Justification by Faith-Out Of Date

bling said:

OK, but it is really not proving: “The sinner is credited with the Righteousness of Christ in the Gospel's promise”.

It does bring up some wonderful information though:

“Works” (things you do to earn or deserve a wage) is contrasted with “Faith” (stuff you that would not earn you a wage or is deserving of anything). Trusting in God is not “work”, but it is something you can do and it would be credited as righteousness. If you think about it, trusting in God’s help would be the opposite of self-reliance (doing it by your own power), so that would be “worthy” of nothing and really a humbling activity since the lowliest mature adult on earth can do the same thing.

This passage does not suggest Abraham was imputed with Christ’s righteousness, but Abraham’s internal faith was the result of his righteousness, the same as our faith in Christ can result in a righteousness in us, but it does not say it is Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us. .

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I don't think so. I would suggest you look up texts on self-righteousness

ladodgers6 said:

What I mean by imputed righteousness? I will keep it simple, and answer your questions that you may have. The sinner is credited with the Righteousness of Christ in the Gospel's promise, and is receive by Faith Alone apart from works!

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I believe Paul's words in Ephesians 2:8-9 was in regards to Initial Salvation and or how we are ultimately saved. For we don't do a work alone (without God's grace) to get right with GOD. We can merely repent of our sins and His grace covers us. However, Paul was not denying that believers are to bring forth works. For James says we are justified by works (James 2:24). Of course, these works are not your own good works, but they are the works of Christ done in you. So yes. We are saved by Christ's works alone. Both in Justification and in Sanctification. Why? Because there is salvation in no other but Jesus Christ; And if you abide in Christ, then good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in your life. In other words, it is not that good works in and of themselves are saving you alone. For our past record or ledger is filled with red (i.e. our sins). We need Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf so as to atone for our sin and reconnect us back to GOD. But if we do evil or sin, that simply just breaks the connection we have with GOD again (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:36-37, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8). Surely everyone knows that good guys do good and bad guys do evil. It's how you can tell the good guys from the bad guys when you watch the news, or a movie, or when you are around others. It is by a person's deeds that justifies the type of person that they are (or what is in their heart). But in the case of a believer, the good works we do are not our own works alone, but they are the works of Christ done thru us. They are proof that Christ lives in us; And we know by the Scriptures, that if a person does not have the Son they also do not have life (1 John 5:12).


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bling said:

OK, but it is really not proving: “The sinner is credited with the Righteousness of Christ in the Gospel's promise”.

It does bring up some wonderful information though:

“Works” (things you do to earn or deserve a wage) is contrasted with “Faith” (stuff you that would not earn you a wage or is deserving of anything). Trusting in God is not “work”, but it is something you can do and it would be credited as righteousness. If you think about it, trusting in God’s help would be the opposite of self-reliance (doing it by your own power), so that would be “worthy” of nothing and really a humbling activity since the lowliest mature adult on earth can do the same thing.

This passage does not suggest Abraham was imputed with Christ’s righteousness, but Abraham’s internal faith was the result of his righteousness, the same as our faith in Christ can result in a righteousness in us, but it does not say it is Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us. .

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2 Corinthians 5:21 says it's God's righteousness while 1 Corinthians 1:30 says Christ became righteousness for us.

ladodgers6 said:

Justification by Faith — Out of Date?
Benjamin B. Warfield

Sometimes we are told that Justification by Faith is "out of date." That would be a pity, if it were true. What it would mean would be that the way of salvation was closed and "no thoroughfare" nailed up over the barriers. There is no justification for sinful men except by faith. The works of a sinful man will, of course, be as sinful as he is, and nothing but condemnation can be built on them. Where can he get works upon which he can found his hope of justification, except from Another? His hope of Justification, remember — that is, of being pronounced righteous by God. Can God pronounce him righteous except on the ground of works that are righteous? Where can a sinful man get works that are righteous? Surely, not from himself; for, is he not a sinner, and all his works as sinful as he is? He must go out of himself, then, to find works which he can offer to God as righteous. And where will he find such works except in Christ? Or how will he make them his own except by faith in Christ?

