Nation in Isaiah 18

trident343 · Oct 9, 2006

I would like to hear opinions on which nation is described here.

Isaiah 18 (KJV)

1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:

2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.

6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.
7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.

NumberOneSon · Oct 9, 2006

trident343 said:
I would like to hear opinions on which nation is described here.

The ancient nation of Nubia.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

SH89 · Oct 9, 2006

Acts6:5 said:
The ancient nation of Nubia.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

How did you determine this?

trident343 · Oct 9, 2006

Acts6:5 said:
The ancient nation of Nubia.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

It would be great if you could elaborate. I would like to hear more.

DanJudge · Oct 10, 2006

trident343 said:
I would like to hear opinions on which nation is described here.

Isaiah 18 (KJV)

1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:

2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.

6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.

7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.

Trident343/Brothers/Sisters, This is a chapter from that "little book" of Revelation chapter 10.
Seek and You will Find.

ISAIAH 18

IN WHICH ANNOUNCEMENT IS MADE TO THOSE SCATTERED BEYOND THE SEA OF THE LIBERATION OF SOUTHERN AFRICA

1 Hail to the land shadowed by wings, which is past the rivers of Nubia;

2 That sends ambassadors by sea, even with artifacts of papyrus upon the surface of the waters, saying, "Go, swift messengers, to a nation scattered and become plunder, to a people whose history has been fearful from of old; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, who were taken as spoil down the rivers of their land."

3 All who inhabit the world and dwell upon the earth, when He raises a standard upon the mountains,look; and when He sounds the ram’s horn, listen.

4 For so has the LORD said to me, "I will be still and will observe from My dwelling place, like clear heat shimmering, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest."

5 Because before the harvest, when the bud is complete and the flower becomes a ripening grape, He will cut off the sprigs with pruning knives, and take away and cut down the branches.

6 They will be left together for the birds of prey of the mountains and for the beasts of the earth; and the birds of prey will spend the summer feasting on them, and all the beasts of the earth will feast on them through the winter.

7 At that time an offering will be brought to the LORD of hosts from a people scattered and become plunder, and from a people whose history has been fearful from of old, a nation meted out and trodden under foot, who were taken as spoil down the rivers of their land, to the place of the Name of the LORD of hosts, the mount of Zion.

The joy of the great Afro-American diaspora at the liberation of southern Africa and the extirpation of the militantly racist settler element that dominates it now is here prophesied. Nubia is the ancient name of the Sudan, whose rivers extend to Lake Victoria in Uganda. The land referred to is, of course, "past the rivers" from the perspective of Palestine. The "wings" are the massive projections of the northern portion of the continent to the east and west. "Artifacts of papyrus" are books or the like; "whose history has been fearful" in the sense of tragic. The "pruning knives" symbolize the liberation forces.

And we may understand that these ambassadors journey over the sea not only to declare good tidings here but also to invite rotating cadres of black American administrators and technicians to southern Africa to replace the reprobates and so help ensure the continued prosperity of that land during a transitional period to follow their overthrow and to conclude with the founding of a Christian communalist democracy of the type discussed at some length elsewhere. And who can know whether the aid of black Americans might not ultimately be sought by the victims of yet other tyrannical or dictatorial African regimes as well, or in abrogating that gruesome form of racist stratification known as "caste" introduced into the society and religion of ancient India by her ethnically European Indo-Aryan conquerors, who being few in number devised a corpus of apartheid legislation in those days and then preached it as revealed dogma among the subjugated peoples, a root destined to bear gall and woe in every age; as that of other Americans will surely be for the liberation and social and economic restructuring of their own ancestral homelands within either the Celtic culture zone of the British Isles or the Soviet colonial sphere in Eastern Europe, or the restoration of the ancient peasant social order in Mexico and throughout the whole of Latin America, or the re-establishment of an independent Tahuantinsuyu encompassing the zone of Incan heritage and Quechuan speech and culture within the territory of the present Andean republics — and as is only just and right after many aeons of torment and spoliation and the Indian utterly isolated and uncomprehending, surrounded by lies and the power of the gun and the leer of the conqueror indelibly branded on every face?

Raise the standard over the walls of Babylon; strengthen the guard, set up watchmen, prepare ambushes; for the LORD has both devised and performed what He has spoken against the inhabitants of Babylon. O you who dwell by many waters, abundant in treasures, your end has come, even the reward for your covetousness! The LORD has sworn by Himself, saying, "Surely I will fill you with men as with locusts and they will raise the war cry against you!"

