Where does the initial beginning of Isaiah 2:2-4 fit?

[DavidPT]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.

 

[dwb001]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

People keep saying that the Millennium is not mentioned anywhere other than Rev 20.
Isaiah sounds like the Millennium kingdom... almost all of Isaiah.
God's kingdom on Earth with an external peoples coming to God's holy mountain... sounds a whole lot like the 1k years of Jesus on Earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

I know you and I have discussed this before, but what's one more time, right? Maybe some others haven't see discussions about this, so I guess it's worth discussing again even if we repeat things we've said before.

We can see that the timing of the passage is during "the last days". So, determining the timing of that passage requires determining the timing of the last days.

To determine that, here are two passages that can help us:

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, this passage indicates at what point the last days had already started, which was on the day of Pentecost. I think it makes sense to see the last days as having started with the death and resurrection of Christ which is when the old covenant was made obsolete and the new covenant was established. We can see that because Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 and says this (the things happening on that day like people speaking in tongues, etc.) is that (the beginning of the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32) which says "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy...".

Okay, this determines when the last days began (basically). When do they end?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This shows that the last days are a time during which scoffers scoff at the idea of Christ coming again and ask "Where is the promise of His coming"?

So, the last days lead up to the coming of Christ after which, obviously, no one will be scoffing about it anymore. So, based on these passages, the last days basically cover the New Testament time period.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well.

But, it's clear to me that all 3 verses apply to the same period of time, which is "the last days". And we know that the last days occur before the second coming of Christ. So, it seems to me that you need to find a way to make verse 4 apply to this present age. And there is a way, if you're open to it.

One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

One thing you should consider here is that Old Testament prophecies are not always meant to be interpreted in a wooden literal fashion as you are doing here. For example, let's look at the prophecy I referenced earlier that Peter quoted in Acts 2:16-21, which is Joel 2:28-32.

Joel 2:28 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

So, if we take his as literally as you take Isaiah 2:4, we would have to conclude that this is talking about God pouring out His Spirit on literally all people. Is that how it should be interpreted? Obviously not, right? It's actually talking about God pouring out His Spirit on all believers, not literally all people. Yet, the prophecy does not spell that out for us.

In Isaiah 2:4, when taken literally, it can give the impression that it's talking about a time when there would be literally no war anymore with no nation going to war with any other nation. Is that what it means? How can it mean that when we consider the timing of the last days which I already established as referring to the New Testament time period up until the second coming of Christ? It can't mean that. So, what can it mean instead? Like Joel 2:28, it can be taken to apply only to believers. Believers have been saved by the Prince of Peace and we love everyone, including even our enemies. So, I believe Isaiah 2:4 is referring to that in a figurative way. If you don't think that's possible, then tell me how it's possible that a reference to all people in Joel 2:28 is not actually referring to all people? Clearly, the context of some verses is not always spelled out for us, so we should not assume that we should take any given verse in a wooden literal way. Especially in a book that undeniably contains a good amount of figurative text like the book of Isaiah does.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not.

No, I can't see that because Jesus said believers will be resurrected at the last day (John 6:40). And He also indicated that unbelievers will be judged at the last day (John 12:48). And we know that scripture indicates that the dead in Christ will all be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23). With that in mind, what basis is there for thinking that the last day isn't a future 24 hour day at which point, once it arrives, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and unbelievers will be judged/condemned? It doesn't mean that the judgment will take 24 hours. It means that the judgment will commence once the last day arrives.

All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.

Again, that the judgment will occur at the last 24 hour day does not mean that the judgment has to be completed within 24 hours. Clearly, that would be impossible. All Jesus was saying there is that the judgment will take place once the last day arrives. It doesn't mean that time can't end once the last day arrives after which the judgment takes place in the realm of eternity. We know from Matthew 25:31-46 that a judgment of all people will take place when Jesus comes with His angels, so that means unbelievers will be judged at that point. That places the timing of the return of Christ on the last day and the fulfillment of John 12:48 at that point and not 1,000+ years later as Premils would suggest.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

People keep saying that the Millennium is not mentioned anywhere other than Rev 20.
Isaiah sounds like the Millennium kingdom... almost all of Isaiah.
God's kingdom on Earth with an external peoples coming to God's holy mountain... sounds a whole lot like the 1k years of Jesus on Earth.