Justification by Faith, we see, is not to be set in contradiction to justification by Works. It is set in contradiction only to justification by our Own Works. It is justification by Christ's Works. The whole question, accordingly, is whether we can hope to be received into God's favor on the ground of what we do ourselves, or only on the ground of what Christ does for us. If we expect to be received on the ground of what we do ourselves — that is what is called Justification by Works. If on the ground of what Christ has done for us — that is what is meant by Justification by Faith. Justification by Faith means, that is to say, that we look to Christ and to him alone for salvation, and come to God pleading Christ's death and righteousness as the ground of our hope to be received into his favor. If Justification by Faith is out of date, that means, then, that salvation by Christ is out of date. There is nothing, in that case, left to us but that each man must just do the best he can to save himself.

Justification by Faith does not mean, then, salvation by believing things instead of doing right. It means pleading the merits of Christ before the throne of grace instead of our own merits. It may be doing right to believe things, and doing right is certainly right. The trouble with pleading our own merits before God is not that merits of our own would not be acceptable to God. The trouble is that we haven't any merits of our own to plead before God. Adam, before his fall, had merits of his own, and because he had merits of his own he was, in his own person, acceptable to God. He didn't need Another to stand between him and God, whose merits he could plead. And, therefore, there was no talk of his being Justified by Faith. But we are not like Adam before the fall; we are sinners and have no merits of our own. If we are to be justified at all, it must be on the ground of the merits of Another, whose merits can be made ours by faith. And that is the reason why God sent His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life. If we do not believe in him, obviously we must perish. But if we believe in him, we shall not perish but have everlasting life. That is Justification by Faith. Justification by Faith is nothing other than obtaining everlasting life by believing in Christ. If Justification by Faith is out of date, then is salvation through Christ out of date. And as there is none other name under heaven, given among men, wherein we must be saved, if salvation through Christ is out of date then is salvation itself out of date. Surely, in a world of sinful men, needing salvation, this would be a great pity.
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Also, faith is more than just belief-alone-ism. Faith is something that leads to action. A reading of Hebrews 11 shows you what real faith is like.

Furthermore, the one of the best verses that talks about the Substitutionary Atonement for the believer is 1 John 1:7. It says,


In other words, in order for the blood to cleanse you of all sin, you have to walk in the light of Christ.


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I realize that many Christians these days are more into intellectualizing than necessary but that shouldn't extend to basic doctrine of the Christian faith imo

In other words, the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a gospel of justification in doing evil or sin. The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches justification leads to holiness as a part of the package deal.


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~Cassia~: I don’t think your exegesis — with which I mostly agree — supports imputation of Christ's righteousness or Adam's sin.

I don't want to get into a discussion of depravity because of mentioning imputation thru the first Adam resulting in amputation from God but it's not just in Romans. We are born with a sin-nature acquired from the fall. All need a savior because of it. And there's no other way to remove the sin-nature w/o aquiring a new nature, God's nature imputed to us in a renewed heart.

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You’re saying that our nature was corrupted by Adam. That’s not imputation of Adam’s sin. Imputation would mean that we’re considered guilty of Adam’s sin when we’re not.

You then say — correctly I think — that the only way to fix the problem is to renew our heart. That’s what Paul says in Rom 6: we die and rise to new life with Christ. But imputation says that we are credited with Christ’s righteousness without requiring any change in ourselves (although change does happen once we are justified). Your statement is actually closer to the standard Catholic position than to imputation.

Your quotation of 1 Cor 15:22 is to the point, since it describes our transformation.

Of course we are not guilty of Adam's actual sin. Unless we also ate an apple we were told not to.

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But imputation of his sin would say that we are accounted guilty of it. I agree with you that Paul doesn’t say this.

hedrick said:

~Cassia~: I don’t think your exegesis — with which I mostly agree — supports imputation of Christ's righteousness or Adam's sin.


You’re saying that our nature was corrupted by Adam. That’s not imputation of Adam’s sin. Imputation would mean that we’re considered guilty of Adam’s sin when we’re not.