— Jeremiah 51:12-14

—Barry I. Hyman
CHRISTIAN REVOLUTIONARY BROTHERHOOD

Peace be with You All
DanJudge

Zadok7000 · Oct 10, 2006

trident343 said:
I would like to hear opinions on which nation is described here.

Isaiah 18 (KJV)

1 Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia:

2 That sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters, saying, Go, ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and peeled, to a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden down, whose land the rivers have spoiled!

3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.

4 For so the LORD said unto me, I will take my rest, and I will consider in my dwelling place like a clear heat upon herbs, and like a cloud of dew in the heat of harvest.

5 For afore the harvest, when the bud is perfect, and the sour grape is ripening in the flower, he shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches.

6 They shall be left together unto the fowls of the mountains, and to the beasts of the earth: and the fowls shall summer upon them, and all the beasts of the earth shall winter upon them.
7 In that time shall the present be brought unto the LORD of hosts of a people scattered and peeled, and from a people terrible from their beginning hitherto; a nation meted out and trodden under foot, whose land the rivers have spoiled, to the place of the name of the LORD of hosts, the mount Zion.

As I broke down in another thread, this chapter describes the United States of America. Head of the House of Israel.

NumberOneSon · Oct 10, 2006

Trident343 said:
It would be great if you could elaborate. I would like to hear more.

Certainly. Chapters 18-20 are all connected. At the time Isaiah received the prophecy, Assyria was preparing to invade the entire Middle Eastern area. Nubia (or Cush, in some translations) sent “messengers” (i.e. - emissaries) to convince the nations around them to march with them against Assyria, but Isaiah had already told Hezekiah that God alone would defend Judah against Sennacherib’s forces, while the nations who did not trust in God (like Cush), would fall.

So chapter 18 (and 19) is a prophecy against Cush/Egypt, telling the messengers to go back to Cush without Judah’s aid (v. 2) because God had already ordained their destruction at Assyria’s hand because they trusted in their own might to save them. Chapter 20:1-6 repeats this same message. And then once Assyria finished doing the Lord’s bidding, he would punish Assyria and destroy them in turn. That would lead the nations to bring gifts to Mount Zion (v. 7). This historical fulfillment is recorded for us in 2 Chronicles 32:23.

These prophecies were specifically written concerning events that occurred in ancient times and have already found their direct fulfillment in history. Unless Jesus or the Gospel writers say otherwise, there is no reason to try and find another fulfillment in Isaiah 18 applied to our future, like trying to fit America somewhere into chapter 18. That’s my opinion.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

SH89 · Oct 10, 2006

Acts6:5 said:
Certainly. Chapters 18-20 are all connected. At the time Isaiah received the prophecy, Assyria was preparing to invade the entire Middle Eastern area. Nubia (or Cush, in some translations) sent messengers (i.e. - emissaries) to convince the nations around them to march with them against Assyria, but Isaiah had already told Hezekiah that God alone would defend Judah against Sennacheribs forces, while the nations who did not trust in God (like Cush), would fall.

So chapter 18 (and 19) is a prophecy against Cush/Egypt, telling the messengers to go back to Cush without Judahs aid (v. 2) because God had already ordained their destruction at Assyrias hand because they trusted in their own might to save them. Chapter 20:1-6 repeats this same message. And then once Assyria finished doing the Lords bidding, he would punish Assyria and destroy them in turn. That would lead the nations to bring gifts to Mount Zion (v. 7). This historical fulfillment is recorded for us in 2 Chronicles 32:23.

These prophecies were specifically written concerning events that occurred in ancient times and have already found their direct fulfillment in history. Unless Jesus or the Gospel writers say otherwise, there is no reason to try and find another fulfillment in Isaiah 18 applied to our future, like trying to fit America somewhere into chapter 18. Thats my opinion.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

That makes perfect sense(i.e., a literal apporah to scripture rather than "spiritualizing" the text). Thanks!

Zadok7000 · Oct 10, 2006

Acts6:5 said:
So chapter 18 (and 19) is a prophecy against Cush/Egypt, telling the messengers to go back to Cush without Judah’s aid (v. 2) because God had already ordained their destruction at Assyria’s hand because they trusted in their own might to save them. Chapter 20:1-6 repeats this same message. And then once Assyria finished doing the Lord’s bidding, he would punish Assyria and destroy them in turn. That would lead the nations to bring gifts to Mount Zion (v. 7). This historical fulfillment is recorded for us in 2 Chronicles 32:23.