I covered this in my previous post, but I believe what you should consider as it relates to the topic of this thread, which is Isaiah 2:2-4, is that the passage relates directly to "the last days". So, determining the timing of the last days will determine the timing of what is talked about in that passage. The following passages indicate that the last days had already started before the day of Pentecost long ago and go on until the future second coming of Christ, so Isaiah 2:2-4 should be interpreted accordingly.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

 

[dwb001]

I covered this in my previous post, but I believe what you should consider as it relates to the topic of this thread, which is Isaiah 2:2-4, is that the passage relates directly to "the last days". So, determining the timing of the last days will determine the timing of what is talked about in that passage. The following passages indicate that the last days had already started before the day of Pentecost long ago and go on until the future second coming of Christ, so Isaiah 2:2-4 should be interpreted accordingly.

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Like I said... the Millennium.

 

[DavidPT]

When do they end?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This shows that the last days are a time during which scoffers scoff at the idea of Christ coming again and ask "Where is the promise of His coming"?

So, the last days lead up to the coming of Christ after which, obviously, no one will be scoffing about it anymore. So, based on these passages, the last days basically cover the New Testament time period.

In the past whenever you brought up this point, it apparently must have went over my head at the time, because this time around I clearly see the point you are attempting to make here. Assuming there is a millennium following the 2nd coming, and that this too involves the last days, well like you pointed out though, once He returns, no one would still be scoffing about that, obviously.

And if it is during the last days when they are doing that, how can it still be involving the last days once they are no longer doing that, right? Therefore, your point makes good sense to me this time around. Unless I can find a reasonable way around your point, though I don't play chess, but am familiar with what checkmate means, it appears that could be the case here, checkmate.

Edited to add: I just thought of a possible way around your point. In my view, right or wrong, I tend to think that the last days technically began with the birth of Christ. Assuming that scenario, would anyone be scoffing about the promise of His coming at that point? Is not the coming being scoffed about meaning His 2nd coming rather than His first coming?

If yes, that then means per this scenario, though it is already the last days, no one is yet scoffing about His coming. Which then means that the last days involve a period of time when no one is scoffing about His coming, and also involves a period of time when some are scoffing about where is the promise of His coming.

The first thing we need to factor in here, the promise of His coming involving exactly what? Doesn't the verses that follow tell us the coming that is involved, that it involves coming in judgment? That that is what they are scoffing about, that if He's coming in judgment, what exactly is the holdup if true? Meaning from the perspective of those scoffing about the promise of His coming.

If we read a few verses later we learn what is preventing the coming from occurring at just any random unappointed time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Getting back to my initial point, if during the last days there is an era of time that does not involve anyone scoffing about the promise of His coming, then there is an era of time where they are, why can't the same be true after He comes, assuming there is a millennium that follows involving these same last days?

IOW, why does after He comes mean we are no longer in the last days because these scoffers in question are no longer doing that, yet before they even start doing that, it is not meaning we are not in the last days as well, that we are only in the last days when someone is scoffing about the promise of His coming? The point being, one can be in the last days whether they are scoffing about the promise of His coming or not.

 

[DavidPT]

Again, that the judgment will occur at the last 24 hour day does not mean that the judgment has to be completed within 24 hours. Clearly, that would be impossible. All Jesus was saying there is that the judgment will take place once the last day arrives. It doesn't mean that time can't end once the last day arrives after which the judgment takes place in the realm of eternity. We know from Matthew 25:31-46 that a judgment of all people will take place when Jesus comes with His angels, so that means unbelievers will be judged at that point. That places the timing of the return of Christ on the last day and the fulfillment of John 12:48 at that point and not 1,000+ years later as Premils would suggest.

