Dealing with Liberal Christians

[GingerBeer]

The early results make it look like Alabaman evangelicals voted for immoral values. That's one religion I will not be joining. The Liberal Christians have a far better grasp on moral values than Alabaman evangelicals.

 

[salt-n-light]

Christianity. The patterns are there. The only thing that remains permanant to this world is child bearing and the means to obtain it.

Even that is about to be up in the air since transgender women (men) can now opt to get an implanted womb to breed their own kid.

‘You could do it tomorrow’: How soon is ‘soon’ for trans women wanting to give birth?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

My thought(s) on the subject is unless the person is born transgender, it is a non-issue, and people even considering changing gender for other reasons, are in deep rebellion against their Creator, it is akin to saying God made a mistake about what gender they would be at birth. Could this be related to original sin? Perhaps the same could be said of all sin. As serious as it is, changing one's gender is not the unpardonable sin, which is to say that not all sins are equal nor necessarily carry the same consequences, both on earth and in Heaven. I know little details about differences in Heavenly judgments, only that they should produce a healthy fear of God, in the hearts of His creation.

 

[MournfulWatcher]

I wanted to address the transgender part of your post, since this is something I have struggled with as well but have found myself coming to a new conclusion.

Transgenderism is the result of gender dysphoria, a mental illness that causes people to go through mental and emotional distress because they feel that they are supposed to be the gender opposite of what they are physically. It's important for Christians to realize that this is a real thing and something that causes people much suffering, and we should treat people with this mental illness with kindness and respect.

Like any other mental illness, gender dysphoria runs on a spectrum of severity, just like one person who has an anxiety disorder may have it more or less severe than someone with the same disorder. Some people who have anxiety (such as myself) don't have it badly enough that it needs medication, and can get along fine with counselling. Some anxious people, however, may have it so badly that they require medication along with counseling.

Gender dysphoria can be similar; it's not necessarily as severe for one person as it for another. I was reading an article on transgenderism by a Christian psychologist and counselor who was basically writing that people with gender dysphoria should be treated no differently by the Church than people with depression or anxiety; some people struggle with mental health in this life, and that is simply what God is allowing us to bear with His help. The counselor spoke of some people she had treated who had gender dysphoria, some of who were actually married to the opposite sex, and that she offered them treatment that was as least invasive as possible. For example, one man she was counselling was married but has struggled all his life with feeling like he should be a woman. He was advised that on particularly bad days he should do something to make him feel more feminine in order to cope, and so he would wear makeup when the dysphoria was particularly bad.

The problem I think we're seeing in society is that we are immediately telling people with gender dysphoria that the answer to all their problems is to get a surgery, and lie to themselves that they are the opposite gender. I personally think this is making it worse; the suicide rate for trans people before and after surgery is no different. Surgery is not fixing the problem, and that's where I think the Church has to draw the line; do not condemn people with gender dysphoria, but do not lie to people and tell them they aren't what they actually are.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Fair enough, though I suppose if a child waits until a sex change to stat wearing the clothes of the other sex, that they can claim they are not breaking the O.T. admonition. Also, many would claim that Christians are not obligated to honor the O.T. laws, other than the Ten Commandments. Again, everyone, I personally have deep reservations about this entire subject. However, I am not certain that it is fair for us to condemn it on moral grounds. I guess I would say what Pope Francis said on the airplane, early on in his reign, when he replied to the press by saying, "Who am I to judge?", though in his case I thought it was a strange statement..

As with cannibalism, sound theology can be derived based on sure principal, that of separation and union. From the time separated light from darkness see separation in Scripture, and from the time God joined male and female we see sanctioned union.

God God made man and women distinctively different yet uniquely compatible and complementary, and only joined them together in marriage - as the Lord Jesus Himself specified - and only condemned homosexual relations wherever they are manifestly dealt with.

Part of this distinctive differentiation is manifestly anatomical, and while we can seek to restore normal functionality in the case of deformations, we are not to try to make a female into a male any more than we are to make her into a gorilla (which is coming).