You then say — correctly I think — that the only way to fix the problem is to renew our heart. That’s what Paul says in Rom 6: we die and rise to new life with Christ. But imputation says that we are credited with Christ’s righteousness without requiring any change in ourselves (although change does happen once we are justified). Your statement is actually closer to the standard Catholic position than to imputation.

Your quotation of 1 Cor 15:22 is to the point, since it describes our transformation.


But imputation of his sin would say that we are accounted guilty of it. I agree with you that Paul doesn’t say this.

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I didn't say Paul doesn't say that in fact there were several of quotes from him so please don't imply what I didn't imply.

Dictionaries - Easton's Bible Dictionary - Imputation
Imputation
is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our "law-place," undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same ( Romans 5:12-19 ; Compare Philemon 1:18 Philemon 1:19 ).

We therefore are reckoned dead in Adam's sin and reckoned dead to sin because of what?

Ps wouldn`t know what the catholics teach, you would have to ask them.

ladodgers6 said:

Well I am glad that you see that marvelous contrast, because seeing that is the beginning. Faith is not what saves us. Its Christ Alone is what saves us. Faith receives what saves; namely Jesus Christ and all his heavenly blessings. Paul here is preaching the distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone apart from works. One thing people seem to miss, is that God still demands Perfect Righteousness to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, there is no getting around this. So Paul is saying that no flesh will be Justified through the Law. And because we are sinners, we are incapable of being Righteous.

The Gospel is the good news that the second Adam fulfilled these works of the Law perfectly for us, where the first Adam failed to do. So In Romans 3 we read,

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

There is only one way we can be justified before a Holy God. And that is to be righteous! No way around this, either. No human being will be justified in His sight through the works of the Law. But apart from the Law in Christ we receive His perfect righteousness through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. In other words we look outside ourselves to Christ who is our righteousness, and receive it through Faith (empty hands), and we are clothed in Christ by being unite to Christ by the Holy Spirit in Faith Alone.

30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Cor. 1:30)

21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.(2 Cor. 5:21)

9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith (Phil 3:9)

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Hmmm.... no. While it is true that we are initially and ultimately saved by grace (without works), not all law mentioned by Paul is in reference to all law in general. Paul made a distinction between the old law and the new law. For Paul says,

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

Translation: There is the:

(a) The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus
(Which is a New Covenant Law) (See Romans 8:1 in the KJV).

(b) The Law of Sin and Death
(Which is the Law of Moses) (For the Law of Moses was called the Law of Sin and Death because you could die physically as part of the penalty in breaking it's Laws). This interpretation is further supported by the fact that verse 3 says, "For what the law could not do,..." (i.e. the Law of Moses could not do). For it would be contradictory to say that the Laws in the New Covenant do not apply in regards to our salvation. For 1 John 3:23 tells us it is a command (i.e. a law) to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Surely you cannot say you are not under this Law or Command and still claim salvation, right?

In other words, when Paul says we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14), he was referring to the Law of Moses and not all Law in general. This is evident by the fact that Paul talks about circumcision in Romans 3:1 and Romans 2:25-29. For circumcision is a part of the Old Law and not the New Law. So it is important to know which Law Paul is talking about. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James here is talking about the works of Christ done in a believer after they have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus and His free gift of grace (without any man directed works done by us).

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ladodgers6 said:

I beg to differ. Because Christ says that He came not to abolish the Law (Moses), but fulfill it! In Romans 3 Paul says,

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Why do we uphold the Law? If the righteousness of God has been revealed APART FROM THE LAW. To keep our boasting in Check! To reveal sin; through the Law comes knowledge of sin! Because the Law drives sinners to God who justifies the ungodly! The Law is God's Holy Moral Character, and this is His will that we obey it Perfectly!

The Law and Sin

7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

There is no way around the fact that everyone is accountable to God and His Law. Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Because this type of Love fulfills God's Law perfectly, but we will struggle as Paul also struggles with it in Romans 7.

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First, if the Old Testament Law was still in effect, then that means:

(a). The Law on Animal Sacrifices to a Priest Still Exists.
(However, the Temple veil has been torn and Jesus is now our Passover Lamb and Heavenly High Priest (Matthew 27:51) (1 Corinthians 5:7) (Hebrews 4:14)).

