Wesley vs Calvin: the Grace of God

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
John Calvin, a 16th century French theologian and pastor, was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his ideas on the sovereignty of God and predestination. He believed that God's grace was a key component of salvation, and that it was given freely to individuals, not based on their merit or works. Calvin taught that God's grace is unmerited favor, and that it is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He emphasized that faith in Jesus Christ and the application of God's grace through the Holy Spirit is what enables a person to live a righteous life.

John Wesley, an 18th century Anglican cleric and Christian revivalist, was the founder of Methodism. He believed that God's grace is freely given to all people, regardless of their personal worth or merit. Wesley taught that grace is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He believed that grace transforms a person's heart, leading to a life of holiness and good works. Wesley also emphasized that God's grace is not limited to a particular time or place, and is available to all people at all times. He taught that grace is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and that it is accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
John Calvin, a 16th century French theologian and pastor, was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his ideas on the sovereignty of God and predestination. He believed that God's grace was a key component of salvation, and that it was given freely to individuals, not based on their merit or works. Calvin taught that God's grace is unmerited favor, and that it is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He emphasized that faith in Jesus Christ and the application of God's grace through the Holy Spirit is what enables a person to live a righteous life.

John Wesley, an 18th century Anglican cleric and Christian revivalist, was the founder of Methodism. He believed that God's grace is freely given to all people, regardless of their personal worth or merit. Wesley taught that grace is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He believed that grace transforms a person's heart, leading to a life of holiness and good works. Wesley also emphasized that God's grace is not limited to a particular time or place, and is available to all people at all times. He taught that grace is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and that it is accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
John Calvin, a 16th century French theologian and pastor, was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his ideas on the sovereignty of God and predestination. He believed that God's grace was a key component of salvation, and that it was given freely to individuals, not based on their merit or works. Calvin taught that God's grace is unmerited favor, and that it is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He emphasized that faith in Jesus Christ and the application of God's grace through the Holy Spirit is what enables a person to live a righteous life.
John Wesley, an 18th century Anglican cleric and Christian revivalist, was the founder of Methodism. He believed that God's grace is freely given to all people, regardless of their personal worth or merit. Wesley taught that grace is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He believed that grace transforms a person's heart, leading to a life of holiness and good works. Wesley also emphasized that God's grace is not limited to a particular time or place, and is available to all people at all times. He taught that grace is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and that it is accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Being inherently sinful, would not grace be necessarily first for man to even have faith in Jesus Christ, for
the inherently sinful do not accept the things of God because they are foolishness to him (1 Co 2:14),
they cannot even see the things of God (the kingdom) apart from the grace of rebirth, (Jn 3:3),
their sinful nature being hostile to God, making it impossible for them to please God (Ro 8:7-8)?
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
John Calvin, a 16th century French theologian and pastor, was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his ideas on the sovereignty of God and predestination. He believed that God's grace was a key component of salvation, and that it was given freely to individuals, not based on their merit or works. Calvin taught that God's grace is unmerited favor, and that it is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He emphasized that faith in Jesus Christ and the application of God's grace through the Holy Spirit is what enables a person to live a righteous life.

John Wesley, an 18th century Anglican cleric and Christian revivalist, was the founder of Methodism. He believed that God's grace is freely given to all people, regardless of their personal worth or merit. Wesley taught that grace is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He believed that grace transforms a person's heart, leading to a life of holiness and good works. Wesley also emphasized that God's grace is not limited to a particular time or place, and is available to all people at all times. He taught that grace is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and that it is accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Those two statements are framed so as to be in agremeent with each other. But in reality I am pretty sure there were doctrinal differences between Wesley and Calvin
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,681.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Those two statements are framed so as to be in agremeent with each other. But in reality I am pretty sure there were doctrinal differences between Wesley and Calvin
I think you're right. . .assuming it refers to saving grace, note the

grace was given freely to individuals (Calvin)
and
grace is freely given to all people (Wesley)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Those two statements are framed so as to be in agremeent with each other. But in reality I am pretty sure there were doctrinal differences between Wesley and Calvin
Yes, there was a difference between John Wesley and John Calvin. John Wesley was an Anglican clergyman and Christian theologian who is credited with founding the Methodist movement in the 18th century. Wesley emphasized the importance of a personal relationship with God through faith and the exercise of Christian virtues, such as piety and charity. He also stressed the importance of social justice and working to improve the lives of the poor and marginalized.

