Dealing with Liberal Christians

jmldn2 said:

I had a dear friend who was gay. We never discussed his lifestyle but we were close friends. I did not hate him nor find him disgusting as a human being because he was gentle, kind, loyal. I did not believe in his lifestyle and if he had asked me, I would have told him.

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And....it could be, since neither you nor I know, unless we are directly told by the person, he did not do any wrong sexual actions. For instance, he could have been gay and celibate. It's a sin for us if we start guessing at sins in other people we did not directly witness or have them confess about.

Why would that be a sin, to guess at their sins?

Because Christ said we should not:

"Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly." (John 7:24)

Such a wrong is also very often going to include in a 2nd sin which is also a disobedience to a clear command to us from Christ our Lord. -- Matthew 7:1 (or Matthew 7:1-5; or best of all Matthew 7 full chapter).

I don't presume you guessed at his sins he did not confess, but instead I'm trying to talk about right and wrong for all of us in regards to trying to judge other people.

Halbhh said:

Also, we don't condemn people if we are obeying Christ.

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MATTHEW.18: =
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
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1CORINTHIANS.5: =
Immorality Defiles the Church
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

discipler7 said:

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MATTHEW.18: =
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
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1CORINTHIANS.5: =
Immorality Defiles the Church
5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

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We hate the sin and love the sinner.

By the way, did you pay attention to verse 10 in your quote?

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’a For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”


Do you yourself know some lost sinners?

Go and invite them into your home and share a meal with them, love them, get to know them, and in time tell them about Christ Jesus, that they might be saved.

Also, please gain and take in the teaching of Christ I quoted above in post #181 if you haven't already. We are not to guess at people's sins, without knowledge. We are to confess our own sins!

I'm seeing like the entire bible in 5 different versions...this thread is about to get closed y'all lol.

discipler7 said:

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MATTHEW.18: =
Dealing with a Sinning Brother
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector..."

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This verse is not carte blanche permission to confront every sin around you. It is about sins against one Christian by another (15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.) I don't consider someone's homosexuality a sin against me. It is a matter between them and God to sort out. If someone bears false witness against me or steals from me, then we have something to talk about. What s/he does in her/his bedroom, not so much.

Halbhh said:

By the way, did you pay attention to verse 10 in your quote?

10 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’a For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

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1COR.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Monk Brendan said:

The whole idea of "love your neighbor," is to love your neighbor no matter who or what he is. I am willing to bet that you have several friends that are LGBT, but who have not disclosed to you that they are part of that group BECAUSE of your stance on LGBT issues.

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You have zero warrant for your bigoted judgment that i deny that we are to love our neighbor no matter who or what he is, and which i seek to do by the grace of God, as lost neighbors can attest. If anything, I am too soft on things I should speak out against, besides sometimes the drugs and late night noisy (though its called music) parties, or taking more items than I allot (in the interest of equitable distribution) when giving out surplus food, by the grace of God.

One example was a big fella who was dressed in some sort bed sheet and with paint on his face, who professed an eclectic mixture of religions, and whom i engaged in conversation about his needs to salvation thru Christ, but he was treated as others were, and i would have gladly (well, sometimes I can be grumpy, like if they come too late) fixed his bicycle like others for free, by the grace of God. As i would have for you, regardless of your dress, religion or sexual preferences.

But aside from a neighbor across the street and local youth who is very "out" with his homosexuality, and two lesbian daughters of my neighbors, all whom i have only been friendly to (and given them gospel tracts), the other one i know are mostly married. Its the closet Christians whose identity as such i am not sure about.

However, being my neighbor does make one my brother spiritually speaking, which lack of distinction was the issue.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. (1 Corinthians 5:11)

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. (1 Thessalonians 4:1)

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (1 Thessalonians 5:4)

You can use neighbor to mean brethren in the broad sense, but that is not the norm in the NT epistles.

discipler7 said:

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1COR.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

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All, if the list becomes complete. All fall short, and need His redemption. You and me as much as others, of course. One of the wonderful things about the Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor is how it points out to me and to you that we owed 10,000 bags of gold each, which we could never pay on our own.

Halbhh said:

And....it could be, since neither you nor I know, unless we are directly told by the person, he did not do any wrong sexual actions. For instance, he could have been gay and celibate. It's a sin for us if we start guessing at sins in other people we did not directly witness or have them confess about.

Why would that be a sin, to guess at their sins?

Because Christ said we should not:

"Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly." (John 7:24)

Such a wrong is also very often going to include in a 2nd sin which is also a disobedience to a clear command to us from Christ our Lord. -- Matthew 7:1 (or Matthew 7:1-5; or best of all Matthew 7 full chapter).

I don't presume you guessed at his sins he did not confess, but instead I'm trying to talk about right and wrong for all of us in regards to trying to judge other people.