(b). The Law That Says, You Can Render an Eye for an Eye Still Exists.
(But Jesus said, Whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.).

(c). The Saturday Sabbath Law is Still In Force.
(But Paul says, "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Romans 14:5); And Paul says, "Let no man therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days." (Colossians 2:16)).

(d). The Law on Circumcision is Still in Effect.
(But Paul says, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 6:2).).

(e). The Law on Eating Unclean Animals is Still in Effect.
(But God told Peter, "Rise, Peter; kill, and eat." This was in context of how Peter can now eat unclean animals - See Acts 10:9-16).

(f). The Law of Tithing is Still in Effect.
(But Paul says, "Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7)).

(g). Laws on Capital Punishment are Still in Effect.
(For example: Committing adultery under the Old Law required the death penalty (Leviticus 20:10); But Jesus said to those who wanted to stone a woman for committing adultery the following, "...He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7) (See John 8:1-10 to get the full context). Here is a full list of crimes (i.e. the Breaking of God's Laws) in the Old Testament that involve the death penalty (if you were to commit them) (Note: The following list is a quote from Wikipedia; See source link below for the entire article):

• Murder[13]
• Adultery[13]
• inappropriate behavior with animals[14]
• Rape[15]
• Sodomy [16]
• One man picked up sticks on the Sabbath, he was taken into custody because a punishment was not known. The LORD told Moses that the man in custody must be killed. This particular crime and punishment may appear to be an isolated case law.(Numbers 15:32–36) (The Saturday Sabbath Command is a ceremonial law that has not been repeated within the New Covenant).
• The man and woman when a man meets a betrothed woman in town and sleeps with her. But if it is a case of rape where out in the country she called for help and no one heard, the death penalty only applies to the man[17]
• A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding[18]
• Worshiping other gods[19][20]
• Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18)
• Taking the LORD's name in vain or cursing his name[21]
• Cursing a parent[22][23][24]
• Kidnapping[25]
• Disobeying a parent[26]
• Lying in certain cases (See this link here).

Yet, nowhere do we see any of these prescribed punishments for these sins repeated in the New Testament. In fact, on the contrary, Jesus told us to love our enemies and to do good to those who despitefully use us. We are to bless those who curse us even.

Second, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Three, when Jesus said, I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it:
Well, the word "Law" is sometimes used in reference to not just the Law of Moses but to entirety of the whole Old Testament (Including the prophecies about the End Times). For the word "Law" sometimes is in reference to the abbreviated form of the saying "Law and the prophets" (Matthew 5:17) (Matthew 7:12) (Matthew 22:40) (John 1:45) (Acts 13:15) (Acts 24:14) (Acts 28:13) (Romans 3:21). In other words, the "Law and the prophets" was merely a reference to the whole entire package of the Old Testament. So when Jesus said he came not to destroy the "Law" he was referring to that aspect of the "prophecies" contained in the "Law and the prophets." For clearly there is a change in "Law" with the New Testament. We do not offer animals sacrifices anymore. We can eat unclean animals. We are not to render an eye for an eye anymore but we are to turn the other cheek. For Christ came to fulfill the Old Law and not destroy it. To put it to you another way: Think of the Old Testament as an apple seed and the New Testament as an apple tree. The OT saint was justified by faith in the Lord and by looking ahead to the Promises that would be fulfilled in the Messiah (i.e. Jesus Christ).

For Jesus said, I came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. Meaning if I took a hammer and smashed the apple seed it could not be fulfilled into it's true intended purpose, --- so the Old was necessary part in order for the New to take place. For if I planted that apple seed in the ground, that means the apple seed would be fulfilled in becoming an apple tree (As it was meant to be). Jesus obeyed the Law perfectly and fulfilled it on our behalf so He can impute His righteousness to us when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior. Then Christ is able to work His righteousness (According to His Word) thru us from that point (And not our own righteousness).