The reason behind the censure against wearing clothes belonging to a different gender is that the distinctive clothes reflects the anatomical differentiation, though it may vary from culture to culture.

Also, despite what liberal "egalitarians" imagine, God made positional/functional distinctions.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

The early results make it look like Alabaman evangelicals voted for immoral values. That's one religion I will not be joining. The Liberal Christians have a far better grasp on moral values than Alabaman evangelicals.

So you mean thy have voting for one who supports murdering infants, or one who for almost the last 40 years has been characterized by philandering? I did not know the latter was running, so it must be the former. Wonder if he drinks as well.

 

[badatusernames]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

I'm not liberal, or really conservative for that matter, but a mix. I don't believe in ideologies, but truth and justice. I would consider myself economically liberal, socially more libertarian, but theologically more conservative....

Abortion
I personally believe abortion is murder and should be outlawed, but I'm also skeptical that would actually reduce the number of abortions.

Gay Rights
As a side B Christian, I think that same-sex relationships are sinful, however, I believe that same-sex marriage should be legal because I don't think it's the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults want to sleep with or marry because it's an equal rights issue to me. In today's world, there's a lot more to being married than just a ceremony and the relationship after it, there's tax benefits, hospital visitation rights, estate rights, death rights, etc.

Transgender
I saved this for last because I used to be very against transgender people. This just seemed completely wrong to me more than anything else, and I was appalled at it. It was a choice people chose for whatever reason, I didn't know, and I didn't want to know why. I believed it was sinful to be transgender, transition, etc. because scripture speaks against deceptive crossdressing and it's just telling God that He made a mistake.

Then, I come back from Spring Break my senior year of college to my best friend in this weird state of frantic, yet distraught depressive and anxious state. They had gone home for his last Spring Break, and I asked what happened. They told me that they came out to their family as transgender after years of struggling with it, and his family wanted nothing to do with them anymore. I didn't know what to say or do, I said that I would help them through this struggle. They broke down crying, I had never seen them cry before, saying that they had tried so hard to be not even a Godly man, but just a man and just couldn't, and was done wearing a mask. I asked them if their therapist knew (I knew he had had depression, a common comorbid condition, for years), and they said yes, in fact, one of their diagnoses was "Gender Dysphoria". Looking back on it, there were definitely very subtle signs that it was there when we were growing up together, and it did always seem like something was bothering them or at least on their mind. They said something to me that stuck with me that night "I would rather lose everyone and everything than live with this. I want to experience those things called peace and joy that everyone else keeps talking about." Yes, they are a Christian.

Anyway, the started hormones early the next fall and it was like night and day immediately. Everyone who knew them could immediately tell there was a difference. My best friend talked a lot about noticing that there was this mental clarity and peace they'd never felt before. There was one day they said something else I'll never forget "This is what this joy thing everyone keeps talking about it." She's now in a much better place than she ever had been as male, nobody who has kept in touch wishes or wants the male version back. We all love her because it's so much better for her. She feels closer to Christ, her relationship with God has never been better. She is celibate and doesn't date because she believes that same-sex relationships are wrong, though we all joke with her she should find a nice transman, but she's not into men. Over those months, I realized that I, and quite frankly, the entire conservative position on it has it wrong. I've met a few other Christian transgender people through her and they all have similar stories of struggling with their identity in Christ and their dysphoria, and other transgender people through her. All of them have said the only thing that made their dysphoria better is transitioning.

The way my best friend understand her dysphoria is that it's a perfect. Specifically, it's a physical birth defect with psychological symptoms that now that she has transitioned are completely gone. They've been doing a lot of research on this, and what they've found is that the brains of transgender individuals tend are shaped more like the brains of the sex they identify as, as opposed to the sex they were assigned at birth (in other words, MtF's have female-shaped brains and FtM's have male shaped brains). I do think that she is quite accurate in her description, it does seem to be some kind of birth defect.

 

[badatusernames]

Good that you didn't say such. Was it lurking in the wings waiting to come on stage later when the discussion gets around to an intersexed person choosing a mate and marrying?

