Justification by Faith-Out Of Date

[hedrick]

Given the explanation I just gave, I have problems with the wording of the question. I believe strongly in justification by faith, and in imputed righteousness, but not in what the poll asks, imputation of Christs righteousness.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Here's a simple way of looking at imputation

The first great act of imputation is that of Adam's sin being imputed to the whole human race. Romans 5:12 When the sins of the race were imputed to God's Son we were given a clean slate. Isaiah 53:5-6 The OT transfer of accounts= the scapegoat who bore away all the sins of the people. The righteousness of God is imputed to us NT
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

He traded Barrabas' cross and ours yet we both went free.

CREDIT
The righteousness of Christ imputed to sinners
Gives us the right to come into the presence of God

Romans 1:16-17
The Just Live by Faith

So...
step #1= Adam's sin reckoned to the race
step #2= God reckoned over the sin of Adam's race to Christ
step #3= God reckoned righteousness of God to sinners
(this was an act of free grace)

Philippians 3:8-9

VIEWING THE DIVINE TRANSACTION

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 9:14
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God;and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

(All that is in Jesus is set down to our account)

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

(Thru faith, His Righteousness is given to us. God accepted the payment)

 

[~Anastasia~]

So just curious, if you consider Adam's sin to be "imputed to" the whole human race, would you say babies are born guilty?

Here's a simple way of looking at imputation

The first great act of imputation is that of Adam's sin being imputed to the whole human race. Romans 5:12 When the sins of the race were imputed to God's Son we were given a clean slate. Isaiah 53:5-6 The OT transfer of accounts= the scapegoat who bore away all the sins of the people. The righteousness of God is imputed to us NT
2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

He traded Barrabas' cross and ours yet we both went free.

CREDIT
The righteousness of Christ imputed to sinners
Gives us the right to come into the presence of God

Romans 1:16-17
The Just Live by Faith

So...
step #1= Adam's sin reckoned to the race
step #2= God reckoned over the sin of Adam's race to Christ
step #3= God reckoned righteousness of God to sinners
(this was an act of free grace)

Philippians 3:8-9

VIEWING THE DIVINE TRANSACTION

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews 9:14
how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God;and righteousness and sanctification and redemption

(All that is in Jesus is set down to our account)

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

(Thru faith, His Righteousness is given to us. God accepted the payment)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So just curious, if you consider Adam's sin to be "imputed to" the whole human race, would you say babies are born guilty?

Wouldn't you? I guess if they weren't they could go thru life never sinning by keeping to the law as Paul did.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Wouldn't you? I guess if they weren't they could go thru life never sinning by keeping to the law as Paul did.

Not looking to argue. I was just curious. And I don't see how not being born guilty relates to keeping the law after that.

No, I don't consider babies born guilty. I don't believe God holds anyone guilty for the sin of another.

But it is a sin-infected world, and we are born with a nature bent towards sin, so sooner or later (generally as soon as we are old enough to make a choice) we all sin, so if the baby lives that long, it will become guilty of its own sins, as all of us have done.

But I was just curious of your pov. You don't have to answer, of course.

Peace to you.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Not looking to argue. I was just curious. And I don't see how not being born guilty relates to keeping the law after that.

No, I don't consider babies born guilty. I don't believe God holds anyone guilty for the sin of another.

But it is a sin-infected world, and we are born with a nature bent towards sin, so sooner or later (generally as soon as we are old enough to make a choice) we all sin, so if the baby lives that long, it will become guilty of its own sins, as all of us have done.

But I was just curious of your pov. You don't have to answer, of course.

Peace to you.

It's of topic so I won't

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Christ took my sin, and He gave me His righteousness, i.e., "double imputation". Without both parts, there is no Christianity.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's of topic so I won't

Apologies. I didn't think it was. Peace to you.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Not looking to argue

You are arguing. (and it's OK)

Argue: To present reasons for or against a thing.
He argued in favor of capital punishment.

 

[~Anastasia~]

You are arguing. (and it's OK)

Argue: To present reasons for or against a thing.
He argued in favor of capital punishment.

As you wish, lol.

My point was that I was only curious about a way of looking at things. I offered my point of view in this case hoping to lay all the cards on the table, as it were, as a means of demonstrating I was willing to do so. Doesn't matter.

But my point in saying that was that I have no intention of offering points against anyone's position in any attempt to change their beliefs.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

As you wish, lol.

My point was that I was only curious about a way of looking at things. I offered my point of view in this case hoping to lay all the cards on the table, as it were, as a means of demonstrating I was willing to do so. Doesn't matter.

But my point in saying that was that I have no intention of offering points against anyone's position in any attempt to change their beliefs.

