It is permissive for Christians to eat meat today

Fervent

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Which was done way back in post # 139 linked. Where it was stated that the scriptures teach that sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and not believing and following Gods' Word *Romans 14:23. So can you tell me do you agree that sin is the transgression of the law and not believing and following God's Word. It would help the discussion so I am not misunderstanding you. Do you agree or not?
I have answered the question(multiple times), which is that such a definition is incomplete and misleadingly stated. It is a half-truth, which is to say it is a damnable lie.
 
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HIM

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Happy Sabbath!
Thank you! May the Lord continue to bless us all in all His Way; Christ Jesus.
Off to church. Lol I have to walk across the street. We live in the middle of the Talladega National Forrest. So it is a pretty and short walk.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I have answered the question(multiple times), which is that such a definition is incomplete and misleadingly stated. It is a half-truth, which is to say it is a damnable lie.
I see so you do not believe that sin is the transgression of the law and you believe this is a lie? For me you seem to be putting out conflicting statements. I thought you said to @HIM that you agree that sin is the transgression of the law. This of course is Gods Word verbatim from 1 John 3:4 so I would not be calling it a damnable lie considering the scriptures in Matthew 7:1-2. Anyhow I have asked you many times now for clarification so I have no misunderstanding as to what your saying asking you if you agree with the bibles definition of sin posted way back in post # 139 linked where it was stated that the scriptures teach that sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and not believing and following Gods' Word *Romans 14:23. You seem to be avoiding this question. So your comments to me and others seem to be conflicting. So of course you so not have to answer my questions to you if you do not want to. Perhaps you can pray about it. Thanks very much for the discussion. That is enough for me for now. I guess we will agree to disagree. :wave:
 
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Fervent

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I see so you do not believe that sin is the transgression of the law and you believe this is a lie? For me you seem to be putting out confusing statements. I thought you said to @HIM that you agree that sin is the transgression of the law. This of course is Gods Word verbatim so I would not be calling it a damnable lie considering the scriptures in Matthew 7:1-2. Anyhow I have asked you many times now if you agree with the bibles definition of sin posted way back in post # 139 linked. Where it was stated that the scriptures teach that sin is the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and not believing and following Gods' Word *Romans 14:23. You seem to be avoiding this question. So your comments to me and others seem to be conflicting. So of course you so not have to answer my questions to you if you do not want to. Perhaps you can pray about it. Thanks very much for the discussion. That is enough for me for now. I guess we will agree to disagree. :wave:
Way to completely twist what I have said. Your dishonesty is astounding.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Way to completely twist what I have said. Your dishonesty is astounding.
God knows who is being honest and who is not. I have also asked you for clarification as to what you believe so there is no misunderstandings between us as I thought some of your posts were giving conflicting mixed messages but you refused to answer my questions for clarification. Let God judge between us dear friend and not seek to judge each other. I do not judge you. Thank you for the discussion.
 
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Fervent

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God know who is being honest and who is not. Let God judge between us and not seek to judge each other. Thanks for the discussion.
I'll let your actions speak of your character, which you have demonstrated as dishonest.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I'll let your actions speak of your character, which you have demonstrated as dishonest.
Not really I have only told you the truth but it seems you do not believe it. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to the scriptures (Romans 3:4. Acts of the Apostles 5:29). Please see also Romans 2:1-12. Good night :wave:
 
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Fervent

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Not really I have only told you the truth but it seems you do not believe it. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to the scriptures (Romans 3:4. Acts of the Apostles 5:29). Please see also Romans 2:1-12. Good night :wave:
If that were true you wouldn't carve it up to suit your needs and inconsistently deal with it, nor would you have distorted my response to you as you have.
 
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Eating meat when there are so many alternatives seems like a terrible idea.

Can you elaborate? Are fish and/or poultry permissible? Why is killing/eating vegetables so much better?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that eating meat is sinful. On the contrary, "One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables." Romans 14:2

and...

"Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3
 
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The Liturgist

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Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree with your teachings as shown from the scriptures that disagree with you already. Lets make this very clear. I did not give a definition of sin it was God's Word verbatim that gave a definition of sin in 1 John 3:4 which says ... sin is the the transgression of the law. These are Gods' Word verbatim which agree with what James says in James 2:10-11 and Paul says in Romans 7:7 and Romans 3:20.

@Fervent has shown that the Epistle According to James, and according to Romans, does not disagree with his doctrine, but supports it: doctrine, which by the way represents the doctrine of most churches. A Lutheran, a Calvinist, a Methodist, an Orthodox Christian from Russia, Ukraine, Romania, Armenia or Ethiopia, an Assyrian and a Waldensian would all agree with him on this point.

There is also the serious issue of eisegetical verse selection which I do not see addressed, and the issue of attempting to avoid what the original Greek says by using a different translation.

It was you on the other hand that is trying to argue against Gods Word verbatim that sin is not the transgression of the law which is God's Word not my words. Sin is also defined as not believing and following Gods Word in Romans 14:23 so I do not think you can get an any wider biblical definition of what sin is.

Unless you reject St. Paul, legalism represents a failure to believe and follow the Sacred Scriptures and the Incarnate Word and is therefore sinful. See Galatians 3, which I will address subsequently.

You were also provided nearly every commentary I could think of on 1 John 3:4 which all disagree with you here.

Oh really? Where are the commentaries of the Church Fathers, like Origen, St. John Chrysostom, and Theodore of Mopsuestia? And, why is it that most of the commentaries available, such as those of John Wesley and John Calvin, actually do not disagree with @Fervent but support him? Have you read these commentaries all the way through, on the subject even of John 1:3? Because it is critical to understand what is meant by commandment, which John Calvin’s commentary does a particularly good job explaining.

So sorry I do not believe you. For me only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. It becomes our judge come judgement day according to John 12:47-48.

