Dealing with Liberal Christians

[Deadworm]

Lybrah: "What does it say in the bible about transgenderism?"

Nothing directly, but consider this: the Bible does not reject nonheterosexual sex orientation as such, but only same-sex lustful sex acts. The Bible never considers the possibility of 2 gay men who genuinely love each other. But here is the important neglected point: in Matthew 19:12 Jesus refers without judgment to "eunuchs from birth," a rabbinic euphemism for men who, for whatever reason, are not sexually attracted to other men:

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others-and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

 

[FireDragon76]

Most of the cases of regret I have heard of have been due to religious pressure. There was a case like that in Florida I read about years ago and it ended in the individual becoming angry at the church that payed for the cosmetic reversal. Regret of regret, basically.

I think this is opening up Christians to alot of potential liability and ill-will so it is something people should be careful about. We should focus on supporting people in getting appropriate psychological and medical help to deal with their problems, not manipulating people to live up to our expectations.

 

[discipler7]

Seems, the liberal Christians are trying to bring back Sodom and Gomorrah by giving tacit approval to such homosexual/LGBTQ sinners/evildoers.

ROMANS.1: =
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[seeking.IAM]

This is anecdotal, not statistical. I am friends with a U.C.C. pastor who has several trans persons in his congregation. He says he has seen many of them change back because it is such a difficult road for them to travel due to the social stigma and rejection they encounter.

 

[FireDragon76]

This is anecdotal, not statistical. I am friends with a U.C.C. pastor who has several trans persons in his congregation. He says he has seen many of them change back because it is such a difficult road for them to travel due to the social stigma and rejection they encounter.

I think there is a difference as well between someone who is working through gender dysphoria and attempting to understand themselves, and someone with a stable gender identity who has lived that way for years. Of course more awareness leads to more people questioning their own gender identity, but that doesn't mean everybody who is questioning actually will be comfortable transitioning. There are medical and psychological gatekeepers for a reason, it would be unethical to administer medical treatments without a clear benefit to the patient.

 

[badatusernames]

Now imagine you had a similar experience with a friend who realized that they were gay. It's these kinds of experiences that are changing Christians' minds.

But should they? Should we stick with tradition, and tell people that they are called to make sacrifices? Read Mark 2:23-28. He uses the example of David violating the Law because he's hungry to support helping people on the Sabbath. Because of the example of David, you can't argue that this passage is just about the Sabbath. It is a general policy that we should be willing to make exceptions where people's welfare is at stake. I think it's pretty clear that Paul had never been presented with cases that called for exceptions. In both Rom and 1 Cor he was speaking of pagan sexuality.

I was around when we explained to our church members the change in PCUSA policy on gays. Many of them were really happy. Not because suddenly we were politically correct, or because we imagined that many liberals would suddenly join our Church. No, they told us that they had friends or relatives who were gay.

Very well said, and it sounds like you are a part of a very wise congregation. My church is non-denominational, however, a couple of years ago reached a similar conclusion: Love is more about support than being right, and we formally adopted a policy, not of affirming gay relationships, but welcoming loving everyone regardless if they're sexual orientation or gender identity. I don't know if my pastor is Side A or Side B because he just doesn't talk about it in services. We had a similar result, a few left, but most were happy. I don't mean to brag, however, God has blessed us with new members joining, not because we were politically correct or liberal, but because people found a loving community.

 

[FireDragon76]

Very well said, and it sounds like you are a part of a very wise congregation. My church is non-denominational, however, a couple of years ago reached a similar conclusion: Love is more about support than being right, and we formally adopted a policy, not of affirming gay relationships, but welcoming loving everyone regardless if they're sexual orientation or gender identity. I don't know if my pastor is Side A or Side B because he just doesn't talk about it in services. We had a similar result, a few left, but most were happy. I don't mean to brag, however, God has blessed us with new members joining, not because we were politically correct or liberal, but because people found a loving community.