Four, as for Romans 3:31: Paul is talking about the righteousness portion of the Old Law (Which is still in effect today for New Testament believers). For Paul says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."(Romans 8:4). What is the righteousness of the Law?
Well, Paul says,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10).

As for Romans 7: Well, the bulk of Romans 7 is Paul talking from his perspective as a Pharisee who struggled to keep the Law on his own efforts without Jesus Christ. For it is Paul's conclusion at the end of Romans 7 that it is by Jesus Christ whereby He can have victory in overcoming sin. Paul then tells us that there is no Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1). In fact, we know Paul is talking from his perspective as a Pharisee in the bulk of Romans 7 and then as a Christian at the end of Romans 7 (continuing on into Romans 8). For in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. Yet, in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is free from sin.


Wikipedia Source Link Used:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Torah
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There were sins in the OT that are never atoned for by sacrifices or offerings when the Aaronic priesthood was cancelled by Samuel at the time when the Nazarite priesthood was first brought in 1 samuel 3:11-14 The people replaced that new priesthood with a kingship in rejecting what God had inaugerated and God brought that back to Himself when Christ inaugerated the priesthood under the order of Melchezidec that a Nazarite under the returned Aaronic priesthood brought in.

ladodgers6 said:

So are you in agreement with N.T. Wright? Because Wright, Sanders, Dunn, agree and believe that our Justification lies in the life lived by the believer. That our 'FINAL JUSTIFICATION' is determined by the obedient works of the believer.

You say that you do not believe is the Imputation of Adam's Sin. Question: why did people die between Adam & Moses? Paul uses this to drive home a point in Romans 5. I would like to hear your take on this.

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I agree with Wright in some respects and disagree with others.

Wright maintains that justification by faith means that we are recognized to be Christians by our faith. I.e. our faith is the “badge” by which we are recognized as God’s people. This is the answer to the Judaizers that Paul was arguing against, who saw circumcision as the way we recognize who are God’s people.

I agree that Paul does say this. However as I pointed out in a previous posting, there are two aspects to justification. One is recognizing who are God’s people, but the other is making us one of God’s people, i.e. how God puts us right with himself. In other parts of Romans Paul says that we are put right with God through our faith, and uses justification by faith to mean that. That’s the more traditional Protestant view. Through faith we are united to Christ, and through that union receive Christ’s death to sin and resurrection to new life.

As I noted, I doubt that Paul distinguished between these two meanings. I think for him faith defines us as God’s people, and this means both that it makes us one of God’s, and is a way to recognize who is God’s. This doesn’t seem quite the same thing as Wright says.

Wright says God can use faith as indicating that we are his people because those with faith will, with God’s help, produce lives that God can recognize in the final judgement. So faith is a sign of the quality of life that we will produce. I agree that God will recognize the quality of our lives and our deeds in the final judgement. Since all of Jesus’ teachings about judgement portray judgement of lives / deeds, it’s pretty hard to argue against that.

I don’t think Wright makes as strong a case for this as he might, in part because what I’ve seen about justification in Wright deals primarily with Paul, and I think we need to include Jesus’ teaching in this area. However Wright’s position is a reasonable way to reconcile the importance of faith with Jesus’ teachings about judgement. Jesus is clear that God judges lives, but he is also clear that good fruit comes from good trees.

It may be that in the end it’s a mistake to distinguish these two so strongly. I think if we’re going to reconcile Paul and Jesus, we have to see faith in Paul as being equivalent to Jesus’ concept of being his follower. Jesus certainly doesn’t expect our lives to be perfect. We always need God’s grace and forgiveness. But he’s also clear (as Paul is other places) that claiming to follow Jesus and not showing some sign of it is deception. So judging who we have faith in and looking for fruit in our lives may not be different things.

Note by the way that Jesus’ judgement is never based on sinlessness. Indeed he makes surprisingly few references to sin, except to its forgiveness. And none of those references are in his teachings about judgement. Rather than looking at whether we’ve sinned, his portraits of judgement seem to look at whether our lives have helped anyone. And I would argue that he looks at that as a sign of being his follower (i.e. faith) and not in any sense earning salvation through good deeds. That’s why Jesus’ version of judgement of lives doesn’t support the doctrine and practice of 16th Cent Catholics to which Luther responded. (I make no judgement here of current Catholic practice.)

