Question for rapture people

nolidad · Mar 19, 2020

summerville said:
Titus withdrew from 66AD to 70AD.

Visions and Dreams
While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions that brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams that were the spark that started the false teaching of British-Israelism. Not long afterwards, Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines supposedly from God that were much at variance with one another and contrary to biblical teachings. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, ‘let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them’; you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proves [tests] you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

Deuteronomy 13:1–3

Chapter 17: The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin

and the point of your posting is?

summerville · Mar 19, 2020

nolidad said:
and the point of your posting is?

Plain old information without the drama.

nolidad · Mar 19, 2020

summerville said:
Plain old information without the drama.

So no message or point concerning the topic?

keras · Mar 19, 2020

nolidad said:
So th etentribes that were scattered under Sennacherib are no longer Israel???

And the prophecy In Exekiel that says in the last days God would rejoin the houses of Israel and Judah is false?

And are you saying that prophecy in Jeremiah is only for the 2 tribes of Judah and the church and the ten tribes of Israel are excluded?

It was under King Sargon 2, that the House of Israel were exiled. Circa 718/715 BC They soon left where they were taken to, in Northern Iran and migrated across Europe. Jeremiah 31:21 Those waymarks can still be seen today.
Their descendants remain scattered among the nations and will rejoin with the few Christian Jews, as per Ezekiel 37.
It is only the faithful Christians, of whatever ethnicity they are today, who will participate in the New Covenant.
The majority will be actual descendants of Jacob, having lost their ancestral identity over the past 3000 years, in order for God's Promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled. Genesis 17:1-8

ewq1938 · Mar 19, 2020

nolidad said:
But we do know that Ezekiel 37 promises a temple during the reign of Jesus and Ezekiel 40:5-43:27 describes the construction.

That was something Israel was supposed to build but didn't. It is not prophecy and will not be something built in or for the Millennium.

No animal sacrifices will take place

Agreed.

keras · Mar 19, 2020

ewq1938 said:
That was something Israel was supposed to build but didn't. It is not prophecy and will not be something built in or for the Millennium.

Agreed.

This is not correct.
Israel will build the new Temple. Just not the fake Israel who are in the holy Land now.
Ezekiel 40-48 describes it and says that we will worship in it, making thank offerings to the Lord. Isaiah 56:6-8

nolidad · Mar 20, 2020

keras said:
It was under King Sargon 2, that the House of Israel were exiled. Circa 718/715 BC They soon left where they were taken to, in Northern Iran and migrated across Europe. Jeremiah 31:21 Those waymarks can still be seen today.
Their descendants remain scattered among the nations and will rejoin with the few Christian Jews, as per Ezekiel 37.
It is only the faithful Christians, of whatever ethnicity they are today, who will participate in the New Covenant.
The majority will be actual descendants of Jacob, having lost their ancestral identity over the past 3000 years, in order for God's Promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled. Genesis 17:1-8

Actually we could go further and name Tiglath-Pileser III (Pul) and Shalmaneser V. as the ones who started the process of exiling the ten northern tribes. Sargon continued but it was under Sennacherib that the final and long term exile took place. He sent the Israelis throughout the Assyrian Empire.

As for the New Covenant see you have allowed allegorism and anti-semite instructors to cloud your thinking!

God made it clear to jeremiah that is the ethnic Israelis that will benefit from the covenant! Christians were never under the Mosaic Covenant

Paul made it clear that we Gentile Christians have been grafted into the vine of blessing! We are partakers , not taker overs!

Why you cannot accept God at His simple Word is beyiond me.

Jeremiah 31:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Romans 11:25-30 King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

A simple straightforward reading of Gods Word shows this means the 12 tribes of Israel.. It is only through subverting the normal meaning and understanding does one twist this to mean Christians.

But why should we accept your allegorical opinion over others who offer a different allegorical opinion???

nolidad · Mar 20, 2020

keras said:
This is not correct.
Israel will build the new Temple. Just not the fake Israel who are in the holy Land now.
Ezekiel 40-48 describes it and says that we will worship in it, making thank offerings to the Lord. Isaiah 56:6-8

Members of the Body of Christ who are jewish would not rebuild the temple. They know they are the temple of the living God!

