Quiz: Are you Calvinist or Arminian?

Humble_Disciple · Jul 4, 2021

Navair2 said:
For most of the past 18 years ( until the last three years or so ), so was I.

OK. What changed your mind?

Humble_Disciple · Jul 4, 2021

Bobber said:
So what do you say to people I've talked to through the years who feel lost and condemned because they don't feel a force with desire making them want to serve God anymore. In other words they don't feel anything irresistible at all. They don't consider that repentance has nothing to do with feeling anything but you just do it. Calvinists teachings I believe causes them to stumble.

Irresistible grace doesn't mean that we will always feel enthusiastic about God's grace or that we will never be able to resist God's grace.

It means that, in the life of God's elect ones, He will ultimately be able to overcome our resistance and lukewarmness and bring us to ultimate salvation.

Our ultimate salvation is dependent on the object of our faith, Jesus Christ, and not our own feelings.

Navair2 · Jul 4, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
OK. What changed your mind?

The "hold-out" passages like 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2 began to be understood in context for me.
For example, when I realized that God is indeed the Saviour of all men in the earthly sense ( Psalms 107 ), then my understanding about 1 Timothy 4:10 changed.

The one thing that ultimately convinced me were the passages that detailed what was actually accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished for.
For example:

" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:8-11 ).

Follow the pronouns and answer the questions...

"Who is this passage speaking to and about?"
The believers at Rome.

"What was accomplished at the cross?"
The reconciliation of a people.

"What people?"
See Matthew 1:21, John 10:11.

In other words, for me it was a gradual thing to come to agree with all "Five Points".
Unconditional election was first.

Taodeching · Jul 4, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Whether you call it ancestral sin or original sin, both doctrines teach that we inherited death and a tendency to sin from Adam.

I have created a thread here asking for clarification from the Orthodox forum Ancestral Sin vs. Orginal Sin

Bobber · Jul 4, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Irresistible grace doesn't mean that we will always feel enthusiastic about God's grace or that we will never be able to resist God's grace.

Sorry Humble but it seems you're just trying to make that up as you go along. If there was such a thing as irresistible grace you would feel enthusiastic about it for your enthusiasm would have to overcome your holding back. And then you claim you can resist God's irresistible grace. I think you have to make up your mind. It's either irresistible grace or it's not.

It means that, in the life of God's elect ones, He will ultimately be able to overcome our resistance and lukewarmness and bring us to ultimate salvation.

We were talking about ones feeling assurance of salvation though. What if a person asks what if I die before God can overcome my resistance? So what are you going to tell him. Too bad you couldn't have been one of the elect then? But you gave him false hopes his lukewarmness would be overcome. Not by him but by God.

And my, my, my you don't think the doctrine you're holding to creates DANGER? Surely it must and would do so. So let's consider. You have individuals who are living sloppy and being lukewarm and you've insinuated they can be a Christians and be this....but they can just lay back as a Calvinist and say, "Hey one of these days God's going to overcome my luke warmness for me? If I'm resisting God no problem!" Yeah one might falsely think they have assurance of salvation but wow....talk about walking on thin ice to hold such a position. You wouldn't agree?

So. False beliefs. False hopes. Being presumptuous. Not what Jesus maybe described when he said, "Many will say Lord, Lord....and for them it would not end well? I'm sure you don't want to ever be found guilty of having instilled a presumptuous dangerous thinking in another so maybe you might want to dial that back? Honestly I would if I were you. Consider your Calvinistic thinking has lead you down the wrong way.

Bobber · Jul 4, 2021

Navair2 said:
The "hold-out" passages like 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2 began to be understood in context for me.
For example, when I realized that God is indeed the Saviour of all men in the earthly sense ( Psalms 107 ), then my understanding about 1 Timothy 4:10 changed.

The one thing that ultimately convinced me were the passages that detailed what was actually accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished for.
For example:

" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:8-11 ).

Follow the pronouns and answer the questions...

"Who is this passage speaking to and about?"
The believers at Rome.

"What was accomplished at the cross?"
The reconciliation of a people.

"What people?"
See Matthew 1:21, John 10:11.

In other words, for me it was a gradual thing to come to agree with all "Five Points".
Unconditional election was first.

Sorry Navair and no offence but very faulty thinking in your behalf. I can take all the scriptures you quoted from Rom 5:8-10 and be preaching them to a church in one of my Canadian cities.....of course I'm making it personal saying US and WE. Still doesn't prove it's not a blessing provided for all of humanity universally who'll receive.

"What people?"
See Matthew 1:21, John 10:11.

Still doesn't mean all universally couldn't have been the sheep of Jesus. Just because Jesus knew all wouldn't doesn't mean they couldn't have.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

Bobber said:
If there was such a thing as irresistible grace you would feel enthusiastic about it for your enthusiasm would have to overcome your holding back.