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The salvation of the soul is most critical, though meeting other needs can be more urgent. But in seeking the former, then I do consider the nature of the audience as regards how best to explain things, which is what we see in Acts (such as using Scripture with the Jews and proselytes, and natural revelation with the Gentiles),

If one is a Muslim, a Unitarian, a lost Episcopalian, Catholic, Baptist or Methodist etc., they all have one thing in common, that of being sinners in in desperate need of salvation, which need for some can be realized mostly felt due to conviction of guilt, and for others it is their emptiness.

However, what they particularly believe can become an issue if they seek to deflect the conviction (of what they need to turn from in order to turn to the Lord Jesus) by justifying their false basis for of salvation or lifestyle. This can range from "but I am not a bad person/better than most" to "I was baptized as a" to justifying the homosexual relations.

Telling one how to be saved is not hard, but bringing them to see their desperate need of salvation is the harder work of evangelism. The Spirit of Christ convicts the lost of sin, righteousness and judgment, but mainly uses mortals to do so, and which we can see taking place in Acts 2. But which was relatively easy, given the degree of Scriptural substantiation in word and in power and the nature of the hearers as souls who wanted to please God.

This work of conviction was harder with the intellectual pluralist idolators of Acts 17, as well as a man like Felix, with whom Paul (rather than coaxing him into reciting a sinner's prayer) "reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come," resulting in, "Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee." (Acts 24:25)

But Felix, "behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2 Corinthians 6:2)

Halbhh said:

All fall short, and need His redemption. You and me as much as others, of course.

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MATTHEW.7:6 =
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
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MATTHEW.10: =
Sending Out the Twelve
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Persecutions Are Coming
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.

discipler7 said:

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MATTHEW.7:6 =
6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
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MATTHEW.10: =
Sending Out the Twelve
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.

11 “Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. 12 And when you go into a household, greet it. 13 If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

Persecutions Are Coming
16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.

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Useful scriptures. What brought Matthew 7:6 to mind? There was a thread on this question of what not to share a few days back, and to me the answer is that we are commanded to share the Good News, even if we are killed for it.

But we don't have to share the most precious and more vulnerable things for us right now with just anyone regardless of their attitude. The Gospel of the Good News though is not a vulnerable thing, and not fragile for me, and not one of the things I must be careful whether I share and with who, but it's more like a Fact, like the sun is a fact. There are some other things in the Gospel of John I wouldn't just share with anyone, but only with someone showing a sincere attitude, for example. I have a number of things I've shared with only a couple of my close friends, and one or two things I've not felt I could even share with anyone, and that's ok, none of them are the redeeming Good News we are commanded to tell others.

Yes, it's quite possible there will come a time, again, when we are needing especially to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" in that manner of not getting killed when it's not the best outcome, but slipping away. If it happens the end times come, and Christians here become directly persecuted unto death. It does seem our country is so much safer than many others though now.

discipler7 said:

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But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

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Paul has a point, which we should think about. Christian churches should be visibly better than the outside. By all measures, whether using conservative of liberal standards, must studies show that Christians are no better than those outside. I think in this passage Paul was using a bit of hyperbole. If we threw every sinner out of church, we'd have a lonely church. But still, we should be a light to the world.

Today the only reliable difference between Christians and others are that they are more likely to support Trump and people like him. I think that's a scandal in itself, but Christians should be visible for more than right-wing and worse politics.

For a christian to embrace said lifestyle is like a christian claiming to also embrace satanic rituals. It just doesn't go together, But christians embrace many things today that are unbiblical so nothing surprises me. And people who embrace such things not only confuse the world as to what christians are about, but these people have to stand before God and respond as to why they made the decisions they did.

Now, does this mean christians shouldn't care about people with certain lifestyles? No, of course not. We can still love them while also not accepting their lifestyle. Most churches will let someone in whos of said lifestyle. And what said people do outside of church we can't really do anything about. They have to answer to God for that stuff. We can only love them and pray for a change.

Above all, in dealing with anyone but especially Christians, we must use tact, understanding, and love. If we “go on the attack”, people will get defensive and stand-offish and not listen to what we have to say, even if we make our case air tight and unarguable.

I was once asked to do a Bible study on what happens to us after we die. The lady who requested the study had a son who was murdered, it has been over 5 years and the body has not yet been found. My church is a nondenominational church, actually I should multidenominational. I knew the answer by studying with my former pastor, but I also knew that the lady and others in the church did not share my beliefs. Trying to convince them of what I knew could be difficult so I did how I was taught. I gave about 6 pages (Times New Roman font, size 16, double spaced) of Bible passages dealing with death and our how God handles us. After I was done I then explained what happened Scripturally when we died. I don’t know if they liked or agreed with what I said, but they could not argue with what I had said.