Other than the fact that Chapter 18 is not talking about Cush? (which is beyond the rivers of...the only thing beyond the rivers of Cush is the ocean)

Egypt is specifically mentioned in Chapter 19.

The "land shadowing with wings" describes neither Cush nor Egypt. It is expounding on Chapter 14 (v. 1-3) - the land the House of Israel will possess to rule over their enemies.

The nation of Cush does NOT meet the conditions laid out in Chapter 18:
Scattered and peeled ("out-spread and polished")
Terrible from their beginning
Meted out and trotten down ("stalwart and strong")
Rivers spoiled the land ("quartering the sacrifice")

Vessels of bulrushes? Think about that...
Does the world listen when it blows its trumpet of war?
Does the world take notice when its ensign is raised?

This gathering at Zion is described in Isa. 11, not 2 Chronicles.

IMHO, of course.

NumberOneSon · Oct 11, 2006

Zadok7000 said:
Other than the fact that Chapter 18 is not talking about Cush? (which is beyond the rivers of...the only thing beyond the rivers of Cush is the ocean)

I think you’re stretching the usage of “beyond” a tad bit. The word eber in Hebrew simply means “other side” or “opposite side” - nothing as drastic as you’re proposing. Every other example of eber I’ve seen in the OT seems to support my view. For instance, Genesis 50:11 says Joseph went out from Egypt and buried his father in a place called Abelmazraim, “which is beyond (eber) the Jordan”. Abelmazraim was simply on the other side of the Jordan river. Even Isaiah uses eber to convey that same “other side of the river” meaning in Isaiah 7:20.

Incidentally, the only thing “beyond the rivers of Cush” to the west is hundreds of miles of desert, not ocean. The only ocean which receives water from the Cush rivers is the Indian ocean, which doesn’t do anything to point to America. How could the ancient rivers of Nubia possibly serve as a prophetic, geographic marker aimed at the North American continent? Simple answer: they don’t.

Zadok7000 said:
Egypt is specifically mentioned in Chapter 19.

Right. And both Cush and Egypt are then mentioned together in chapter 20 as Assyria threatens to unleash it’s forces on them. Like I said, chapters 18-20 are all connected.

Zadok7000 said:
The "land shadowing with wings" describes neither Cush nor Egypt.

Sure course it does. The description is probably referring to human armies, like in Isaiah 8:8.

The Jews have always believed Isaiah 18 referred to ancient Cush. Every commentator throughout Church history that I have read has believed the exact same thing. Me personally, I see it as plain as day, so upon what are you basing your interpretation? Divine revelation? What, exactly? I’m curious.

Zadok7000 said:
It is expounding on Chapter 14 (v. 1-3) - the land the House of Israel will possess to rule over their enemies.

I couldn’t disagree more. Chapter 14 was about Babylon’s defeat and Israel’s vindication; chapter 18 is about Cush’s defeat by Assyria. Babylon would never be identified with the “rivers of Ethiopia” or bulrush vessels (let alone America), but Cush would. Why would chapter 18 expound on just three verses of chapter 14? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

Zadok7000 said:
The nation of Cush does NOT meet the conditions laid out in Chapter 18:

Zadok7000 said:
Scattered and peeled ("out-spread and polished")

Sure it does. “Scattered” is an apt description of the Cush people. “Peeled” (mowrat) is a perfect descriptor as well since the Cush/Egyptian people were known for their smooth, clean-shaven skin, unlike the Semitic peoples.

Zadok7000 said:
Terrible from their beginning

The Cush were known as ferocious warriors, and having gained control over Egypt, they were the superpower in the region…until Assyria flexed its muscles, of course.

Zadok7000 said:
Meted out and trotten down ("stalwart and strong")

Again, an apt description of Cush

Zadok7000 said:
Rivers spoiled the land ("quartering the sacrifice")

Don’t have any idea where you are getting that interpretation; it’s certainly not from the Hebrew wording. “Spoiled” (baza) simply means “divided”. The rivers divided the land, meaning there were lots of them. Have you ever checked out a map of Africa where Cush would have been? The region has an abundance of rivers and streams. Rivers definitely “divide” the land.

Zadok7000 said:
Vessels of bulrushes? Think about that...

Zadok7000 said:
Does the world listen when it blows its trumpet of war?
Does the world take notice when its ensign is raised?