If you are going to argue against the doctrines of Calvinism, could you please demonstrate that you at least understand the doctrines of Calvinism?

Here are some scripture passages supporting the doctrine of irresistible grace:

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The same word translated “draw” in John 6:44 is found in Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 where the apostolic authors speak of someone being “dragged” somewhere. Though the elect may try at first to resist God’s drawing, He drags us, against our fallen wills, to Jesus. God overcomes our natural enmity toward Himself and guarantees that His elect people will choose to follow Christ.
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/mans-radical-fallenness/

Other verses where irresistible grace can be seen include 2 Corinthians 4:1-6; Acts 13:48; Acts 16:14 and Romans 8:30. In 2 Corinthians 4:1-6, after explaining why some people do not believe the gospel (it is veiled to them and their minds have been blinded toward it), Paul writes, “For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Corinthians 4:6). The God who said, “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3) is the same God who gives the light of salvation to those He chooses, and the result is just as sure. The same truth is seen in a different way in Acts 13:48. Here it is said that “as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” God saves those He chooses to save; therefore, His saving grace is always effective or efficacious. In Acts 16:14, we have another example of God’s irresistible grace in action. The Lord opened the heart of Lydia “to respond the things spoken of by Paul.” Finally you have what is called the “golden chain of redemption” in Romans 8:29-30. Here we see that everyone God calls to salvation (the inward call) will be saved (justified).
https://www.gotquestions.org/irresistible-grace.html

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

Navair2 said:
The one thing that ultimately convinced me were the passages that detailed what was actually accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished for.

Here are passages from the early church fathers in favor of limited atonement:

Barnabas (A.D. 70): “[Christ speaking] I see that I shall thus offer My flesh for the sins of the new people.”

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150): “He endured the sufferings for those men whose souls are [actually] purified from all iniquity…As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross.”

Irenaeus (A.D. 180): “He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men…Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary…promising to give His life a ransom, in the room of, many.”

Tertullian (A.D. 200): “Christ died for the salvation of His people…for the church.”

Cyprian (A.D. 250): “All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved…Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape…He redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood…Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ.”

Lactantius (A.D. 320): “He was to suffer and be slain for the salvation of many people…who having suffered death for us, hath made us heirs of the everlasting kingdom, having abdicated and disinherited the people of the Jews…He stretched out His hands in the passion and measured the world, that He might at the very time show that a large people, gathered out of all languages and tribes, should come under His wings, and receive the most great and sublime sign.”

Eusebius (A.D. 330): “To what ‘us’ does he refer, unless to them that beleive in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him, He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ’s coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him.”

Julius (A.D. 350): “The Son of God, by the pouring out of His precious blood, redeemed His set apart ones; they are delivered by the blood of Christ.”

Hilarion (A.D. 363): “He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father.”

Ambrose (A.D. 380): “Before the foundation of the world, it was God’s will that Christ should suffer for our salvation…Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death?”

Pacian (A.D. 380): “Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price.”

Epiphanius (A.D. 390): “If you are redeemed…If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou are not the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood…He gave His life for His own sheep.”

Jerome (A.D. 390): “Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers…Not all are redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant…All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou hast prepared for Thyself by Thine own blood…Christ came to redeem Zion with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one is Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Church…He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe.”
Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

Here are quotations from the early church fathers supporting the five points of Calvinism, most of whom from before the time of Augustine:
Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

Here are passages from the Bible supporting the five points of Calvinism:
What is Calvinism and is it biblical? What are the five points of Calvinism? | GotQuestions.org

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

There is nothing unfair about predestination. No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

JesusFreak78 · Jul 5, 2021

I got Calvinism, but that was also expected.

Bobber · Jul 5, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Here are some scripture passages supporting the doctrine of irresistible grace:

Matt 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Doesn't support irresistible grace. The very next verse, again the very next verse says “Come to Me, all who are weary” (Mt. 11:28). If verse 27 is about irresistible grace he would not have ALL to come to him who are weary. That would be universalism. Jesus is upfront and honest about everything. Being weary would have nothing to do with anything. He would have merely said "Come to me you elect!" He didn't.

As for your other verses you seem to think support irresistible grace we can look at them later for you didn't answer what I believe were good questions asked of you.

1) You said there's irresistible grace and yet you also claimed men can resist it. If it's irresistible one wouldn't and their enthusiasm for God would compel them into compliance. So do you really believe in irresistible grace? I'd suggest to you not. Give it some thought.