It is unbelieving Israel that builds the temple.

nolidad · Mar 20, 2020

ewq1938 said:
That was something Israel was supposed to build but didn't. It is not prophecy and will not be something built in or for the Millennium.

Agreed.

gods said it will be built!

Sorry, but Israel rebuilt the Temple after ezekiels time (under Nehemiah and especially Zerubbabel), and it was not these dimensions- even with Herods gfrand additions!

So it is the temple in th e future!

ewq1938 · Mar 20, 2020

nolidad said:
gods said it will be built!

Sorry, but Israel rebuilt the Temple after ezekiels time (under Nehemiah and especially Zerubbabel), and it was not these dimensions- even with Herods gfrand additions!

So it is the temple in th e future!

It was meant to be built in the past not the future. Israel failed to do this and that is simply it. None of that is prophecy and even if Israel builds it or something like it, it won't be what God wanted because it's too late now. The New covenant ended any relevancy of the temple Ezekiel described.

keras · Mar 20, 2020

nolidad said:
Members of the Body of Christ who are jewish would not rebuild the temple. They know they are the temple of the living God!

It is unbelieving Israel that builds the temple.

Wrong. We Christians will build the new Temple. Zechariah 6:15

The prophetic Scriptures clearly predict that the Third Temple will be built and the sacrifices reinstated, in the final years leading up to the Return of the Messiah. It is clear, too, that there will be more than just the Jewish people living in the Land of Greater Israel. All the Israelites from all 12 tribes of Israel, plus those grafted in, will migrate to New Israel soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the terrible Day of fire and storms, that will clear and cleanse most of the Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18

The place of the new Temple, will be to the North of the existing Dome of the Rock, because this is in the direct line of the now sealed Eastern gate. The Bible, the Torah, and Josephus, all agree that the Temple was in that location.

The Jewish sage, Moses Maimonides, known as Rambam, declared that the Temple will be rebuilt and the exiles from around the world gathered back into the Promised Land.
The Messiah will appear and re-establish the glory of King David.

In the Talmud Yerushalmi, Rabbi Acha says; The Beit Hamikdash [Holy Temple] will be built first, before the advent of the Kingdom of David.

The Pnei Moshe states; The Land will be settled first, then the people will become prosperous, after that they will build the Temple and finally, the Messiah will come.

In the Mar’eh Punim the Gaon Moshe Margolis wrote that when Jacob predicted the future of Judah, he foretold that the Temple would be rebuilt first, then the Messiah would come. But the Jews are not prophesied to build the new Temple.

The whole scenario of the end times, has a logical sequence to it. Now in the latter days,, we can see how things are happening that will see a confederation of Islamic states and entities that will be motivated to get rid of the ‘ cancer ‘ in their midst, that is the State of Israel. The moment of their attack, is the moment that God will intervene. This great Day of the Lord, will take the form of a natural event: a Coronal Mass Ejection, a massive sunstrike of cosmic particles, causing intense heat and electrical storms. The attacking armies will be destroyed by their own weaponry, as they all explode before firing. This literally fulfils the prayer in Psalms 83:13-18

Many prophesies speak of the regeneration of the Land of Greater Israel, “in a very short while”, Isaiah 29:17, after this great clearance and cleansing of the entire area.

Christian Israelites- “His people, who love the Lord and follow in His ways” will then gather “on the mountains of Samaria”. This is described in Ezekiel 20:34-38, Psalms 107

Over 40 prophesies describe how God’s holy people, every faithful Christian, will live in peace and security in their own Land. At last, they will be as God originally intended, “a light to the nations”, they will “exemplify My Holiness for all to see”. Ezekiel 39:27-29 [The attack by Gog/ Magog will come during this period]

WE will build the Third Temple, and “the splendor of this latter House will surpass that of the former”. Haggai 2:9 Zechariah 8:9-13 has wonderful promises of restoration and redemption; Courage! Do not lose heart!

nolidad · Mar 21, 2020

ewq1938 said:
It was meant to be built in the past not the future. Israel failed to do this and that is simply it. None of that is prophecy and even if Israel builds it or something like it, it won't be what God wanted because it's too late now. The New covenant ended any relevancy of the temple Ezekiel described.