I'm actually dating an intersex woman. She has CAIS, so is genetically male, but her body can't process andorgens so she was born, developed, and has always identified as female.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Separating pure from impure and having neat categories for everything is something Jews did in the Old Testament.

Actuaoy it was almighty GOD who commanded them to make a "difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean," (Leviticus 10:10) and will yet do it And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean. (Ezekiel 44:23)

When this pertains to the ceremonial law then it typifies the moral law, thus while the Gentiles, prefigured by unclean things, are no longer to be considered unclean, yet they and all much repent from immorality which makes you defiled.

I don't see that as significant to the religious ethic Jesus preached. Jesus didn't seem interested in purity all that much

.
Really? Despite what your may not see, the Lord placed emphasis on moral cleanness:

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23)

He seemed more interested in authenticity and compassion.

A false dichotomy. The Lord wanted both, and as He said by His Spirit:

And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. (Jude 22-23)

My own religious tradition does not emphasize the purity of Christians

Then it is contrary to the "religious tradition" (Christian faith) of the NT church, if you actually read all the epistles and Revelation, which clearly emphasized the moral purity of Christians, and condemning "ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 4)

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. (Ephesians 5:3-6)

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: (Colossians 3:5-6)

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (Revelation 2:20)

For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

Thus the NT church is not one which "does not emphasize the purity of Christians" like yours.

in fact our faith is that we are impure but that God accepts us anyways because of Jesus sacrifice, and that we cannot make ourselves pure or holy through our own strength or will, but God gives these things to us as a free gift.

Another false dichotomy, for this is not an either/or situation, but while no one obtains acceptance with God based on their own holiness, as instead effectual faith is counted for righteousness, (Rm. 4:5,6) with faith being what purifies the heart (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9) resulting in one being positionally seated with Christ in Heaven. (Eph. 2:6)

Yet the only kind of faith which is salvific is that which effects works, producing evidence of faith, with works continually justifying one as being a believer, (Heb. 6:9; Ja, 2:14-26) Thus to continually impenitently live immorally is to deny the faith, (1 Timothy 5:8) since what we do manifests what we really believe. And to believe in one called the Lord Jesus means one seeks to obey Him, and thus repent when convicted of being or acting contrary to that.

It is only these to whom the promise of eternal life pertains, not one who claims faith in a promise abstract from who and what the one who made it is, and who said:

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:26-28)

And thus those who were impenitently practicing known sin is the command given,

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Rather than simple profession of faith being salvific regardless of how one lives, believers are warned against falling from grace, making Christ of "no effect," to "no profit," "departing from the living God," drawing "back unto perdition," etc. (Galatians 5:1-5; Hebrews 3:12; 10:25-39)

And are exhorted to add to their faith virtue, etc. to "give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. (2 Peter 1:10)

And i have a long ways to go in that list.

All one must do is truly believe, with Biblical effectual faith which means obedience will follow, though the actual effects themselves do not earn or obtains salvation, but are evidence of saving faith, and will be rewarded under grace, though we only really deserve damnation.

Too tired for proof reading.

 

[Acad]

Sorry, but I need advice and opinions here. What does it say in the bible about transgenderism? I ask this because I have seen many Christians embrace this transgenderism thing, as well as inclusion for LGBTQ people and acceptance. Please do not interpret this is gay bashing or hate, I just feel perplexed because I know that God made humans both man and woman, and that there is no such thing as "cisgender" and such. But now everyone seems to believe that there can be male brains in female bodies and vice versa. If its mental illness, how are we supposed to gracefully dialogue with Christians who seem to think "love is love" and that picking your gender is normal? I don't want to judge at all and say they are not Christians, because I know I suck at being a Christian sometimes. I don't want to make enemies. But I actually get angry seeing people I respect embrace this madness and even tolerate abortion and gay marriage. How can I react? How do I know I am not doing the devil's work by rejecting that behavior?