My translation says it occurs in the last day. After the last day, outside of the last day, that couldn't possibly still mean the last day. Jesus says He judges these in the last day. I take that to mean what it plainly says, that He does all of this from start to finish in this same last day in question, not after the last day nor outside of the last day, as in outside of time or something. Therefore, if that verse is involving the great white throne judgment, the last day meant in that verse couldn't possibly be involving 24 hours or less. IMO, you can't get around that by simply reasoning these things as you have chosen to do. The text plainly states He does these things in the last day. What is there to debate then?

 

[RandyPNW]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.

The return of Christ to judge the world takes place, as I understand it, on the "last day." It takes place on the last day of the present age.

And Isa 2 appears to me to be an account of the Millennial Age, after Christ returns. It is, in my opinion, when Christ returns that the mountain of the Lord's house, which involves God's Kingdom, is exalted on earth.

It is a reference point for the beginning of Judea-Christianity, which started with the OT temple worship. It zeroes in on the true God, among the many believed on, who will be exalted over all other religions.

I don't think Israel will be exalted over all other nations, but that the God they worship will be identified as the God who at the time of this prophecy was identified with Jerusalem. Israel and Jerusalem are the OT reference points for the religion that began there, which for us is Christianity. Christianity will be liberated world-wide, and the knowledge of God will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Like I said... the Millennium.

Which, according to the passages I showed, occurs during the New Testament time period since that is when the last days occur.

 

[dwb001]

Which, according to the passages I showed, occurs during the New Testament time period since that is when the last days occur.

I disagree and so would Rev 20 and Isaiah.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the past whenever you brought up this point, it apparently must have went over my head at the time, because this time around I clearly see the point you are attempting to make here.

I didn't change the point I had made before at all, so, yeah, I guess you just didn't understand it before for whatever reason.

Assuming there is a millennium following the 2nd coming, and that this too involves the last days, well like you pointed out though, once He returns, no one would still be scoffing about that, obviously.

And if it is during the last days when they are doing that, how can it still be involving the last days once they are no longer doing that, right? Therefore, your point makes good sense to me this time around. Unless I can find a reasonable way around your point, though I don't play chess, but am familiar with what checkmate means, it appears that could be the case here, checkmate.

I'm just glad that you understand my point, at least. It takes so much effort to get you to understand my points sometimes, regardless of whether you agree with them or not. So, I count this as a win for both of us whether you agree or not.

Edited to add: I just thought of a possible way around your point.

I think this illustrates a problem with the way you approach scripture, at least as it relates to end times. I believe you look at everything with bias. Instead of being objective, you put your Premil glasses on with the intent of proving Amil wrong instead of just accepting whatever the text says and going with it. That's how I see it, anyway. I wish you would try to study all of this with a truly objective approach and see what you discover sometime.

In my view, right or wrong, I tend to think that the last days technically began with the birth of Christ.

That's reasonable. Based on Acts 2:16-21, we know they had started before the day of Pentecost at some point. Whether we believe it started at His birth or at His death and resurrection isn't that important. It's just important to realize that the last days are not just referring to a short amount of time before Christ returns.

Assuming that scenario, would anyone be scoffing about the promise of His coming at that point? Is not the coming being scoffed about meaning His 2nd coming rather than His first coming?

As is sometimes the case, you're being a bit too literal here. You're acting as if the scoffing has to occur throughout the entirety of the last days. It doesn't say that. It just has to occur at some point during the last days and doesn't have to occur starting from the very first of the last days. I see this as you just absolutely going out of your way to find any way of refuting my view on this and that again tells me that you are not looking at all of this objectively. Your goal does not seem to be to find the truth of this matter, but rather is to try to refute Amil any way you can.