John Calvin, on the other hand, was a French theologian and reformer who lived in the 16th century. He was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his teachings on predestination, the idea that God has already determined who will be saved and who will be condemned. Calvin also emphasized the authority of scripture and the need for a strict moral code in Christian living.

While both Wesley and Calvin had a significant impact on the development of Christianity, their teachings and theological perspectives were distinct, and their legacies continue to influence different branches of the Christian church.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
John Wesley, who lived in the 18th century, had mixed views of John Calvin, who lived in the 16th century. On one hand, Wesley appreciated Calvin's emphasis on the sovereignty of God and the importance of scriptural authority. On the other hand, Wesley disagreed with Calvin's doctrine of predestination, which holds that God has already chosen who will be saved and who will be damned, regardless of their actions or beliefs. Wesley believed that salvation was open to all people through faith in Jesus Christ and that individuals had the ability to choose their own spiritual path.

In his writings, Wesley also criticized Calvin's approach to worship, which he saw as overly formal and lacking in emotional expression. Wesley, in contrast, emphasized the importance of lively, heartfelt worship that celebrated the love of God and inspired spiritual growth.

Despite these differences, Wesley and Calvin both had a profound impact on the development of Christianity and their legacies continue to shape religious thought and practice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pioneer3mm
Upvote 0

Bob Crowley

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 27, 2015
2,999
1,858
69
Logan City
✟747,016.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Wesley's theology was Arminian, and not Calvinistic.

I joined the Wesleyan Methodists for a couple of years and the pastor commented during a sermon that their theology was Arminian. He said it almost in passing.

When I was Presbyterian, my old pastor whom I often quote or refer to was originally Methodist. He wasn't hung up on Calvinism, even though he had become a Presbyterian pastor. But I think that decision was more to do with dissatisfaction with the Uniting Church than a strong belief in the Presbyterian ethos.

Back in the 1977 the Congregationalists, Methodists and some Presbyterian Churches in Australia merged to form the Uniting Church (which is still going). As the pastor was Methodist he had no choice but to join the Uniting Church. But as I said he was dissatisfied and later left to join the Presbyterian Church.

I sensed he thought some of their policies were too liberal although he didn't say so. He was a conservative.

What he did say to me in his office one day was that the Uniting Church seemed to play politics with their pastors, putting a left wing and right wing pastor in the same parish for example. He sacrificed a lot of superannuation in making the change.

As it happened I became Christian in late 1982 which was only 5 years after the Uniting Church started. So he hadn't long been in the Presbyterian Church when I joined myself and became a member of his parish.

Anyway the Wesley's theology was Arminian.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
That
I joined the Wesleyan Methodists for a couple of years and the pastor commented during a sermon that their theology was Arminian. He said it almost in passing.
That is not true. The pastors do lie about the teachings of Wesley. That was why I left the Methodist church. Wesley actually considered following the teaching of Calvan but it was not a good fit for him. That is why he decided to begin the Holiness movement. He regretted that he was not more strict and was a bit liberal in the way people dressed and cut their hair.

Holiness churches follow neither Calvan nor Arminian. It is not unusual for them to ignore Wesley as the beginning of the movement that they are a part of. There are churches that teach you have to pick between Calvin and Arminian and never consider they may both be wrong and that Wesley is a third choice.

Wesley, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was a devout Anglican priest who was influenced by the teachings of the Puritans and the Moravian Brethren, but he did not follow the teachings of Calvinism. He was opposed to some of the central tenets of Calvinism, such as predestination and the idea that faith alone was sufficient for salvation. Wesley believed in the concept of "prevenient grace," which held that God's grace could awaken in people the ability to choose faith and good works.