Just stand on the unyielding rock that is Jesus Christ and base your faith on him. Read your Bible and pray for these people. Liberal Christians don't base their faith on the Bible but base their beliefs on the changing winds of public opinion which is usually informed by an anti-Christian mainstream press and politicians. All these people(press, politicians etc) are usually paid or owned by rich donors many of whom live very anti-Christian lives. The press intentionally suppress anything science or information that is opposed to their agenda and present a glossy picture of filth and sin. In terms of transgenderism, look up Sex Change Regret for an alternative viewpoint or the case of Nathan/Nancy Verhels. There is a lot of junk science going on. Even Jazz Jennings because he started taking hormones from an early age does not have enough material to do the bottom surgery. A delusion has spread among these people and they will accept anything because they don't rely on God's word but believe people who have an agenda. One thing you have to realize is that anti-christian beliefs lead to physical or spiritual death in the end and sometimes it takes a while for those sins to be fully realized. The free love of the 60/70s led to the AIDs panic of the 80s, the objectification of women, elevation of Hugh Hefner, and lack of sexual restraint among men has now led to the sexual misconduct panic going on today. Imagine if you had followed what these people said on sexual ethics in the 70s as a man, only for these same people to turn against you today when you are accused of sexual misconduct. Look at Brett Ratner now whose idol was Hugh Hefner as an example. You can either pray for these people that God will lift the veil from their eyes, show them counter evidence or just avoid talking about these subjects all together to maintain peace. I understand where you are coming from because I feel that It's actually liberal Christians who empower anti-Christian people to harass Christians who don't waver in their beliefs(see the case of the baker who didn't want to make a special cake for a gay marriage even though he was willing to sell them a generic cake, or many other Christians whose lives and businesses have been ruined by taking a stand for their beliefs.) and help the enemy to spread lies. Pray for them and avoid arguments with them. And to be on the cautious side, avoid having posts or comments in print which can later be used against you calling you some type of 'phobe'.

 

[Acad]

I would emigrate too! The sad thing is that slowly but surely, many countries are following suit.

I actually want to leave the US because of this nonsense because it's just the beginning of a floodgate. But of we keep on emigrating then we will eventually be backed into a corner with no place to go.

 

[Acad]

OP asks how to deal with other Christians who support things OP considers to be sin. True, the Bible says Christians are to confront their brethren who have fallen into sin. If OP does that I hope it is done calmly, with sensitivity, and with an absence of malice. Then there is that other thing about the admonition to the disciples that if people didn't listen to them, they were to shake the dust from their sandals and move on. The point is some people will not listen to you, you won't win every argument, and there is a time to move on. Expressing an opinion is one thing; beating a dead horse is another.

Still, I have to say this as I have in many threads on this topic. I continually find it curious that this issue gets so much of some Christians attention. It is like we have decided this is the only sin worth talking about. Where are all the threads about how to talk to our fellow Christians about divorce, greed, not taking care of widows and orphans, casual heterosexual relationships, etc?

Shouldn't we straight people be more concerned about straight people sins?

Because those sins are already considered sins. We are talking about issues that liberal Christians are now saying are no longer wrong. If liberal Christians started saying murder was okay, it would become an issue too. It's actually why abortion is an issue.

 

[Acad]

I'm not liberal, or really conservative for that matter, but a mix. I don't believe in ideologies, but truth and justice. I would consider myself economically liberal, socially more libertarian, but theologically more conservative....

Abortion
I personally believe abortion is murder and should be outlawed, but I'm also skeptical that would actually reduce the number of abortions.

Gay Rights
As a side B Christian, I think that same-sex relationships are sinful, however, I believe that same-sex marriage should be legal because I don't think it's the government's job to enforce who two consenting adults want to sleep with or marry because it's an equal rights issue to me. In today's world, there's a lot more to being married than just a ceremony and the relationship after it, there's tax benefits, hospital visitation rights, estate rights, death rights, etc.

Transgender
I saved this for last because I used to be very against transgender people. This just seemed completely wrong to me more than anything else, and I was appalled at it. It was a choice people chose for whatever reason, I didn't know, and I didn't want to know why. I believed it was sinful to be transgender, transition, etc. because scripture speaks against deceptive crossdressing and it's just telling God that He made a mistake.