If yes, that then means per this scenario, though it is already the last days, no one is yet scoffing about His coming. Which then means that the last days involve a period of time when no one is scoffing about His coming, and also involves a period of time when some are scoffing about where is the promise of His coming.

LOL. I'm sorry, but you are just trying too hard here.

The first thing we need to factor in here, the promise of His coming involving exactly what? Doesn't the verses that follow tell us the coming that is involved, that it involves coming in judgment? That that is what they are scoffing about, that if He's coming in judgment, what exactly is the holdup if true? Meaning from the perspective of those scoffing about the promise of His coming.

If we read a few verses later we learn what is preventing the coming from occurring at just any random unappointed time.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Getting back to my initial point, if during the last days there is an era of time that does not involve anyone scoffing about the promise of His coming, then there is an era of time where they are, why can't the same be true after He comes, assuming there is a millennium that follows involving these same last days?

IOW, why does after He comes mean we are no longer in the last days because these scoffers in question are no longer doing that, yet before they even start doing that, it is not meaning we are not in the last days as well, that we are only in the last days when someone is scoffing about the promise of His coming? The point being, one can be in the last days whether they are scoffing about the promise of His coming or not.

(Sigh). You are going so far out of your way to try to keep your understanding of Isaiah 2:2-4 afloat. I just don't get that.

But, anyway, let's say the last days extend beyond His second coming into a future time that He reigns on the earth for a thousand years. And let's say there's no wars during that time as Isaiah 2:4 would suggest if taken literally to mean no wars are taking place at that point. What do you do with Revelation 20:7-9 then? So much for not learning war ANYMORE. Taking Isaiah 2:4 literally and applying it to anything except the new heavens and new earth when no death will occur (Rev 21:4) can't work. But, I highly doubt you would apply Isaiah 2:4 to the new heavens and new earth when no more death occurs. The only other reasonable option is to not take it literally the way you currently do.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I disagree and so would Rev 20 and Isaiah.

Please don't just tell me you disagree without doing something to back it up. When does scripture indicate that the last days occur? I showed passages which tell us that. Is Isaiah 2:2-4 not referring to the last days? Please address this instead of just saying you disagree. Offer some kind of evidence that the last days cover some other time period besides the New Testament time period if that's what you believe.

 

[dwb001]

Please don't just tell me you disagree without doing something to back it up. When does scripture indicate that the last days occur? I showed passages which tell us that. Is Isaiah 2:2-4 not referring to the last days? Please address this instead of just saying you disagree. Offer some kind of evidence that the last days cover some other time period besides the New Testament time period if that's what you believe.

Isaiah 2:2-4 matches with the Millennial kingdom. God's holy hill above all(Rev 20:4b) and judging the nations(Rev 20:4), no wars(Rev 20:1-3).

And just saying I disagree is still valid.

And if Peter is right about a thousand years being a day(where did Peter get that idea if not from Jesus) then the last 1k years on this Earth would be the last day.

 

[Billy Evmur]

I know you and I have discussed this before, but what's one more time, right? Maybe some others haven't see discussions about this, so I guess it's worth discussing again even if we repeat things we've said before.

We can see that the timing of the passage is during "the last days". So, determining the timing of that passage requires determining the timing of the last days.

To determine that, here are two passages that can help us:

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, this passage indicates at what point the last days had already started, which was on the day of Pentecost. I think it makes sense to see the last days as having started with the death and resurrection of Christ which is when the old covenant was made obsolete and the new covenant was established. We can see that because Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 and says this (the things happening on that day like people speaking in tongues, etc.) is that (the beginning of the fulfillment of Joel 2:28-32) which says "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy...".

Okay, this determines when the last days began (basically). When do they end?

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

This shows that the last days are a time during which scoffers scoff at the idea of Christ coming again and ask "Where is the promise of His coming"?

So, the last days lead up to the coming of Christ after which, obviously, no one will be scoffing about it anymore. So, based on these passages, the last days basically cover the New Testament time period.