You are here making the dangerous mistake of confusing the Word of God (Jesus Christ) with sacred scripture, which contains the Word and is a verbal icon of the Word, and could be called the written word, but is not animate and cannot judge us; on judgement day even your own denomination says we will be judged by Christ Pantocrator, albeit with the peculiar doctrine of the Investigative Judgement which happens to coincide with the failed predictions of the Millerites as to the date of the second coming (something scripture warns us to not presume to know, or I would argue, predict).

But if Christ does judge us against the whole of scripture, we would be damned for any imperfection even if we adhered to the Law perfectly, as St. Paul points out.

This takes us to Galatians 3, which I will quote entirely, and not respond to any replies to any verses but only to the entire chapter, so as to preclude eisegesis:


O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? 4 Did you experience so many things in vain?—if it really is in vain. 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?

6 Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 7 So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith.

10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no man is justified before God by the law; for “He who through faith is righteous shall live”;12 but the law does not rest on faith, for “He who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”— 14 that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The Promise to Abraham
15 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man’s will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many; but, referring to one, “And to your offspring,” which is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

The Purpose of the Law
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not; for if a law had been given which could make alive, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the scripture consigned all things to sin, that what was promised to faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not really dear friend all I am hearing is your words arguing with God's Word but you do not see it so there is not really any point in continuing this further. As posted earlier, I will leave it between you and God to work through.

I don’t see any disagreement between @Fervent, the sacred scriptures, and God the Holy Trinity.
 
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The Liturgist

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"Verbatim" doesn't really matter when context is ignored, which is where Scripture gets its meaning.

Or as Hilary of Poitiers puts it, Scripture is in the interpretation, and not the reading, because the Arians and others were able to quote it in a manner contradictory to the context in which it was written, by means of eisegesis and de-contextualizationn, which prompted Vincent of Lerins to call for us to ignore novel interpretations not believed everywhere, by anyone, at all times.
 
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The Liturgist

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The only definition of sin from the scriptures is that sin is the transgression of the law and not believing and following Gods' Word. There is no other definition of sin as already shown through the scriptures provided in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Romans 14:23 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin. I answered your question from the beginning saying that sin is the transgression of God's law and not believing and following God's Word and provided the scriptures. Perhaps you missed it.

Again you confuse the written word with Christ Jesus.

Also, while we are on the subject of God Incarnate, why are there no crosses or crucifixes in most Adventist churches?
 
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The Liturgist

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Let's take a look.
1John 3:4 Πᾶς Everyone
ὁ That
ποιῶν Practices
τὴν the
ἁμαρτίαν Sin,
καὶ Also
τὴν the
ἀνομίαν Lawlessness
ποιεῖ Practices;
καὶ And
ἡ the
ἁμαρτία Sin
ἐστὶν Is
ἡ the
ἀνομία Lawlessness.

It literally says Sin is lawlessness.

So what is lawlessness? Practicing without law.

Is practicing without law breaking the law?


Of course. Keep in mind a Law is something that is. There are laws in nature and Laws in respect to morality. They are a constant. They change not. Statutes and ordinances are mandated and are not the same as laws.

Here is Thayer's citation for the word translated breaking the law above:
ἀνομία, ἀνομίας, ἡ (ἄνομος);
1. properly, the condition of one without law -- either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.
2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness: Mat 23:28; Mat 24:12; 2Th 2:8 (T Tr text WH text; cf. ἁμαρτία, 1, p. 30f), 7; Tit 2:14; 1Jn 3:4. opposed to ἡ δικαιοσύνη, 2Co 6:14; Heb 1:9 (not Tdf.) (Xenophon, mem. 1, 2, 24 ἀνομία μᾶλλον ἤ δικαιοσύνη χρώμενοι); and to ἡ δικαιοσύνη and ὁ ἁγιασμός, Rom 6:19 (τῇ ἀνομία εἰς τήν ἀνομίαν to iniquity -- personified -- in order to work iniquity); ποιεῖν τήν ἀνομίαν to do iniquity, act wickedly, Mat 13:41; 1Jn 3:4; in the same sense, ἐργάζεσθαι τήν ἀνομίαν, Mat 7:23; plural αἱ ἀνομίαι manifestations of disregard for law, iniquities, evil deeds: Rom 4:7 (Psa 31:1 (Psa 32:1)); Heb 8:12 (R G L); Heb 10:17. (In Greek writings from (Herodotus 1, 96) Thucydides down; often in the Septuagint) (Synonym: cf. Trench, sec. lxvi.; Tittm. 1:48; Ellicott on Tit 2:14.)*

Violating it. Violating the Law, breaking it.

Ignorant of the law though?


Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law (written in stone or parchment), do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

More eisegesis. Why are you not quoting Galatians 3, for example, or Romans 5?
 
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Henric72

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Can you elaborate? Are fish and/or poultry permissible? Why is killing/eating vegetables so much better?

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that eating meat is sinful. On the contrary, "One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables." Romans 14:2

and...

"Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3

I was told spiritually to not eat meat.
I can only guess why it is worse to kill animals. Perhaps animals are more aware. Perhaps plants can not feel anxiety etc. Perhaps animals are closer than plants to the next step in spiritual evolution and killing them interrupts that process.

Since we do not need meat it is insanity to take the chance.
 
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GallagherM

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What do you guys think?

If a person desires to eat what they like they can if they want; is it okay?

Are there consequences if you don’t eat healthy sure; but did that ever stop anyone from eating what they desired anyway?
 
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More eisegesis. Why are you not quoting Galatians 3, for example, or Romans 5?
Because the text was 1Jo. And nothing in the post showed any agenda or bias. The post was facts pertaining to the text.

Eisegesis is a Process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases

Exegesis is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text.
 
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