This is the approach we should use explaining issues with others. In the topic of transgenderism, there are many passages in the Bible that deal with homosexuality and the roles of gender. We can give all the Bible passages and tell them what has been told to us. If they still want to argue, tell them they have to take it up with God; you know what the Bible teaches God’s people.

hedrick said:

Paul has a point, which we should think about. Christian churches should be visibly better than the outside. By all measures, whether using conservative of liberal standards, must studies show that Christians are no better than those outside. I think in this passage Paul was using a bit of hyperbole. If we threw every sinner out of church, we'd have a lonely church. But still, we should be a light to the world.

Today the only reliable difference between Christians and others are that they are more likely to support Trump and people like him. I think that's a scandal in itself, but Christians should be visible for more than right-wing and worse politics.

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I think my church is pretty good in terms of the people there. Not perfect, but I'm impressed by how people are relatively conscientious, courteous, and hospitable. Look out in the world and that's hard to find now days, at times. So I think in some ways, churches can do things right. But I think evangelical religion often misses the mark here, because its obsessed with purity. But nobody is pure: the line between good and evil goes straight through the human heart.

hedrick said:

I think in this passage Paul was using a bit of hyperbole. If we threw every sinner out of church, we'd have a lonely church. But still, we should be a light to the world.

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2CORINTHIANS.6: =
Be Holy
11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open.

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”

17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”

discipler7 said:

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14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

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Indeed. This is not, of course, about disagreements within the Church. In those areas Paul counsels toleration. Including meat sacrificed to idols, which to conservatives raised the most serious of possible moral issues: idolatry. But this is, again, a claim that there should be a radical difference between Christians and unbelievers. It also warns Christians against supporting immoral people in hopes of furthering something like a political agenda.

discipler7 said: ↑
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But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person

hedrick said:

I think in this passage Paul was using a bit of hyperbole. If we threw every sinner out of church, we'd have a lonely church. But still, we should be a light to the world.

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Wrong again. Paul was not using a bit of hyperbole in excluding these, while it is you who exaggerates this to mean throwing every sinner out of church, which is not what he expressed. All the sins listed here as referring to impenitent practitioners are primary things of action (or manifested by them) over which we should have the most control, versus something like a quick temper, struggling with cigarettes, or against over eating, etc.

In contrast to excommunication of those such as the impenitent incestuous practitioner in 1Co. 5, we have the instructions, Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. (Galatians 6:1)

By all measures, whether using conservative of liberal standards, must studies show that Christians are no better than those outside...

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Wrong again if going by what survey report Christian profess (what they practice is harder to document), for consistent with your liberalism, unlike surveys, your statement lumps Christians together as an amalgam of those who are in manifest basic contrast to how the source of that term describes them with those who basically do.

For instance, Orthodox (29%), Mainline Churches (28%), and Catholics (27%) led Christian Churches in affirming that the Scriptures were written by men and were not the word of God, versus just and 7% of Evangelical Churches, who instead rightly affirm its full inspiration of God. - U.S. Religious landscape survey; 2008 The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Religious Landscape Study

This alone is a manifest difference btwn NT Christians and those called by that name, as well as the disparity of beliefs under that name today, to which can be added such findings as that,

40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59%. - Catholics Similar to Mainstream on Abortion, Stem Cells

50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. - Ellison Research, March 11, 2008 http://ellisonresearch.com/releases/20080311.htm

39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist American Christians affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful. LifeWay (SBC) Research study, released Wednesday. 2008 LifeWay Research study. - Survey: Americans Divided on Homosexuality as Sin

In a 2010 LifeWay Research survey 77 percent of American Protestant pastors (57% of mainline versus 87% evangelical) strongly disagree with same-sex marriage, with 6% percent somewhat disagreeing, and 5% being somewhat in agreement and 10 percent strongly agreeing. (5% of evangelical).

99% of Protestant pastors who hold to very conservative theology strongly disagree that homosexual marriage should be legal, with 98% also describing themselves as pro-life, and of such 98 percent strongly agree with the statement "Our church considers Scripture to be the authority for our church and our lives." Among pastors who do not strongly disagree that gay marriage should be legal, 71 percent said they agreed with the above affirmation, as well as 65% of pro-choice pastors (three-fourths of all Protestant pastors surveyed said they are pro-life). - LifeWay Research

64% of white evangelical Protestants [blacks make up 6% of all evangelicals] believe abortion should be illegal in all or most cases, as do 52% of Hispanic Catholics, and 41% of white Catholics, and 39% of black Protestants, and 31% of white mainline Protestants. - http://www.pewforum.org/2013/01/16/public-opinion-on-abortion-slideshow/

26 percent of Catholics (2007) polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivocal position on abortion. - Catholic World Report; survey of 1,000 Catholic Americans by Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut; http://www.adoremus.org/397-Roper.html