There are a number of scholars who summarize the NT view, both Jesus and Paul, as justified by faith, judged by works. This is paradoxical, and not entirely kosher by Protestant standards, but I think it’s an accurate reflection of the NT.

Are you asking why not everyone had eternal life, or are you asking about physical death? People died physically because humans are by nature mortal. If you believe that Gen 3 is literal history, that's a result of the fall. It's not a result of imputation of Adam's sin, though, it's because we inherit a nature from him that was corrupted as a consequence of the fall. I think this is Calvin's view.

That's just mincing words to support Traditition but whatever .. sianara .. fair thee well

hedrick said:

But Paul never actually says that Christ’s righteousness is imputed as ours. What he actually says is that our faith is imputed as righteousness.

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Agree. Theologian NT Wright argues, and convincingly in my opinion, that the idea that we are imputed with Jesus's own righteousness is not a Biblical concept; we are indeed imputed with "righteousness", but it is not the righteousness of Jesus but rather the "general" righteousness that is imputed to someone who is acquitted in a law-court setting.

You do realize now you are talking about the doctrine of total depravity and not imputation or justification etc. don't you?



Scripture teaches from beginning to end that all humanity is totally depraved. Paul says unredeemed people are “dead in … trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1). Apart from salvation, all people walk in worldliness and disobedience (v. 2). We who know and love the Lord once “lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest” (v. 3). We were “separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (v. 12).
In those passages Paul describes the state of unbelievers as estrangement from God. It is that they hate God, not that they are intimidated by Him. In fact, Paul says, “There is no fear of God” in the unregenerate person (Rom. 3:18). Before our salvation, we were actually God’s enemies (Rom. 5:8, 10). We were “alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds” (Col. 1:21). Sinful passions, inflamed by our hatred of God’s law, motivated all our living (Rom. 7:5). We were tainted by sin in every part of our being. We were corrupt, evil, thoroughly sinful.
Theologians refer to this doctrine as total depravity. It does not mean that unbelieving sinners are always as bad as they could be (cf. Luke 6:33; Rom. 2:14). It does not mean that the expression of sinful human nature is always lived out to the fullest. It does not mean that unbelievers are incapable of acts of kindness, benevolence, goodwill, or human altruism. It certainly does not mean that non-Christians cannot appreciate goodness, beauty, honesty, decency, or excellence. It does mean that none of this has any merit with God.
Depravity also means that evil has contaminated every aspect of our humanity—our heart, mind, personality, emotions, conscience, motives, and will (cf. Jer. 17:9; John 8:44). Unredeemed sinners are therefore incapable of doing anything to please God (Isa. 64:6). They are incapable of truly loving the God who reveals Himself in Scripture. They are incapable of obedience from the heart, with righteous motives. They are incapable of understanding spiritual truth. They are incapable of genuine faith. And that means they are incapable of pleasing God or truly seeking Him (Heb. 11:1).
Total depravity means sinners have no ability to do spiritual good or to work for their own salvation from sin. They are so completely disinclined to love righteousness, so thoroughly dead in sin, that they are not able to save themselves or even to fit themselves for God’s salvation. Unbelieving humanity has no capacity to desire, understand, believe, or apply spiritual truth: “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Cor. 2:14). In spite of all this, people are proud of themselves! Lack of self-esteem is not the issue.
Because of Adam’s sin, this state of spiritual death called total depravity has passed to all mankind. Another term for this is original sin. Scripture explains it this way: “Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned (Rom. 5:12). When, as head of the human race, Adam sinned, the whole race was corrupted. “Through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners” (Rom 5:19). How such a thing could happen has been the subject of much theological discussion for centuries. For our purposes, however, it is sufficient to affirm that Scripture clearly teaches that Adam’s sin brought guilt upon the entire race. We were “in Adam” when he sinned, and therefore the guilt of sin and the sentence of death passed upon all of us: “In Adam all die” (1 Cor. 15:22).
