Wesley vs Calvin: the Grace of God

Mark Quayle

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The Bible is a complex and multi-layered text that has been studied and interpreted by scholars, theologians, and believers for centuries. Some parts of the Bible may be difficult to understand or interpret.

There are many resources available to help people understand the Bible. If you feel that I am not able to help you then maybe you could give the chatbot an opportunity. Or wiki is a good resource.

I understand you want to deflect attention from the Bible to me. But you have still failed to show that the Bible is not 100% true and accurate. The subject of attention is the Bible, not me.
You seem to be arguing someone else. I'm not the one who doesn't believe the Bible is not 100% true and accurate, and I'm not the one looking for help understanding the Bible. If you actually meant that for me, then kindly go back and edit it out, because your implications are not kind nor true.
 
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Mark Quayle

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We are co-heirs with Christ. He lived His life as an example for us to follow.

Jesus consistently glorifies the Father in the Bible, emphasizing that he has come to do the will of the Father and to serve and honor him. His focus on glorifying the Father reflects his humility and teaches us to put God first.
Did I even hint otherwise? Why don't you answer the question?
 
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QvQ

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When I studied denominations, Calvin and Wesley seemed to be on opposite ends of the spectrum of Protestant.
Prevenient Grace implies a method to access that Grace? Yes or no?
So there are acts of will and acts of work required.

Didn't Wesley introduce the concept of "working out" our salvation?
 
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Clare73

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When I studied denominations, Calvin and Wesley seemed to be on opposite ends of the spectrum of Protestant.
Prevenient Grace implies a method to access that Grace? Yes or no?
So there are acts of will and acts of work required.

Didn't Wesley introduce the concept of "working out" our salvation?
No, see Php 2:12-13.
 
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QvQ

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No, see Php 2:12-13.
I was referring to this aspect of Wesley:

And a direct quote:
"Secondly, God worketh in you; therefore you must work: You must be "workers together with him," (they are the very words of the Apostle) otherwise he will cease working."

So, working out our salvation to Wesley is very different from Calvin.
And possibly very different from the Php 2:12-13
 
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Clare73

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I was referring to this aspect of Wesley:
And a direct quote:
"Secondly, God worketh in you; therefore you must work: You must be "workers together with him," (they are the very words of the Apostle) otherwise he will cease working."
So, working out our salvation to Wesley is very different from Calvin.
And possibly very different from the Php 2:12-13
I can't really speak to Calvin's "working out our salvation."

Do you know what it is?
 
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QvQ

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I can't really speak to Calvin's "working out our salvation."

Do you know what it is?

A direct quote
'It is God that calls us, and offers to us salvation; it is our part to embrace by faith what he gives, and by obedience act suitably to his calling; but we have neither from ourselves. Hence we act only when he has prepared us for acting."

"The word which he (Paul) employs properly signifies — to continue until the end; but we must keep in mind what I have said, that Paul does not reason here as to how far our ability extends, but simply teaches that God acts in us in such a manner, that he, at the same time, does not allow us to be inactive, (124) but exercises us diligently, after having stirred us up by a secret influence. (125)"
 
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Clare73

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I was referring to this aspect of Wesley:

John Wesley, Sermon 85: On Working Out Our Own Salvation

We will observe that grand truth, which ought never to be out of our of remembrance, 'It is God that worketh in us, both to will and to do of his own good pleasure; the improvement we ought to make of it: 'Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;' and the connexion between them: 'It...
A direct quote from John Calvin:
'It is God that calls us, and offers to us salvation; it is our part to embrace by faith what he gives, and by obedience act suitably to his calling; but we have neither from ourselves. Hence we act only when he has prepared us for acting."

"The word which he (Paul) employs properly signifies — to continue until the end; but we must keep in mind what I have said, that Paul does not reason here as to how far our ability extends, but simply teaches that God acts in us in such a manner, that he, at the same time, does not allow us to be inactive, (124) but exercises us diligently, after having stirred us up by a secret influence. (125)"
Thanks!

They sound the same to me.
 
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QvQ

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Thanks!

They sound the same to me.
Yes, they sounds the same except where they don't:

"Secondly, God worketh in you; therefore you must work: You must be "workers together with him," (they are the very words of the Apostle) otherwise he will cease working." John Wesley

By this means he (Paul) shuts out the contrivance of the sophists as to subsequent grace, which they imagine to be the reward of merit. John Calvin


*you must work ..or he will cease working
(Wesley)

*Subsequent Grace which they imagine is the reward for merit. (Calvin)
 
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Clare73

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Yes, they sounds the same except where they don't:
"Secondly, God worketh in you; therefore you must work: You must be "workers together with him," (they are the very words of the Apostle) otherwise he will cease working." John Wesley
By this means he (Paul) shuts out the contrivance of the sophists as to subsequent grace, which they imagine to be the reward of merit. John Calvin
*you must work ..or he will cease working (Wesley)
*Subsequent Grace which they imagine is the reward for merit. (Calvin)
Right, they are not the same. . .thanks!
 