That is the position of my own congregation, more or less. In fact most liberal mainline congregations actually take a similar stance. It's a myth that somehow this is unusual or something radically new, the reality is that we as a denomination, the ELCA, merely decided to stop the hypocrisy and recognize the situation as it stands back in 2009. Other liberal denominations are similar.

 

[badatusernames]

I think there is a difference as well between someone who is working through gender dysphoria and attempting to understand themselves, and someone with a stable gender identity who has lived that way for years. Of course more awareness leads to more people questioning their own gender identity, but that doesn't mean everybody who is questioning actually will be comfortable transitioning. There are medical and psychological gatekeepers for a reason, it would be unethical to administer medical treatments without a clear benefit to the patient.

It's kind of a double edge sword. I do think we may see a rise in sex change regret as more people are questioning their own identities and such, which will bring back tighter restrictions. One one hand, this will prevent future sex change regret and discourage "transtrenders", but on the other hand, it may also discourage those who do need hormones and further treatment to manage their dysphoria.

This is anecdotal, not statistical. I am friends with a U.C.C. pastor who has several trans persons in his congregation. He says he has seen many of them change back because it is such a difficult road for them to travel due to the social stigma and rejection they encounter.

Exaclty! I recently heard a great quote "You don't get to pick your causes". I am a clinical psychology grad student, and if you had told me when I switched to being a psych major "You're going to be going to grad school to help gender dysphoric persons and be an advocate for their community", I'd laugh you out of my face. So many of them I've met, their treatment from others just makes their situation and condition worse. I'm in a liberal part of the country and just recently knew someone who was assaulted (not only that, the person stalked her the night before) at a train station for just being transgender.

 

[lastofall]

Such does not exist, and those that support such are not at all Christians, for until now they know not the true Jesus Christ, but only a Jesus of their own making.

 

[Monk Brendan]

"LGBT brothers?" One who sanctions this is not a brother in Christ, while love for neighbor comes after love for God, by which what love for neighbor means is defined. And i can hardly claim to love my neighbor as myself if i do not seek to save them from a belief or practice that will send them to an eternal Hell and likely to an early grave unless they come to the Lord Jesus in repentant faith.

The whole idea of "love your neighbor," is to love your neighbor no matter who or what he is. I am willing to bet that you have several friends that are LGBT, but who have not disclosed to you that they are part of that group BECAUSE of your stance on LGBT issues.

 

[jmldn2]

Could you please give us that precise verse? There is definitely a verse in Leviticus chapter 18 about intercourse sodomy we know (verse 22 and also confirmed in the verb in verse 23, see post #88 just above), a specific sexual sin, for a man to have sexual intercourse with a man as with a woman, and that also this same sin is sometimes does by traditional male/female couples (Romans 1:26). But where is the verse you have in mind for that precise thing you say, or do you mean to 'lie' with to be sexual intercourse, just like in Lev 18:22?

Yes there are many OT verses pointing to the sin of male or female having sexual intercourse with their own same sex. The NT did not change what God said in the OT about homosexual living.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes there are many OT verses pointing to the sin of male or female having sexual intercourse with their own same sex. The NT did not change what God said in the OT about homosexual living.

It's actually the sodomy intercourse that is the sin being said in the OT. Look at Lev 18:22, 23, and in several translations (but not the inaccurate paraphrase of the New Living Translation which is known to have various errors), good ones like the ESV or Young's Literal Translation, and see. I fully quoted them in post #88, so you have no excuse not to just look and see, plainly.

It's also a sin a heterosexual couple can do also, as in Romans 1:26. If your pastor doesn't know this, he is not doing his homework, and can be preaching a non-Biblical idea such as preaching against simply being 'gay' (even if celibate), etc.

 

[discipler7]

The whole idea of "love your neighbor," is to love your neighbor no matter who or what he is. I am willing to bet that you have several friends that are LGBT, but who have not disclosed to you that they are part of that group BECAUSE of your stance on LGBT issues.