2) You said men can resist God but they really don't have to worry about that. Their assurance of salvation can be they can have faith God's irresistible grace will change them in the end. And I asked you what if they die before that takes place? So what's that say about their assurance and confidence they have with Calvinism feeling good about it that God will change them some future time? That's why you said you felt good about Calvinistic thinking. You don't think that's not a dangerous way to be thinking? You even said one should not be worried about being lukewarm. God will change all that. But what did Jesus say in Rev 3: 15 ?Do we say any such false assurance you say Calvinism provides?

I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. Rev 3:15

Interesting thoughts here. Didn't even say they were cold. Can't therefore mean total depravity means exactly what a Calvinist would think it is. If so they'd be just cold and frozen. And he didn't say to the lukewarm no worries I'll take care of that in the end. He said YOU better do something about it or else. But you said Calvinism teaches God will take care of it all therefore you have PEACE. Please consider a false peace my friend as it's not based in reality. I highly exhort you to consider,

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 Tim 4:3,2

So following teachers that suit their own passions....one could say to make them feel comfortable in their lukewarmness thus giving them assurance of salvation? (as you said Calvinism give you) We're told though to be sober minded not to allow oneself to become deceived in order to suit our desires. Please give it some thought.

Navair2 · Jul 5, 2021

Bobber said:
Sorry Navair and no offence but very faulty thinking in your behalf.

I'm sure that from your point of view, it is.
Also, while I respect your right to your own opinion, I find that I must disagree with it.

Bobber said:
I can take all the scriptures you quoted from Rom 5:8-10 and be preaching them to a church in one of my Canadian cities.....of course I'm making it personal saying US and WE. Still doesn't prove it's not a blessing provided for all of humanity universally who'll receive.

Respectfully, anyone who really knows what they are doing with the Scriptures can take one "verse" or set of them ( one thing that the Lord has to say about a subject ) and pit it against another...
Making one directly contradict another.

For example:

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." ( Acts of the Apostles 7:51 ). <---- God can be resisted.
" Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? " ( Romans 9:19 ). <---- God cannot be resisted ( Daniel 4:35, Job 9:12, Job 42:2, Psalms 115:3 ).

Here's another:

" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ). <--- God loves all men.

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man." ( Psalms 5:5-6 ). <---- God hates all men, because all men are sinners ( Romans 3:10-11, Romans 3:23 ).

Do you see what I just did?
In isolation and without context provided from the rest of God's word, it's not easy to determine what the truth of the matter is, is it?

Navair2 · Jul 5, 2021

@Bobber :
One more example of context:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

In isolation and without the rest of God's word around it, the question is, who are the "usward", "all" and "any" here?
Should it be determined without seeing more of God's words, or should the person reading it wait until more of God's word on the subject can be brought to bear?

When I was a young believer, I was taught the Scripture from the pulpit in "verses", and that the one above was saying that the Lord is long-suffering towards humanity and the He is not willing that any of mankind should perish, but that all of mankind should come to repentance.
For many years I was taught this, until one day it clicked as I was reading it "plugged back into the text" where it belongs:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).

Now, who so you see is the subject of the "usward", "any" and "all"?
Do you not see that it is the "beloved" from verse 8?

I do.

So now when I read this passage for myself, the subject that was once "all men everywhere" becomes "all of the beloved"...
and places a limit on who it is that God is not willing should perish, but that they all should come to repentance.

It also agrees with these ( instead of disagreeing with them ):

John 3:16 ( the "whoseover believeth in Him" should not perish ).
John 5:24.
John 6:37.
John 6:39 ( all that the Father gives to Christ He will lose nothing ).
John 6:44.
John 10:27-29 ( the sheep should not perish ).

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

I don't post on this thread to convince others of Calvinism. If God willed for you to be a Calvinist, you would be a Calvinist. Instead, I am here to provide lines of evidence in favor of Calvinism, so that fellow Calvinists will be strengthened in their Calvinism.

I have no reason to sling mud at non-Calvinists for their biblical and doctrinal inconsistencies, though I wish they would stop misrepresenting Calvinism and its doctrinal foundations.

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

A lot of people reject Calvinism simply because they dislike the person of John Calvin. Calvin himself, however, went to great lengths to demonstrate that the doctrines of grace didn't originate with him.

Anti-Calvinists are usually ignorant of church history, that the basic doctrines of Calvinism were already taught by Augustine against Pelagius and Luther against Rome, as well as the scriptural proofs for Calvinism.

The doctrines we know today as “Calvinism” are only called that because it was John Calvin who popularized them. I would use the term "Reformed" instead, but it's too imprecise for most people.

The fact of the matter is that, without the doctrines which later became known as "Calvinism," there would have never been a Protestant Reformation in the first place.

Navair2 · Jul 5, 2021

@Humble_Disciple :

I no longer call it "Calvinism"...
I call it the Gospel.
Some call it the "Gospel of Grace", while others the "doctrines of grace";
To me they are interchangeable.