Then, I come back from Spring Break my senior year of college to my best friend in this weird state of frantic, yet distraught depressive and anxious state. They had gone home for his last Spring Break, and I asked what happened. They told me that they came out to their family as transgender after years of struggling with it, and his family wanted nothing to do with them anymore. I didn't know what to say or do, I said that I would help them through this struggle. They broke down crying, I had never seen them cry before, saying that they had tried so hard to be not even a Godly man, but just a man and just couldn't, and was done wearing a mask. I asked them if their therapist knew (I knew he had had depression, a common comorbid condition, for years), and they said yes, in fact, one of their diagnoses was "Gender Dysphoria". Looking back on it, there were definitely very subtle signs that it was there when we were growing up together, and it did always seem like something was bothering them or at least on their mind. They said something to me that stuck with me that night "I would rather lose everyone and everything than live with this. I want to experience those things called peace and joy that everyone else keeps talking about." Yes, they are a Christian.

Anyway, the started hormones early the next fall and it was like night and day immediately. Everyone who knew them could immediately tell there was a difference. My best friend talked a lot about noticing that there was this mental clarity and peace they'd never felt before. There was one day they said something else I'll never forget "This is what this joy thing everyone keeps talking about it." She's now in a much better place than she ever had been as male, nobody who has kept in touch wishes or wants the male version back. We all love her because it's so much better for her. She feels closer to Christ, her relationship with God has never been better. She is celibate and doesn't date because she believes that same-sex relationships are wrong, though we all joke with her she should find a nice transman, but she's not into men. Over those months, I realized that I, and quite frankly, the entire conservative position on it has it wrong. I've met a few other Christian transgender people through her and they all have similar stories of struggling with their identity in Christ and their dysphoria, and other transgender people through her. All of them have said the only thing that made their dysphoria better is transitioning.

The way my best friend understand her dysphoria is that it's a perfect. Specifically, it's a physical birth defect with psychological symptoms that now that she has transitioned are completely gone. They've been doing a lot of research on this, and what they've found is that the brains of transgender individuals tend are shaped more like the brains of the sex they identify as, as opposed to the sex they were assigned at birth (in other words, MtF's have female-shaped brains and FtM's have male shaped brains). I do think that she is quite accurate in her description, it does seem to be some kind of birth defect.

Let's see if in a couple of years, your friend is still happy and this is not a temporary high. Have you been to the website sexchangeregret.com? The suicide rates stay the same post and pre-transition. Have you read the story of Nathan Verhels. I will pray for your friend but I believe that your friend has actually been sold a lie from hell that will involve butchering his body, taking hormones for the rest of his life which may give him all sorts of health issues and should he decide to do the bottom surgery putting an object in his body for the rest of his life to prevent his wound from closing. There are actual alternative methods that have been used to successfully treat people who have gender dysphoria (e.g. a depression drug) that helped a person to accept the gender/sex they were born in. However, the push has been rather to encourage 'transitioning' and suppress these alternative treatments. The research you are talking about was unable to be reproduced and the results called into question. The truth is being suppressed and your friend is actually going to be another victim of lies encouraged by those who think they are doing the best for him. You have also bought into the lies by calling him a they instead of a man.

 

[discipler7]

Like I said before, ROMANS.1:18-32 says that God knowingly changes a man into a homosexual because the man had knowingly "changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things"(eg idols) = he had rejected God and His Law as evil and oppressive.
... IOW, homosexuality is a curse or plague from God, similar to AIDS and cancer. The only cure is to repent of their sins/evil-deeds and unbelief.

 

[monoingles]

This is a huge topic, isn't it!

Outside of the person who struggles with their identity, there is a world that is affirming what they are struggling to understand and a lot of times this is happening when the person is young. This is becoming a huge problem in Britain, I read this article yesterday which spoke really well on this subject Children sacrificed to appease trans lobby - you have to annoyingly register to read the article but it is worth it!