Understood.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Sometimes we are told that Justification by Faith is "out of date." That would be a pity, if it were true. What it would mean would be that the way of salvation was closed and "no thoroughfare" nailed up over the barriers. There is no justification for sinful men except by faith. The works of a sinful man will, of course, be as sinful as he is, and nothing but condemnation can be built on them. Where can he get works upon which he can found his hope of justification, except from Another? His hope of Justification, remember — that is, of being pronounced righteous by God. Can God pronounce him righteous except on the ground of works that are righteous? Where can a sinful man get works that are righteous? Surely, not from himself; for, is he not a sinner, and all his works as sinful as he is? He must go out of himself, then, to find works which he can offer to God as righteous. And where will he find such works except in Christ? Or how will he make them his own except by faith in Christ?

Justification by Faith, we see, is not to be set in contradiction to justification by Works. It is set in contradiction only to justification by our Own Works. It is justification by Christ's Works. The whole question, accordingly, is whether we can hope to be received into God's favor on the ground of what we do ourselves, or only on the ground of what Christ does for us. If we expect to be received on the ground of what we do ourselves — that is what is called Justification by Works. If on the ground of what Christ has done for us — that is what is meant by Justification by Faith. Justification by Faith means, that is to say, that we look to Christ and to him alone for salvation, and come to God pleading Christ's death and righteousness as the ground of our hope to be received into his favor. If Justification by Faith is out of date, that means, then, that salvation by Christ is out of date. There is nothing, in that case, left to us but that each man must just do the best he can to save himself.

Justification by Faith does not mean, then, salvation by believing things instead of doing right. It means pleading the merits of Christ before the throne of grace instead of our own merits. It may be doing right to believe things, and doing right is certainly right. The trouble with pleading our own merits before God is not that merits of our own would not be acceptable to God. The trouble is that we haven't any merits of our own to plead before God. Adam, before his fall, had merits of his own, and because he had merits of his own he was, in his own person, acceptable to God. He didn't need Another to stand between him and God, whose merits he could plead. And, therefore, there was no talk of his being Justified by Faith. But we are not like Adam before the fall; we are sinners and have no merits of our own. If we are to be justified at all, it must be on the ground of the merits of Another, whose merits can be made ours by faith. And that is the reason why God sent His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life. If we do not believe in him, obviously we must perish. But if we believe in him, we shall not perish but have everlasting life. That is Justification by Faith. Justification by Faith is nothing other than obtaining everlasting life by believing in Christ. If Justification by Faith is out of date, then is salvation through Christ out of date. And as there is none other name under heaven, given among men, wherein we must be saved, if salvation through Christ is out of date then is salvation itself out of date. Surely, in a world of sinful men, needing salvation, this would be a great pity.​

​

I like to think of Jesus Christ as the one I casually step behind, while whistling a nonchalant tune, as the eyes of God begin to look in my direction.

 

[ladodgers6]

I like to think of Jesus Christ as the one I casually step behind, while whistling a nonchalant tune, as the eyes of God begin to look in my direction.

I'm not a smart guy, can you explain this for me?

 

[ladodgers6]

Impute is an accounting or legal term. It means that something is credited that isn’t actually there.

Paul says that faith is imputed as righteousness. I think what he actually meant is that God accepts our faith as righteousness, i.e. that faith puts us right with him.

The exegesis is complex, partly because the key terms have a range of meanings. First righteousness. Someone who is righteous is living as God wants, but that person is also in good standing with God. Righteousness is never seen as moral perfection. The righteous person is certainly committed to living a godly life, but they are often far from perfect. They do, however repent when they fail. At any rate, although righteousness can refer to living as God wants, in the context of Paul’s argument it probably refers to being in good standing with God.

(The reason I pick that meaning is that Paul is dealing with the question of whether circumcision defines people as part of the people of God. He argues that it’s faith, not circumcision. So the issue in this particular argument is really good standing as a member of God’s people more than the quality of life, though they clearly go together.

Next we have an issue as to whether circumcision or faith makes you a member of God’s people or is a sign of being a member of God’s people. The two are very close together. I think at times Paul says that justification is a sign of being in good standing with God but at other times says that it puts one right with God. I wonder whether Paul even distinguished the two meanings. However theologians have argued loudly, with N T Wright maintaining that faith is a badge of being one of God’s people. I.e. when Paul says faith is imputed as righteousness he means that faith is the sign of being one of God’s people.

At any rate, it seems clear to me that what Paul is actually saying is that it is faith, not circumcision that defines one / makes one a member of God’s people. I.e. that faith is accepted by God (imputed as) being in the right status (righteous).

Now, in the 16th Cent righteousness seems to have been understood (I think by both sides) as referring to moral perfection. It seems to have been obvious to everyone that God demands moral perfection, since models of the atonement (again, I think on both sides) depended upon Christ being righteous when we can’t be.

Protestants read Paul correctly as saying that being in right standing with God was based on faith. They observed the use of the “imputed” term. Since only a perfect person can stand before God, and Christ was a perfect sacrifice for us, they understood that when faith is imputed as righteousness, what’s really going on is that Christ’s perfection (righteousness) is imputed as ours. It’s a reasonable gloss given the assumptions. But Paul never actually says that Christ’s righteousness is imputed as ours. What he actually says is that our faith is imputed as righteousness.[/QUOTE]

How is our Faith imputed as righteousness, if it is not the Righteousness of Christ?