We might be tempted to think, If I’m sinful by birth and never had a morally neutral nature, how can I be held responsible for being a sinner? But our corrupt nature is precisely why our guilt is such a serious matter. Sin flows from the very soul of our being. It is because of our sinful nature that we commit sinful acts: “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man” (Mark 7:21–23). We are “by nature children of wrath” (Eph. 2:3). Original sin—including all the corrupt tendencies and sinful passions of the soul—is as deserving of punishment as all our voluntary acts of sin. What is sin, after all, but anomia—“lawlessness” (1 John 3:4)? Or as the Westminster Shorter Catechism says, “Sin is any want of conformity to, or transgression of, the law of God” (q. 14). Far from being an excuse, original sin itself is at the heart of why we are guilty. And original sin itself is sufficient grounds for our condemnation before God.
Moreover, original sin with its resulting depravity is the reason we commit voluntary acts of sin. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote,
Why is it that man ever chooses to sin? The answer is that man has fallen away from God, and as a result, his whole nature has become perverted and sinful. Man’s whole bias is away from God. By nature he hates God and feels that God is opposed to him. His god is himself, his own abilities and powers, his own desires. He objects to the whole idea of God and the demands which God makes upon him.… Furthermore, man likes and covets the things which God prohibits, and dislikes the things and the kind of life to which God calls him. These are no mere dogmatic statements. They are facts.… They alone explain the moral muddle and the ugliness that characterise life to such an extent today.
Salvation from original sin is only through the cross of Christ: “As through the one man’s disobedience [Adam’s sin] the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One [Jesus Christ] the many will be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). We are born in sin (Ps. 51:5), and if we are to become children of God and enter God’s kingdom, we must be born again by God’s Spirit (John 3:3–8).
In other words, contrary to what most people think—contrary to the presuppositions of self-esteem doctrine—men and women are not naturally good. Just the opposite is true. We are by nature enemies of God, sinners, lovers of ourselves, and in bondage to our own sin. We are blind, deaf, and dead to spiritual matters, unable even to believe apart from God’s gracious intervention. Yet we are relentlessly proud! In fact, nothing is more illustrative of human wickedness than the desire for self-esteem. And the first step to a proper self-image is a recognition that these things are true.
That is why Jesus commended the tax-gatherer—rather than rebuking him for his low self-esteem—when the man pounded his chest and pleaded, “God, be merciful to me, the sinner!” (Luke 18:13). The man had finally come to the point where he saw himself for what he was, and he was so overcome that his emotion released in acts of self-condemnation. The truth is, his self-image had never been more sound than at that moment. Rid of pride and pretense, he now saw there was nothing he could ever do to earn God’s favor. Instead, he pleaded with God for mercy. And therefore he “went down to his house justified”—exalted by God because he had humbled himself (v. 14). For the first time ever he was in a position to realize true joy, peace with God, and a new sense of self-worth that is granted by God’s grace to those He adopts as His children (Rom. 8:15).
All Have Sinned and Fall Short
Deep in our hearts, we all know something is desperately wrong with us. Our conscience constantly confronts us with our own sinfulness. Try as we might to blame others or seek psychological explanations for how we feel, we cannot escape reality. We cannot ultimately deny our own consciences. We all feel our guilt, and we all know the horrible truth about who we are on the inside.
We feel guilty because we are guilty. Only the cross of Christ can answer sin in a way that frees us from our own shame. Psychology might mask some of the pain of our guilt. Self-esteem might sweep it under the rug for a time. Other things—such as seeking comfort in relationships, or blaming our problems on someone else—might make us feel better, but the relief is only superficial. And it is dangerous. In fact, it often intensifies the guilt, because it adds dishonesty and pride to the sin that originally wounded the conscience.
True guilt has only one cause, and that is sin. Until sin is dealt with, the conscience will fight to accuse. And sin—not low self-esteem—is the very thing the gospel is given to conquer. That is why the apostle Paul began his presentation of the gospel to the Romans with a lengthy discourse about sin. Total depravity is the first gospel truth he introduced, and he spent nearly three full chapters on the subject. Romans 1:18–32 demonstrates the guilt of the pagans. Romans 2:1–16 proves the guilt of the moralist, who violates the very standard by which he judges others. And Romans 2:17–3:8 establishes the guilt of the Jews, who had access to all the benefits of divine grace but as a whole rejected God’s righteousness nonetheless.