What is important when dealing with people, especially our friends and family is that we have to be there with them through what they are going through. I might not agree with what they are thinking but I am called to love them and not to judge them, this can be tricky but there are far too many occasions where we need to speak through love and not through judgement.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Just stand on the unyielding rock that is Jesus Christ and base your faith on him. Read your Bible and pray for these people.

Liberal Christians don't base their faith on the Bible but base their beliefs on the changing winds of public opinion which is usually informed by an anti-Christian mainstream press and politicians. All these people(press, politicians etc) are usually paid or owned by rich donors many of whom live very anti-Christian lives. The press intentionally suppress anything science or information that is opposed to their agenda and present a glossy picture of filth and sin.

In terms of transgenderism, look up Sex Change Regret for an alternative viewpoint or the case of Nathan/Nancy Verhels. There is a lot of junk science going on. Even Jazz Jennings because he started taking hormones from an early age does not have enough material to do the bottom surgery. A delusion has spread among these people and they will accept anything because they don't rely on God's word but believe people who have an agenda.

One thing you have to realize is that anti-christian beliefs lead to physical or spiritual death in the end and sometimes it takes a while for those sins to be fully realized. The free love of the 60/70s led to the AIDs panic of the 80s, the objectification of women, elevation of Hugh Hefner, and lack of sexual restraint among men has now led to the sexual misconduct panic going on today. Imagine if you had followed what these people said on sexual ethics in the 70s as a man, only for these same people to turn against you today when you are accused of sexual misconduct. Look at Brett Ratner now whose idol was Hugh Hefner as an example. You can either pray for these people that God will lift the veil from their eyes, show them counter evidence or just avoid talking about these subjects all together to maintain peace.

I understand where you are coming from because I feel that It's actually liberal Christians who empower anti-Christian people to harass Christians who don't waver in their beliefs(see the case of the baker who didn't want to make a special cake for a gay marriage even though he was willing to sell them a generic cake, or many other Christians whose lives and businesses have been ruined by taking a stand for their beliefs.) and help the enemy to spread lies.

Pray for them and avoid arguments with them. And to be on the cautious side, avoid having posts or comments in print which can later be used against you calling you some type of 'phobe'.

Thanks. A potent post - but use paragraphs! I placed some in the above and hope you do not mind.

 

[pshun2404]

IMHO the Law in the Bible defines a man dressing as a women, in women's clothing, and vice versa, is a sin. The purpose of Christ at the cross was the remission of sin and there is only one sin that will not be forgiven (or is not covered). From there, different modern groups of Christians, depending on their worldly political positions, form their own judgments. Some of the people passing these judgments are heterosexual unmarried "Christians" who continue to fornicate but for some reason they do not see there own hypocrisy. IN CHRIST is the remission of sins. IN CHRIST we are forgiven for the sins God knows we do not escape from by the efforts of our flesh. Do you really think that which is begun in and by the Spirit is now made perfect by the works of the flesh? Hmmm?

 

[hedrick]

Then, I come back from Spring Break my senior year of college to my best friend in this weird state of frantic, yet distraught depressive and anxious state.

Now imagine you had a similar experience with a friend who realized that they were gay. It's these kinds of experiences that are changing Christians' minds.

But should they? Should we stick with tradition, and tell people that they are called to make sacrifices? Read Mark 2:23-28. He uses the example of David violating the Law because he's hungry to support helping people on the Sabbath. Because of the example of David, you can't argue that this passage is just about the Sabbath. It is a general policy that we should be willing to make exceptions where people's welfare is at stake. I think it's pretty clear that Paul had never been presented with cases that called for exceptions. In both Rom and 1 Cor he was speaking of pagan sexuality.

I was around when we explained to our church members the change in PCUSA policy on gays. Many of them were really happy. Not because suddenly we were politically correct, or because we imagined that many liberals would suddenly join our Church. No, they told us that they had friends or relatives who were gay.

 

[FireDragon76]

So many of the arguments I have heard sound like they are little more than sacramentalizing modern genetics, but the Bible seems silent on what little girls and boys are made of. It sounds more like a philosophical issue.

 

[badatusernames]

Let's see if in a couple of years, your friend is still happy and this is not a temporary high.