I await your evidence to prove that.

nolidad · Mar 21, 2020

keras said:
Wrong. We Christians will build the new Temple. Zechariah 6:15

Sorry but wrong! YOu forgot one little word! IN

15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the Lord, and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God.

The Millenial Temple prophesied in Ezekiel is the outer temple! The insides were never mentioned! If this was an English test you would have failed.

keras said:
The prophetic Scriptures clearly predict that the Third Temple will be built and the sacrifices reinstated, in the final years leading up to the Return of the Messiah. It is clear, too, that there will be more than just the Jewish people living in the Land of Greater Israel. All the Israelites from all 12 tribes of Israel, plus those grafted in, will migrate to New Israel soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the terrible Day of fire and storms, that will clear and cleanse most of the Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18

The place of the new Temple, will be to the North of the existing Dome of the Rock, because this is in the direct line of the now sealed Eastern gate. The Bible, the Torah, and Josephus, all agree that the Temple was in that location.

Yes the third temple will reinsitute the Mosaic Sacrificial system. We both know that God does not honor those saxcrifices, but He is still preparing all Israel that is left at the end of the tribulation to be saved according ot His covenant with the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah!

We don't know how many people will live in Israel. We do know that all gentile nations (those who survived the trib and were welcomed into the kingdom in Matt. 25 (the sheep) will live across the globe. They will be required to send an emmisary once a year to Jerusalem Zech. 14:16-19 and keep the feast of tabernacles. If they don't, their land will recieve no rain that year!

As for teh temple, you are correct. The temple could be built and not upset the dome of the rock. Teh dome lies in the outer court or the court of the gentiles.

keras said:
The Jewish sage, Moses Maimonides, known as Rambam, declared that the Temple will be rebuilt and the exiles from around the world gathered back into the Promised Land.
The Messiah will appear and re-establish the glory of King David.

My question to you is this: Why do you accept this literally (as He is simply quoting scripture) but reject when He says the Jews (Israel will be restored in favor of calling the church Israel?

keras said:
Over 40 prophesies describe how God’s holy people, every faithful Christian, will live in peace and security in their own Land. At last, they will be as God originally intended, “a light to the nations”, they will “exemplify My Holiness for all to see”. Ezekiel 39:27-29 [The attack by Gog/ Magog will come during this period]

When you add "every faithful christian" you have added your own private interpretation of that verse! That is forbidden!

keras said:
The whole scenario of the end times, has a logical sequence to it. Now in the latter days,, we can see how things are happening that will see a confederation of Islamic states and entities that will be motivated to get rid of the ‘ cancer ‘ in their midst, that is the State of Israel. The moment of their attack, is the moment that God will intervene. This great Day of the Lord, will take the form of a natural event: a Coronal Mass Ejection, a massive sunstrike of cosmic particles, causing intense heat and electrical storms. The attacking armies will be destroyed by their own weaponry, as they all explode before firing. This literally fulfils the prayer in Psalms 83:13-18

Instead of getting all Hal Lindsay and David wilkerson, why don't you just accept the bowls and trumpets that God said are the events of teh end times?

There will be a confederation that attacks Israel and her people (the Jews) some time in the not too distant future. It will be before the start of the tribulation.

That confederation is headed by Russia
then Lybia, Ethiopia, Persia, Turkey, and some of the istan nations. They will be destroyed by God directly and cause a revival and evangelistic movement in the land of Israel!

keras · Mar 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Sorry but wrong! YOu forgot one little word! IN

15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the Lord, and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God.