Since Romans 1 Paul has argued eloquently, citing evidence from nature, history, sound reason, and conscience to prove the utter sinfulness of all humanity. And in verses 9–20 of chapter 3, he sums it all up. Paul reasons like an attorney giving his final summation. He reviews his arguments like a prosecutor who has made an ironclad case against all humanity. It is a powerful and compelling presentation, replete with a charge, convincing proof, and the inescapable verdict.
The Charge
“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin” (Rom. 3:9). Paul’s indictment thus begins with two questions: What then? or, “Is there any need of further testimony?” And, Are we better than they? or, “Can anyone honestly claim to live above the level of human nature I have been describing?”
“Not at all,” he answers. Everyone from the most degenerate, perverted sinner (Rom. 1:28–32) to the most rigidly legalistic Jew falls into the same category of total depravity. In other words, the entire human race, without exception, is arraigned in the divine courtroom and charged with being “under sin”—wholly subjugated to the power of sin. All unredeemed people, Paul is saying, are subservient to sin, in thrall to it, taken captive to sin’s authority.
Paul’s Jewish readers would have found this truth every bit as shocking and unbelievable as it must be to those weaned on modern self-esteem doctrine. They believed they were acceptable to God by birth and that only Gentiles were sinners by nature. Jews were, after all, God’s chosen people. The idea that all Jews were sinners was contrary to the beliefs of the Pharisees. They taught that only derelicts, beggars, and Gentiles were born in sin (cf. John 9:34). But Scripture clearly pronounces otherwise. Even David said, “I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (Ps. 51:5). “The whole world lies in the power of the evil one” (1 John 5:19). Modern humanity, weaned on self-esteem psychology, also finds it shocking to learn that all of us are by nature sinful and unworthy creatures.
The Proof
Paul, continuing his courtroom summation, goes on to prove from the Old Testament Scriptures the universality of human depravity:
As it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one. Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they keep deceiving, the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood, destruction and misery are in their paths, and the path of peace have they not known” (3:10–17).
Notice how Paul underscores the universality of sin. In those few verses, he says “none” or “not even one” six times. No person escapes the accusation. “The Scripture has shut up all men under sin” (Gal. 3:22).
Paul’s argument is constructed in three parts. First he shows how sin corrupts the character: “There is none righteous … there is none who does good, there is not even one” (Rom. 3:10–12). Here Paul makes six charges. He says that because of their innate depravity, people are universally evil (“none righteous”); spiritually ignorant (“none who understands”), rebellious (“none who seeks for God”), wayward (“all have turned aside”), spiritually useless (“together they have become useless”), and morally corrupt (“there is none who does good”).
The verse Paul is quoting is Psalm 14:1: “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’ They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; there is no one who does good.” The words at the end of Romans 3:12, “not even one,” are an editorial comment from Paul, added to make the truth inescapable for someone who might otherwise think of himself as an exception to the rule—as is the common attitude of self-justifying sinners.
Notice, Paul does not suggest that some sinners might be prone to think worse of themselves than they ought to. The very opposite is true: “I say to every man among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think” (Rom. 12:3). Undue pride is the typical and expected response of sinners. Self-esteem teaching is the expression of that very pride. Making a savage feel good about himself only increases his deadliness.
Again, the utter depravity Paul is describing certainly does not mean that all people play out the expression of their sin to the ultimate degree. There are certainly some people who are good in a relative sense. They may have characteristics of compassion, generosity, kindness, integrity, decency, thoughtfulness, and so on. But even those characteristics are imperfect and sullied with human sin and weakness. No one—“not even one”—comes close to true righteousness. God’s standard, after all, is absolute perfection: “You are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt. 5:48). In other words, no one who falls short of the touchstone of perfection is acceptable to God! What does that do to self-esteem theology? How does one feel good about oneself when God Himself declares us worthy of wrath?