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MATTHEW.5:43 = ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

ROMANS.9:13 = 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

HOSEA.9: =
15 “All their wickedness is in Gilgal,
For there I hated them.
Because of the evil of their deeds
I will drive them from My house;
I will love them no more.
All their princes are rebellious.
16 Ephraim is stricken,
Their root is dried up;
They shall bear no fruit.
Yes, were they to bear children,
I would kill the darlings of their womb.”

17 My God will cast them away,
Because they did not obey Him;
And they shall be wanderers among the nations.

 

[badatusernames]

.
MATTHEW.5:43 = ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

ROMANS.9:13 = 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

HOSEA.9: =
15 “All their wickedness is in Gilgal,
For there I hated them.
Because of the evil of their deeds
I will drive them from My house;
I will love them no more.
All their princes are rebellious.
16 Ephraim is stricken,
Their root is dried up;
They shall bear no fruit.
Yes, were they to bear children,
I would kill the darlings of their womb.”

17 My God will cast them away,
Because they did not obey Him;
And they shall be wanderers among the nations.

And here are those verses in context....

1) "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48

2) The message of Romans 9 is talking about that is up to God who he saves and who he condemns, and we have no choice or influence on the matter, it's up to God, not us. However, in Chapter 10 Paul goes into how God has chosen everyone. A big theme and point in writing Romans was about reconciliation.

3) First off, the I speaking is Hosea. God never refers to Himself as "My God". Secondly, the next two chapters are about Israel being redeemed and God's love for Israel. Thirdly, Hosea's entire story is a metaphor about God's unconditional love for His people.

Do not use scripture to promote or justify hatred...

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."
1 John 4:7‭-‬21

 

[discipler7]

It's actually the sodomy intercourse that is the sin being said in the OT. Look at Lev 18:22, 23, and in several translations (but not the inaccurate paraphrase of the New Living Translation which is known to have various errors), good ones like the ESV or Young's Literal Translation, and see. I fully quoted them in post #88, so you have no excuse not to just look and see, plainly.

.
1CORINTHIANS.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

ROMANS.1: =
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

 

[discipler7]

Do not use scripture to promote or justify hatred...

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MATTHEW.21: =
Jesus Cleanses the Temple
12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”
.
.
REVELATION.2: =
The Corrupt Church
18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—

as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

 

[Halbhh]

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1CORINTHIANS.6: = 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

ROMANS.1: =
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

I cannot find a translation that reads exactly what you quoted for 1 Cor 6:9.

Here is the verse accurately:

ESV -- "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,"

NIV -- "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men"

These both refer to intercourse sodomy.

Romans 1:26 refers to women who choose to participate in intercourse sodomy with men.

Romans 1:27 refers to the sin of intercourse sodomy between men.

It's a sin if it's between 2 men, and it's a sin if it is between a man and a woman.

Notice that 1 Cor 6:9 is only 1/2 of a sentence.
Here is the rest:
"...10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

We are not to be revilers of other people. We don't revile 'gay' people as if they are doing a sin we don't know for sure whether they are doing.
Also, we don't condemn people if we are obeying Christ.

Instead we only point out that intercourse sodomy is wrong, and is one of the specific sexual immoralities none should do, gay or straight.

Why can't we just add new sins, like merely being gay as a sin?

Here's why we cannot:

"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." -- Deu 4:2

 

[jmldn2]

We are to love every one for one reason, God commands it. This does not mean we have to love their actions, but we are to care about them because it is commanded. I despise all the hate and atrocities committed by some but I pray for their everlasting souls.

 

[jmldn2]

I had a dear friend who was gay. We never discussed his lifestyle but we were close friends. I did not hate him nor find him disgusting as a human being because he was gentle, kind, loyal. I did not believe in his lifestyle and if he had asked me, I would have told him.

 

[Questioning Brother]

There is ONLY room in the Bible for Cisgender. Cisgender is the state of identifying as your biological gender, ie a biological male identifying himself as male or a biological female identifying herself as female. In other words: normal.