

 

[renniks]

You continue to believe that a believer CAN perish

Nope. But a former believer will.