Typical KJV mistranslation.
Other Bibles do not have the 'in'.
Those who are now far away will come and help rebuild the Temple.... CJB.
Men from far away will come and work on the rebuilding of the Temple... REB
They all mean that people other than the Jews who occupy Jerusalem now, will do it.
It seems you are nit-picking on this issue. Why?

Re; making sacrifices in the new Temple; Isaiah 56:1-7 is the clearest; we will make sacrifices and offerings again. Ezekiel 40 to 46 describes it.

nolidad said:
My question to you is this: Why do you accept this literally (as He is simply quoting scripture) but reject when He says the Jews (Israeli's), will be restored in favor of calling the church Israel?

When you add "every faithful christian" you have added your own private interpretation of that verse! That is forbidden!

I was not quoting any Bible verse here. We all know of people who are just nominal Christians.

The current inhabitants of all of the holy Land will be gone after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Many prophesies tell us this: Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, those who call themselves Jews and their nation Israel, have no Biblical support for their claims. Romans 2:29, Galatians 6:14-16

nolidad said:
Instead of getting all Hal Lindsay and David wilkerson, why don't you just accept the bowls and trumpets that God said are the events of teh end times?

There will be a confederation that attacks Israel and her people (the Jews) some time in the not too distant future. It will be before the start of the tribulation.

That confederation is headed by Russia
then Lybia, Ethiopia, Persia, Turkey, and some of the istan nations. They will be destroyed by God directly and cause a revival and evangelistic movement in the land of Israel!

The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will happen during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. It will be the Great Tribulation time.
But the Sixth Seal in an event some time before that. It will commence all the prophesied end time events.

The Russian confereration happens at the Gog/Magog attack, which is after the holy land is re-populated by all the Christian peoples. As Ezekiel 38:8 and 12 say. Plus Isaiah 35 and Romans 9:24-27
The Sixth Seal will be triggered by an attack from an Islamic confederation led by Iran. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

ewq1938 · Mar 21, 2020

nolidad said:
I await your evidence to prove that.

Are the priests mortal or immortal during the thousand years?

nolidad · Mar 22, 2020

keras said:
Typical KJV mistranslation.
Other Bibles do not have the 'in'.
Those who are now far away will come and help rebuild the Temple.... CJB.
Men from far away will come and work on the rebuilding of the Temple... REB
They all mean that people other than the Jews who occupy Jerusalem now, will do it.
It seems you are nit-picking on this issue. Why?

Re; making sacrifices in the new Temple; Isaiah 56:1-7 is the clearest; we will make sacrifices and offerings again. Ezekiel 40 to 46 describes it.

Try the Greek.

If I nit pick it is because yo uhave kicked out the Jews from end time fulfilments and have declared the church as Israel. That is an allegorical opinion not supported by Scripture, but by private interpretation.

Believers would not rebuild a temple in the millenium, nor would they offer sacrifices there either.

keras said:
I was not quoting any Bible verse here. We all know of people who are just nominal Christians.

The current inhabitants of all of the holy Land will be gone after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Many prophesies tell us this: Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +
We Christians ARE the Israelites of God, those who call themselves Jews and their nation Israel, have no Biblical support for their claims. Romans 2:29, Galatians 6:14-16

Wrong again !

God has said that Israel will flee the promised land once the abomination of desolation places himself in the holy of holies. Teh Jews who don't will take the mark and end up in the lake of fire.

2/3 of Israel will be killed by the sword and famine and wild beasts, and the remaining third will say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" and bring about Jesus return! These are the "all Israel will be saved" In Romans 11. Also the literal and not allegorical fulfilment of teh New covenant God made with the whole house of Judah and Israel.

keras said:
The 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will happen during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. It will be the Great Tribulation time.
But the Sixth Seal in an event some time before that. It will commence all the prophesied end time events.

The Russian confereration happens at the Gog/Magog attack, which is after the holy land is re-populated by all the Christian peoples. As Ezekiel 38:8 and 12 say. Plus Isaiah 35 and Romans 9:24-27
The Sixth Seal will be triggered by an attack from an Islamic confederation led by Iran. Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12

The Russian confederation has to happen at least 3 1/2 years before the 70th week of Daniel commences. Why? For they burn the weapons of war for 7 years! They will be no need to gather weapons for fuel in the millenial kingdom! Also the allies of the Ezekiel and the Revelation Gog are vastly different.