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John Calvin, a 16th century French theologian and pastor, was a key figure in the Protestant Reformation and is best known for his ideas on the sovereignty of God and predestination. He believed that God's grace was a key component of salvation, and that it was given freely to individuals, not based on their merit or works. Calvin taught that God's grace is unmerited favor, and that it is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He emphasized that faith in Jesus Christ and the application of God's grace through the Holy Spirit is what enables a person to live a righteous life.

John Wesley, an 18th century Anglican cleric and Christian revivalist, was the founder of Methodism. He believed that God's grace is freely given to all people, regardless of their personal worth or merit. Wesley taught that grace is necessary for a person to be saved, as humanity is inherently sinful and unable to save itself. He believed that grace transforms a person's heart, leading to a life of holiness and good works. Wesley also emphasized that God's grace is not limited to a particular time or place, and is available to all people at all times. He taught that grace is received through faith in Jesus Christ, and that it is accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
And I disagree with both Calvin and Wesley. Grace has been given to all mankind and is accessed through faith; God’s grace upon grace is based on one’s faith which ”Faith” is an earnest desire to be pleasing to God because God first loved us.

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. 12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matthew 22:14

Do you know why Jesus used parables?

Jesus doesn’t lie. Break John 15:1-8 down into bullet points…

I Am the True Vine​

15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
 
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Diamond7

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God’s grace upon grace is based on one’s faith which ”Faith” is an earnest desire to be pleasing to God because God first loved us.
Grace is a work of God in us. Even the Faith of God is a work in us. Human faith or positive thinking is powerful but no were near as powerful as the Faith of God in us.
 
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Diamond7

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Do you know why Jesus used parables?
Yes, I took teacher training at the Bible college and we studied how Jesus would teach. The objective is for people to remember the teachings. So He would teach in a way that people would not forget the lesson.
 
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Douglas Brian McIntire

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Grace is a work of God in us. Even the Faith of God is a work in us. Human faith or positive thinking is powerful but no were near as powerful as the Faith of God in us.
Who will be your teacher?

8
Do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. (Matthew 23)

Who do you want to be like?

39
And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. 41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Two types of People...

Type 1

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

Type 2
49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” (Luke 16:39-49)

Do you have access to a concordance or Bible app to help you with the original New Testament Greek language? Who are you going to believe, those who translated Greek into English, or the original writers of the New Testament? Furthermore, who are you going to learn from? Today's inherently wicked hearts which are not without sin, or the writers of the New Testament who wrote the Word of Jesus's; the Word of God?

The True Light​

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power of choice (ἐξουσία; exousia) to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:6-13)

God's grace: ἐξουσία; exousia; power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases...

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power of choice (ἐξουσία; exousia) to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Born of God...​

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son​

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. (John 15:15-24)

Grace is the "Power of Choice" to "believe" Jesus the way "Abraham Believed God" and not of obligation but "belief" which compels a person to respond and act through "Faith" choosing to be obedient to Jesus's teachings BEFORE receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who says differently believes they know more than the writers of the New Testament.

Jesus Gives True Rest​

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
 
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Who will be your teacher?

8
Do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. (Matthew 23)

Who do you want to be like?

39
And He spoke a parable to them: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into the ditch? 40 A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher. 41 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye? 42 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me remove the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the plank that is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

43 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Two types of People...

Type 1

46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

Type 2
49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” (Luke 16:39-49)

Do you have access to a concordance or Bible app to help you with the original New Testament Greek language? Who are you going to believe, those who translated Greek into English, or the original writers of the New Testament? Furthermore, who are you going to learn from? Today's inherently wicked hearts which are not without sin, or the writers of the New Testament who wrote the Words of Jesus; the Words of God?

The True Light​

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power of choice (ἐξουσία; exousia) to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:6-13)

God's grace: ἐξουσία; exousia; power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases...

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power of choice (ἐξουσία; exousia) to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

How does one become a Child of God?

14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15
John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

How does one become Born of God?

Born of God...​

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Indwelling of the Father and the Son​

19 “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me. (John 15:15-24)

Grace is the "Power of Choice" to "believe" Jesus the way "Abraham Believed God" and not of obligation but "belief" which compels a person to respond and act through "Faith" choosing to be obedient to Jesus's teachings BEFORE receiving the promise of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who says differently believes they know more than the writers of the New Testament.

Jesus Gives True Rest​

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:25-29)

Paul wrote to the 1st Century Colossians (Paul was not writing to you, but we can take this as a warning)...

8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Colossians 2:8-10)

John wrote to the 1st Century believer (Not to you, unless)...

6
We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:6)

Paul wrote to Timothy explaining a fact and unchanging principle no matter how "you" interpret the context...

Error and Greed​

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. (1 Timothy 6:3-5)

John writes again to the 1st Century believer...

9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God
. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds. (2 John 1:9-11)

If you have read this far, you are amazing. If you are going to reply, reply beginning with, "I have read all that you posted." You and I can have a conversation. Anyone who does not reply with my request are only out for their own interests (Philippians 2:3-4).
 
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