In America the Pilgrims & Puritians did become united. As I was in a Pilgrim church.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I think you're right. . .assuming it refers to saving grace, note the

grace was given freely to individuals (Calvin)
and
grace is freely given to all people (Wesley)
freely given to individuals is like saying "individuals are saved or lost, not entire nation groups". So in one context it might be trying to cover all - and the other way it could be taken to imply "an arbitrarily selected set of a couple of individuals" - most often it is assumed to be the first.

by not saying "grace is freely given to an arbitrarily select set of a few individuals" the differences between Wesley and Calvin are masked.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Wesley's theology was Arminian, and not Calvinistic.
True. That is pretty much a given.
I joined the Wesleyan Methodists for a couple of years and the pastor commented during a sermon that their theology was Arminian. He said it almost in passing.
Yep - that is how it has been since the start.

Anyway the Wesley's theology was Arminian.
And that makes it hard to understand why people switch back and forth between Methodist and Presbyterian as if there is no difference between Calvinism and Arminian views of salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Bob Crowley

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 27, 2015
2,999
1,858
69
Logan City
✟747,016.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
And that makes it hard to understand why people switch back and forth between Methodist and Presbyterian as if there is no difference between Calvinism and Arminian views of salvation.

I don't know if you're referring to my pastor, but he only switched once. And that was due more to dissatisfaction with the Uniting Church than a sense that the Presbyterians had all the truth.

He wasn't very Calvinistic, and in one sermon, and I quote, he remarked "John Calvin was an old reprobate. He really was!"

I think it was tongue in cheek to some extent, but you wouldn't have heard too many hardline Presbyterians make that comment.

Incidentally while I was Presbyterian, I didn't get involved in theological debates. None of us did, and I don't think too many of the parishioners would have been familiar with John Calvin's teachings. I wasn't - I've got his "Institutes" on my shelf now, but I still haven't read it.

I think the only reason I was Presbyterian was due to my mother's ability to talk to anyone. My father was (nominally - unbelieving) Catholic and she was (nominally) Anglican. When they got married in 1953, the rules about who could marry who and where were pretty strict. She also worked in a store called McWhirters in Brisbane.

Right behind the store was an historical Presbyterian Church. I suspect she soft talked the reverend of the time to marry them. Apparently he agreed, probably on the condition that any offspring would become Presbyterian. And that's how I think I became Presbyterian - not some hardline historical Scottish link to John Knox, but a couple of people wanting to get married when the rules were a bit intransigent. And in any case she came from English stock and he was from Irish descent - Crowley is an Irish name. No Scots involved.


As one consequence of my religious journey from that beginning, I take the whole business of holier than thou denominalationism with a very cynical dose of salt.

The church building itself has fallen into secular hands, and the church and Sunday School are used as nightclubs(!) as per the following paragraph. Note it also refers to the Uniting Church merger in 1977. The Methodists and Congregationalists went in holus-bolus, whereas the Presbyterians voted parish by parish if they'd join or not. Some did, some didn't.

However, the church continued to hold services until the Presbyterian, Methodist and Congregational churches in Australia were amalgamated in 1977, and the property was transferred to the Uniting Church in 1980. In 1989 the Valley Presbyterian was sold to a private company and was converted to a Greek Restaurant. The restaurant ceased to operate in the mid 1990s. At present, the church and Sunday School are owned by the Warner Street Unit Trust, and both are used as nightclubs.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BBAS 64

Contributor
Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,850
1,708
58
New England
✟484,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wesley and Whitefield two contemporaries two great friends that agreed to disagree.


 
Pioneer3mm
Pioneer3mm
Good point..
- about Wesley & Whitefield.
---
Interesting historical note:
George Whitefield had an impact/influence..
- during the 'Great Awakening.'
Upvote 0
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
That

That is not true. The pastors do lie about the teachings of Wesley. That was why I left the Methodist church. Wesley actually considered following the teaching of Calvan but it was not a good fit for him. That is why he decided to begin the Holiness movement. He regretted that he was not more strict and was a bit liberal in the way people dressed and cut their hair.

Holiness churches follow neither Calvan nor Arminian. It is not unusual for them to ignore Wesley as the beginning of the movement that they are a part of. There are churches that teach you have to pick between Calvin and Arminian and never consider they may both be wrong and that Wesley is a third choice.