The world in Sennacherib’s day definitely would have listened and taken notice when the Assyrian horns blew and the Assyrian ensign rose. Cush certainlytook notice, because, as prophesied, their doom followed close behind. And bulrush vessels would have been the vessels of choice used by ambassadors from North Africa to navigate up the Mediterranean Sea toward Judah. Much faster than traveling on foot.

Zadok7000 said:
This gathering at Zion is described in Isa. 11, not 2 Chronicles.

That’s plausible, although I do feel the 2Chronicles reference is a much closer parallel.

Zadok7000 said:
IMHO, of course.

Of course.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Zadok7000 · Oct 11, 2006

Acts6:5 said:
I think you’re stretching the usage of “beyond” a tad bit. The word eber in Hebrew simply means “other side” or “opposite side” - nothing as drastic as you’re proposing

Doesn't have to be drastic, just demonstrates that the land being discussed is not Cush.

Incidentally, the only thing “beyond the rivers of Cush” to the west is hundreds of miles of desert, not ocean.

Not to the east. Point being, it's a far off place.

The only ocean which receives water from the Cush rivers is the Indian ocean, which doesn’t do anything to point to America. How could the ancient rivers of Nubia possibly serve as a prophetic, geographic marker aimed at the North American continent? Simple answer: they don’t.

Nothing has to geographically "point" to America in verse 1. It is the preponderance of the conditions that "points" to it. To the reader, Cush was the "edge" of the known world. Anything "beyond" it crosses a threshold.

Right. And both Cush and Egypt are then mentioned together in chapter 20 as Assyria threatens to unleash it’s forces on them. Like I said, chapters 18-20 are all connected.

19 and 20 are connected, for the reasons you stated. 18 is not. Parenthetical insertions are nothing new in the Bible. The House of Israel was to be re-married by God and set in a new land after their Assyrian Captivity.

The Jews have always believed Isaiah 18 referred to ancient Cush. Every commentator throughout Church history that I have read has believed the exact same thing. Me personally, I see it as plain as day, so upon what are you basing your interpretation? Divine revelation? What, exactly? I’m curious.

C'mon man, don't go there. I'm basing it on Scripture and Scripture alone. I don't really care who agrees with me and who doesn't.

I couldn’t disagree more. Chapter 14 was about Babylon’s defeat and Israel’s vindication; chapter 18 is about Cush’s defeat by Assyria. Babylon would never be identified with the “rivers of Ethiopia” or bulrush vessels (let alone America), but Cush would. Why would chapter 18 expound on just three verses of chapter 14? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

Chapters and verses are man-made demarcations, as I'm sure you are aware. The House of Israel was to be "re-located" until the 2nd Coming. Isaiah told of their location before AND after the Assyrians.

Sure it does. “Scattered” is an apt description of theush people. “Peeled” (mowrat) is a perfect descriptor as well since the Cush/Egyptian people were known for their smooth, clean-shaven skin, unlike the Semitic peoples.

To my understanding, "out-spread and polished" refers to the land, not the people. The land of Cush certainly does not fit this description.

The Cush were known as ferocious warriors, and having gained control over Egypt, they were the superpower in the region…until Assyria flexed its muscles, of course.

Verse 2 specifically says "from their beginning".

Don’t have any idea where you are getting that interpretation; it’s certainly not from the Hebrew wording. “Spoiled” (baza) simply means “divided”. The rivers divided the land, meaning there were lots of them. Have you ever checked out a map of Africa where Cush would have been? The region has an abundance of rivers and streams. Rivers definitely “divide” the land.

It's a liturgical term meaning to divide, cleave, cut through. "Baza" only occurs in this 18th Chapter of Isaiah. America is "quartered" by major rivers.

The world in Sennacherib’s day definitely would have listened and taken notice when the Assyrian horns blew and the Assyrian ensign rose. Cush certainlytook notice, because, as prophesied, their doom followed close behind. And bulrush vessels would have been the vessels of choice used by ambassadors from North Africa to navigate up the Mediterranean Sea toward Judah. Much faster than traveling on foot.

Notice "bulrush vessles" is only used this one place in the Bible? Only Moses as a baby used such a "vessel".
I don't believe this is referring to the transportation of the day.

"All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth..."
I think that's a clear prophecy to the future well beyond Sennacherib's day. If you don't, that's your right.

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Nation in Isaiah 18

trident343

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NumberOneSon

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SH89

Sola scriptura

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trident343

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DanJudge

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Zadok7000

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NumberOneSon

The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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SH89

Sola scriptura

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Zadok7000

Awake and Sober

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NumberOneSon

The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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Zadok7000

Awake and Sober

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