As for the trumpets and bowls? Yes that is the standard disapensational thought! And I have taught thast way for many years. But about ten years ago I came to realize that the first 5 seals are pre trib events.
Why? For when the sixth seal is opned, then the announcement is made that the DAy of Wrath has begun! In Thess. and all the OT the events of the 70th week in the minor prophets are always called Wrath, or trouble.
We also see the trumpets sound before the narrative of the antichrist and His rule. Then after that narrative and the fall of the city of Babylon we see the 7 bowls poured. but we will know for sure from heaven when we watch these events unfold.

nolidad · Mar 22, 2020

ewq1938 said:
Are the priests mortal or immortal during the thousand years?

Well the priests would be believers and thus immortal.

The believing survivors of the tribulation period will enter the Millennial Kingdom and repopulate the earth! And as it says in Isaiah, someone who is one hundred years old will be as a child! Also people will have till their 100th birthday to receive Christ as Messiah. If they don't, they will be killed by Jesus!

keras · Mar 22, 2020

nolidad said:
If I nit pick it is because yo uhave kicked out the Jews from end time fulfilments and have declared the church as Israel. That is an allegorical opinion not supported by Scripture, but by private interpretation.

The Lord will kick out the fake Israel from the holy Land. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, +

nolidad said:
Believers would not rebuild a temple in the millenium, nor would they offer sacrifices there either.

We will do as God requires. He will want us to make offerings in His holy Temple. Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 40 to 46, Jeremiah 33:11, Zechariah 14:20-21

nolidad said:
Well the priests would be believers and thus immortal.
/QUOTE]

There is no scriptural support for this.
Immortality is only given to those whose names are found in the Book of Life, opened at the GWT Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

ewq1938 · Mar 22, 2020

nolidad said:
If I nit pick it is because yo uhave kicked out the Jews from end time fulfilments and have declared the church as Israel. That is an allegorical opinion not supported by Scripture, but by private interpretation.

That's not correct. The church began with Jews/Israel. The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles into this church. It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel. Gentiles that accept Christ are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.

You claim certain Christians have somehow "kicked out" unbelieving Jews but that isn't true either. God is the one who removed those branches not anyone else.

ewq1938 · Mar 22, 2020

nolidad said:
Well the priests would be believers and thus immortal.

So, can you explain why priests die in the so called Millennium chapters of Ezekiel?

Ezekiel 44:22 Neither shall they take for their wives a widow, nor her that is put away: but they shall take maidens of the seed of the house of Israel, or a widow that had a priest before.

Or perhaps these chapters aren't talking about the future Millennium? If that is true, then the temple described is also not part of the future.

Also, after the resurrection doesn't marriage cease to exist?

Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Nothing about these chapters match what we do know about life in the Millennium after the resurrection.

Ezekiel 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

This is the reason of the vision. It is for Israel to compare themselves and their practices against this vision of what God desires of them. God has always instructed Israel in the right way to live and serve Him, yet Israel usually failed to adhere to God's wishes.

Ezekiel 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

The vision was merely setting a standard whereby the Israelites of the time were to know how everything was supposed to work, and they were to "do them" according to how things were laid out in the vision. The vision was not a look into the future, it is not prophecy. It was what God wanted from that current day Israel or possibly a soon to come Israel that followed God's commandments perfectly according to the old covenant. However, they were not able to meet God's requirements perfectly and never carried forth their lives as God wanted in these chapters, nor did they even build this new temple. It shall not be built as it no longer applies to we that live under the new covenant.

So, despite popular belief, the 40+ chapters of Ezekiel are not the Millennium, and are not of the eternity. It was a vision of how God wanted Israel to live under the old covenant and how to worship Him rather than how they had been doing it. It was a "plumb line" that was meant to be used as a guide. It was not prophecy.

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