 

[JacksBratt]

Nothing truly biblical can be "out of Date". God is the same now, before and forever. He never changes, nor do the implications of the gospel and the salvation it brings.

There is no expiry date on this.

The only thing that would deem "justification by faith" as "out of date" would be something that would remove the need for faith... like your death. After you die, you will see Christ face to face. You won't need faith as you will be an eye witness and it will be too late anyway.

The other time will be the end of the period of Grace. This period we now live in. The time from Christs death and resurrection until the tribulation period.

This is the time where we can only believe by faith. After the second coming, we will know by fact, by seeing, by knowledge first hand.

So, no, it is not out of date and cannot become "out of date" until a change of Biblical proportions. Like the coming of our savior. Then, it's too late for faith.

 

[hedrick]

How is our Faith imputed as righteousness, if it is not the Righteousness of Christ?

It's the same thing as justification by faith: God accepts our faith as righteousness. It's faith, not circumcision, that makes us his people. Why? After saying that faith is counted as righteousness in Rom 4:22, Paul goes on to explain that it is faith in Christ who died and was raised for us. This is explained further in Rom 6. Through faith, in baptism, we die with him and are raised with him.

Through Christ we experience new life. I agree that this is in some sense alien righteousness. In the sense that it's not something we earn on our own. We experience it only through our identification with Christ in faith. But Paul doesn't speak of it as imputing Christ's righteousness, because for Paul it's not a legal fiction. It's something real in our lives, though always dependent upon Christ. We ourselves are righteous, i.e. acceptable to God, through faith in Christ.

It's also worth noting the Rom 5:12 doesn't really say that Adam's sin is imputed to us either. It says that Adam brought sin into the human experience, but we all do it. "death spread to all because all have sinned."

Calvin understood that the Fall corrupted our nature, although Paul doesn't actually say that. But even under that traditional understanding, it is our own corrupted nature that makes us sinful. We aren't guilty, either really or by imputation, of Adam's actual sin. We just experience its consequences. (In fact Calvin denies that we are guilty of Adam's actual sin.) Paul's point in that passage is that just as Adam brought sin into human life, Jesus brought redemption. As Adam's sin truly made us sinful, Christ's death and resurrection truly make us righteous. Not morally perfect, but rather acceptable to God.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I'm not a smart guy, can you explain this for me?

Meaning "yes" to the poll question.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm not a smart guy, can you explain this for me?

I think he means that he is hidden in Christ.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

]..It's also worth noting the Rom 5:12 doesn't really say that Adam's sin is imputed to us either. It says that Adam brought sin into the human experience, but we all do it. "death spread to all because all have sinned."

Calvin understood that the Fall corrupted our nature, although Paul doesn't actually say that. But even under that traditional understanding, it is our own corrupted nature that makes us sinful. We aren't guilty, either really or by imputation, of Adam's actual sin. We just experience its consequences. (In fact Calvin denies that we are guilty of Adam's actual sin.) Paul's point in that passage is that just as Adam brought sin into human life, Jesus brought redemption. As Adam's sin truly made us sinful, Christ's death and resurrection truly make us righteous. Not morally perfect, but rather acceptable to God.

I don't want to get into a discussion of depravity because of mentioning imputation thru the first Adam resulting in amputation from God but it's not just in Romans. We are born with a sin-nature acquired from the fall. All need a savior because of it. And there's no other way to remove the sin-nature w/o aquiring a new nature, God's nature imputed to us in a renewed heart.

Ephesians 2:3b
... Like the rest, we were by nature children deserving of wrath.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive​

As it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one.

Of course we are not guilty of Adam's actual sin. Unless we also ate an apple we were told not to.

 

[bling]

Romans chapter 4, I will start with the beginning verses first.

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

In the following verses Paul makes it clear HOW, it is credited to Abraham.


4Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those

whose transgressions are forgiven,

whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the one

whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”

These paragraphs is what B.B. Warfield is highlighting in his article in my OP.

OK, but it is really not proving: “The sinner is credited with the Righteousness of Christ in the Gospel's promise”.

It does bring up some wonderful information though:

“Works” (things you do to earn or deserve a wage) is contrasted with “Faith” (stuff you that would not earn you a wage or is deserving of anything). Trusting in God is not “work”, but it is something you can do and it would be credited as righteousness. If you think about it, trusting in God’s help would be the opposite of self-reliance (doing it by your own power), so that would be “worthy” of nothing and really a humbling activity since the lowliest mature adult on earth can do the same thing.

This passage does not suggest Abraham was imputed with Christ’s righteousness, but Abraham’s internal faith was the result of his righteousness, the same as our faith in Christ can result in a righteousness in us, but it does not say it is Christ’s righteousness being imputed to us. .