Of abortion patients who reported a religious affiliation—24% were Catholic, 17% were mainline Protestant, 13% were evangelical Protestant and 8% identified with some other religion. Thirty-eight percent of patients had no religious affiliation. - https://www.guttmacher.org/report/characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014

After 2,500 face-to-face, in-depth interviews with students on seven campuses, Donna Freitas, a college lecturer and author of Sex and the Soul, found (2008) that less than 20 percent of students at public schools considered themselves virgins, but a startling 80 percent of students at evangelical schools considered themselves virgins. - http://www.christianitytoday.com/women/2017/june/why-are-evangelical-women-planned-parenthood.html

Evangelicals supported Mr. Romney 81% to 17% over Mr. Obama (a smaller percentage for the Republican candidate than in previous years). Born again Christians who are not evangelicals supported Romney 56% to 43% over the incumbent. Catholics supported Mr. Obama by 57% to 42% — the largest margin since Bill Clinton topped Bob Dole by 21 points in 1996. Protestant overall voted 57% to 42% in favor of Mr. Romney. - http://www.barna.org/culture-articles/595-the-role-of-faith-in-the-2012-election

Ninety-six percent of African-American voters chose (abortion) Jones over Moore, "and the vast majority of those people self-identify, according to exit polling, as evangelical or born-again." - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...cal-voters-in-alabama/?utm_term=.5517d8376d6b

Today the only reliable difference between Christians and others are that they are more likely to support Trump and people like him. I think that's a scandal in itself, but Christians should be visible for more than right-wing and worse politics

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That is overall true, but it is not a scandal, for this is something you can quantify, versus the % of Christians who feed the needy, do not steal, murder (besides abortion and not infecting people with HIV) drive while drunk, etc.


However,

The amount that churches are giving overseas in goods and services to developing (“Third World”) countries amounts to $8.8 billion. This figures out to be nearly 40 percent of the foreign aid provided by the United States to the same region. U.S. foreign aid to those same countries is $23.5 billion. Carol Adelman of the Hudson Institute, from Notre Dame University study. http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=118566

On average, weekly churchgoers donate 3.8% of their income to charity, compared to 0.8% for those who never go. Independent Sector (charitable clearing house): Atheists won't save Europe by Don Feder; http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=27937

Including religious households, American households overall gave 3.5% of their income to charity, with approx. 33% going to religious institutions. Utah was the state with the highest average per-capita charitable contributions, followed by Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee and Arkansas. Professor Arthur Brooks, 2005. http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2005/February/200502181639511CJsamohT5.593508e-02.html

To substantiate your "no difference" assertion, you need to provide the details in morality on this, and the stats that show no difference btwn those who overall (not just some youth) at least hold to Scripture as the wholly inspired accurate word of God, versus the rest.

I will not hold my breath.

hedrick said:

Indeed. This is not, of course, about disagreements within the Church. In those areas Paul counsels toleration. Including meat sacrificed to idols, which to conservatives raised the most serious of possible moral issues: idolatry. But this is, again, a claim that there should be a radical difference between Christians and unbelievers. It also warns Christians against supporting immoral people in hopes of furthering something like a political agenda.

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That indicates ignorance of why a political agenda can be furthered for moral reasons and thus an immoral person can be supported. The story (if not certain) is told those who protested to Pres. Lincoln that General Grant drank whiskey to excess, to which Lincoln's responded by asking what brand it was, “Because, if it makes him win victories like this at Vicksburg, I will send a demijohn of the same kind to every general in the army.”

Faced with lack of a better choice then you must go with the best one there is to achieve the desired end, including the moral one.

Both left and right have a political agenda based upon ideological goals, and to impugn Christians for having one is absurd, for the lack of one would be contrary to effectual faith in the Lord Jesus, which means not only to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but [also[ rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11) And in that interest one may need to choose btwn two immoral persons in seeking the moral high ground, and it is absurd is to infer that doing so is necessarily contrary to the Christian morality.

Likely your remark was a dig at Christians who voted for Trump, yet not only was he the most reluctantly-voted-for Pres. candidate by "bible Christians" (at least evang. pastors, according to a poll of them), but after 8 years of an over-the-top fundamentally immoral basically anti-American Liberal, and an fundamentally immoral candidate he himself put down, with a lot of baggage, and who expressed animosity toward evangelical types, then who were they to vote for?

Those who equate (alleged, but most likely true in some cases) philandering in high places with those who support abortion, the homosexual agenda, and increasing European-type persecution of all who will not salute its flag, etc., are simply not judging Biblically or objectively.

As for lying, Hillary and Trump both have that in the bag. Had Pence (quite an article on him in the Atlantic) been the GOP Pres. candidate, he would likely have gotten 92% of the white evangelical vote.

discipler7 said:

17 My God will cast them away,
Because they did not obey Him;
And they shall be wanderers among the nations.

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Boy howdy! That's really showing a neighborly attitude. May God bless you just as richly!