Well, let's see considering she started HRT three years ago now, this January will be his 2nd year living full time, and this coming Spring had will be one year post-SRS, I don't think I'd call it temporary. That's nothing compared another transwoman at her church who has been on hormones since the late 80s, living full time since 1990 and got SRS in 1992. There's also a transman she knows, who I haven't met, that transitioned in the early 80s.


Sex change regret is actually quite rare and almost always the result of continued or worsened mistreatment from other people, unsatisfied surgery results where they don't regret transitioning but just not happy with their results, or misdiagnosis.

Have you been to the website sexchangeregret.com?

1) "Britain's Youngest" - They were too young, the story says it. Furthermore, it seems clear the dysphoria really didn't form until after she had the sex change.
2) "I had it all" - Someone with true gender dysphoria wouldn't call themselves confused, and he also mentions that he over-identified with females in childhood, and it could likely be the result of something that he never really grew out of, which is what his first psychiatrist said. It's also worth noting this person does say that sex-ressaignment surgery does benefit some people, just not him.
3) "I often Imagine" - One of the very first sentences "I do not see my self as a woman and would never consider surgery." This is really nothing more than helping people accurately understand the full costs of SRS. He is exactly right, there needs to be as much psychaitric involvement as possible, which there is.
4) "3 Weeks Post Op" - This sentence gives it away "...That pretty much tells me that I’m NOT female at all. If I were female, why wasn’t I born with female genitalia." Someone with gender dysphoria knows they are female and sees the surgery as their body finally becoming aligned with who they are, not it changing who they are.
5) "Alan Went Back" - He blatantly says "He was misdiagnosed with gender identity disorder."
6) "I want to be a man again" - Again, the dysphoria really didn't seem to begin until after he had the surgery.

The suicide rates stay the same post and pre-transition.

A very common myth that comes from a single misquoted and misunderstood scientific study that has been debunked by every credible psychologist and medical doctor on the issue.

Have you read the story of Nathan Verhels.

The story meets two of the criteria above:
1) Continued or worsened mistreatment from others
2) Unsatisfied with the results of the surgery, it even says it was botched.

I will pray for your friend but I believe that your friend has actually been sold a lie from hell that will involve butchering his body, taking hormones for the rest of his life which may give him all sorts of health issues and should he decide to do the bottom surgery putting an object in his body for the rest of his life to prevent his wound from closing.

1) Actually, hormones just change the risks, it's a tradeoff. She said her doctor described it like this "The reason you're now at a higher risk for these things is because women are at higher risk for them."
2) Actually, she has had bottom surgery and since a vagina is an opening, that's kind of the point. Diolating doesn't keep it from closing, but helps it maintain it's internal structure. However, because she doesn't plan on ever having sex with it, especially with a man, she stopped diolating.

The only difference between her and my girlfriend with CAIS is one gets their hormones from their body producing them, the other from pills.

There are actual alternative methods that have been used to successfully treat people who have gender dysphoria (e.g. a depression drug) that helped a person to accept the gender/sex they were born in. However, the push has been rather to encourage 'transitioning' and suppress these alternative treatments. The research you are talking about was unable to be reproduced and the results called into question. The truth is being suppressed and your friend is actually going to be another victim of lies encouraged by those who think they are doing the best for him.

I don't respond to conspiracy theories.

You have also bought into the lies by calling him a they instead of a man.

I don't call her by male pronouns because she was never a man or really a boy. Like I said, there were always signs...
- Boys aren't jealous of schoolmates who were teased for being girly (she told me she used to be jealous of a classmate of ours who was always a bit prissy cause we'd see her a girl and is jealous of trans friends who were)
- Boys don't play dress up with their younger sister and then ask their male friends to play with them. (I remember this, just thought it was weird)
- High school boys don't ask their girlfriends to put makeup on them (I also knew about this one at the time)
- College guys don't wish they could pledge a sorority so they could be one of the girls
- College guys don't grow their hair out and sleep wearing it in pigtails (he forgot to take them out one morning, just remember thinking it was odd or his girlfriend did it as a joke)