But I'm well-aware that there are many, especially on Christian forums like this, who seem perfectly willing to sidestep ( and even completely cast aside ) the Lord's commandments in matters of Christian conduct ( Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 10:31-33, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:25-32, Galatians 6:10, Ephesians 5:1-20, Colossians 3, 1 Timothy 6:11, 2 Timothy 2:14-16, 2 Timothy 2:22-26, Titus 2, Titus 3:1-11 ) and get vicious with me over this subject.

That's why I no longer attend the visible churches, and why I will ( very soon ) stop posting on Christian forums altogether;

Because there are so many professing Christians in these last days that not only disagree with one another over what sound doctrine actually is, there are also many ( on both sides of this ) who adamantly drag their opponents through the mud.
They do this all the time, and all the while trying to justify their shameful and ungodly behavior towards others when it comes to defending what they believe and teach.

It saddens me to see it.

In the end if people want to disagree with me, that is fine...
I won't hold it against them.
But there's no need to get hostile over it.

That said ( and I've said more than enough ), I'll take my leave of this thread, having answered the OP.

May God bless you and all who read this with many good and perfect gifts ( James 1:17 ).

Bobber · Jul 5, 2021

Navair2 said:
@Bobber :
One more example of context:

" The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." ( 2 Peter 3:9 ).

In isolation and without the rest of God's word around it, the question is, who are the "usward", "all" and "any" here?

Yes I know. And I've heard all you Calvinists suggest this. I'm not buying though. It's still an absolute violation of how we use language in general. Peter was writing a letter to Christians YES. But I don't see that merely because he says God is longsuffering to USWARDS that he not talking about all mankind in general and Christians ARE a part of mankind's plight.

When I was a young believer, I was taught the Scripture from the pulpit in "verses", and that the one above was saying that the Lord is long-suffering towards humanity and the He is not willing that any of mankind should perish, but that all of mankind should come to repentance.
For many years I was taught this, until one day it clicked as I was reading it "plugged back into the text" where it belongs:

" But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Sorry but still nothing there that justified you to have changed what you were believing before. So what if he said beloved. Navair he was writing a letter to Christians. He called them beloved. So what? Still doesn't mean all his language was to be frozen in place ALL referring to the same exclusive thing that he's only talking to you. I can write a letter calling you beloved and teach you that God is good to US giving US rain for our crops. Does that mean to say one can walk away from that saying ONLY CHRISTIANS got rain for their crops? Come on Navair. You might find it good if you reconsidered your position.

Now, who so you see is the subject of the "usward",

So again if I said to you and your Christian group God has provided rain for your crops are you going to insist that means ONLY you Christians? You wouldn't take that to mean all of humanity?

Do you not see that it is the "beloved" from verse 8?

No I don't see it's the beloved in verse 8. Yes the word beloved is in vs 8 but it's not a directive for context. It's just a loving way to talk to Christians.

So now when I read this passage for myself, the subject that was once "all men everywhere" becomes "all of the beloved"...

And it's sad that you went that direction. A mere loving way to talk to fellow believers became to you a way you're directing context. And you do this full knowing that even in our day one can talk to a specific group but never meaning you can't swing over and be talking about humanity and our part within it.

Consider this to help. I say, eg. Beloved, the government is showing mercy and patience to us and decided to extend the date when we have to give our tax returns. So does that mean everyone outside the church doesn't get the same break? Of course not.

Bobber · Jul 5, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Anti-Calvinists are usually ignorant of church history,

Don't buy that. It's a biased statement.

.... that the basic doctrines of Calvinism were already taught by Augustine against Pelagius and Luther against Rome, as well as the scriptural proofs for Calvinism.

Wouldn't matter anyway. Each generation have the scriptures they need to study and be in prayer seeking the wisdom of God in assessing them. Acts 17:10

Humble_Disciple · Jul 5, 2021

A lot of people are against Calvinism because they think it's anti-mission, when exactly the opposite is true. If God has decreed that the preaching of the Gospel is the means by which God awakens faith in His elect, this provides assurance that our evangelistic efforts will be fruitful.

Some of the greatest missionaries and revivalists in history, such as George Whitefield and Jonathan Edwards, have been Calvinists. Paul Washer is an example of a contemporary Calvinist evangelist:

Washer reports converting to Christianity while studying to become an oil and gas lawyer at the University of Texas at Austin.[6][7] He moved to Peru where he became a missionary for 10 years.[8] In 1988, while in Peru,[9] Washer founded the HeartCry Missionary Society to support indigenous missionaries witnessing to people of their own culture.[10][11]
Paul Washer - Wikipedia

Quiz: Are you Calvinist or Arminian?

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