Wesley, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was a devout Anglican priest who was influenced by the teachings of the Puritans and the Moravian Brethren, but he did not follow the teachings of Calvinism. He was opposed to some of the central tenets of Calvinism, such as predestination and the idea that faith alone was sufficient for salvation. Wesley believed in the concept of "prevenient grace," which held that God's grace could awaken in people the ability to choose faith and good works.

In America the Pilgrims & Puritians did become united. As I was in a Pilgrim church.
Let's say, "arminianistic", then. What really is the difference between Arminianism and Wesleyanism?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,118
10,509
Georgia
✟899,962.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That

That is not true. The pastors do lie about the teachings of Wesley. That was why I left the Methodist church. Wesley actually considered following the teaching of Calvin but it was not a good fit for him.
Ok so you admit that Wesley was no Calvinists even your own post.

from: WESLEYAN-ARMINIAN

"WESLEYAN-ARMINIANISM is a theological position that blends concepts Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609) and John Wesley (1703-1791). Arminius was a minister of the Dutch Reformed Church and Professor of Theology at Leiden, Holland. He was noted for his opposition to the strict Calvinism doctrine of predestination. John Wesley was and Anglican priest and scholar whose evangelistic work produced a major revival in the British Isles and later became the foundation for the Methodist Church. Wesley was noted for his "method" of holiness and his teaching on the "second blessing" that brings a grace that enables Christians to live holy lives."​
... What is difficult for Christians of other theological persuasions to comprehend about Wesleyan-Arminianism is the belief that imperfect humans can actually live without committing sin and in continual submission to the leading of God in their lives.​


Wesley, John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was a devout Anglican priest who was influenced by the teachings of the Puritans and the Moravian Brethren, but he did not follow the teachings of Calvinism. He was opposed to some of the central tenets of Calvinism, such as predestination and the idea that faith alone was sufficient for salvation. Wesley believed in the concept of "prevenient grace," which held that God's grace could awaken in people the ability to choose faith and good works.
No wonder they call it "Weleyan-Arminianism"
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Ok so you admit that Wesley was no Calvinists even your own post.
Yes, I studied all of that when I was in the Methodist Church. But the pastor and I did not agree on what Wesley was teaching, so I left the church.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,525
✟320,727.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
John Calvin, a 16th century French theologian and pastor, was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his ideas on the sovereignty of God and predestination. He believed that God's grace was a key component of salvation, and that it was given freely to individuals, not based on their merit or works. Calvin taught that God's grace is unmerited favor, and that it is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He emphasized that faith in Jesus Christ and the application of God's grace through the Holy Spirit is what enables a person to live a righteous life.

John Wesley, an 18th century Anglican cleric and Christian revivalist, was the founder of Methodism. He believed that God's grace is freely given to all people, regardless of their personal worth or merit. Wesley taught that grace is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He believed that grace transforms a person's heart, leading to a life of holiness and good works. Wesley also emphasized that God's grace is not limited to a particular time or place, and is available to all people at all times. He taught that grace is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and that it is accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Wesley's view here, as presented in your paragraph on him, are essentially the same as the early church, and as the modern churches that have carried down that same theology from the beginning.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond7

YEC, OEC, GAP, TE - Dispensationalist.
Nov 23, 2022
4,416
622
72
Akron
✟67,492.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Wesley's view here, as presented in your paragraph on him, are essentially the same as the early church, and as the modern churches that have carried down that same theology from the beginning.
A lot of the church does not believe we need to live right before God. Wesley like Paul teaches that we need to live Holy Sanctified lives before God. "Works" do not save us to live right is evidence that we are saved. We benefit when we live right before God. Of course, there is an enemy that wants to lead people astray to destroy them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,887
3,525
✟320,727.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
A lot of the church does not believe we need to live right before God. Wesley like Paul teaches that we need to live Holy Sanctified lives before God. "Works" do not save us to live right is evidence that we are saved. We benefit when we live right before God. Of course, there is an enemy that wants to lead people astray to destroy them.
All of the chruch, from the beginning and for centuries later, taught that "we need to live Holy Sanctified lives before God", with Him enabling us to do so.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:23

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14
 
Upvote 0