But, it's clear to me that all 3 verses apply to the same period of time, which is "the last days". And we know that the last days occur before the second coming of Christ. So, it seems to me that you need to find a way to make verse 4 apply to this present age. And there is a way, if you're open to it.


One thing you should consider here is that Old Testament prophecies are not always meant to be interpreted in a wooden literal fashion as you are doing here. For example, let's look at the prophecy I referenced earlier that Peter quoted in Acts 2:16-21, which is Joel 2:28-32.

Joel 2:28 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

So, if we take his as literally as you take Isaiah 2:4, we would have to conclude that this is talking about God pouring out His Spirit on literally all people. Is that how it should be interpreted? Obviously not, right? It's actually talking about God pouring out His Spirit on all believers, not literally all people. Yet, the prophecy does not spell that out for us.

In Isaiah 2:4, when taken literally, it can give the impression that it's talking about a time when there would be literally no war anymore with no nation going to war with any other nation. Is that what it means? How can it mean that when we consider the timing of the last days which I already established as referring to the New Testament time period up until the second coming of Christ? It can't mean that. So, what can it mean instead? Like Joel 2:28, it can be taken to apply only to believers. Believers have been saved by the Prince of Peace and we love everyone, including even our enemies. So, I believe Isaiah 2:4 is referring to that in a figurative way. If you don't think that's possible, then tell me how it's possible that a reference to all people in Joel 2:28 is not actually referring to all people? Clearly, the context of some verses is not always spelled out for us, so we should not assume that we should take any given verse in a wooden literal way. Especially in a book that undeniably contains a good amount of figurative text like the book of Isaiah does.


No, I can't see that because Jesus said believers will be resurrected at the last day (John 6:40). And He also indicated that unbelievers will be judged at the last day (John 12:48). And we know that scripture indicates that the dead in Christ will all be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29, 1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23). With that in mind, what basis is there for thinking that the last day isn't a future 24 hour day at which point, once it arrives, the dead in Christ will be resurrected and unbelievers will be judged/condemned? It doesn't mean that the judgment will take 24 hours. It means that the judgment will commence once the last day arrives.




Again, that the judgment will occur at the last 24 hour day does not mean that the judgment has to be completed within 24 hours. Clearly, that would be impossible. All Jesus was saying there is that the judgment will take place once the last day arrives. It doesn't mean that time can't end once the last day arrives after which the judgment takes place in the realm of eternity. We know from Matthew 25:31-46 that a judgment of all people will take place when Jesus comes with His angels, so that means unbelievers will be judged at that point. That places the timing of the return of Christ on the last day and the fulfillment of John 12:48 at that point and not 1,000+ years later as Premils would suggest.

I will say that the Jerusalem crowd's belief differed a great deal from Paul's. Peter and co believed the kingdom reign had begun and would be rolled out from Jerusalem with the Jews being the kings and priests as indeed they will be.

Paul had greater revelation and insight. He knew Israel was to be laid aside and that the church was to be planted among the nations until all the Gentiles were brought in.

Peter and co talk about the end coming with a loud bang and fervent heat, only Paul talks the rapture, the rapture for the church is the end. Once the church is raptured THEN will begin the kingdom reign. God will turn once again to Israel. The devil will be bound for the 1, 000 years.

The 1, 000 years end with the loosing of Satan and the final rebellion. After the final victory comes the loud bang and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements.

Both the Jerusalem crowd and Paul are correct ... each in their time.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Isaiah 2:2-4 matches with the Millennial kingdom. God's holy hill above all(Rev 20:4b) and judging the nations(Rev 20:4), no wars(Rev 20:1-3).

And just saying I disagree is still valid.

And if Peter is right about a thousand years being a day(where did Peter get that idea if not from Jesus) then the last 1k years on this Earth would be the last day.

He tells us where he gets it from ... Paul's letters "many things hard to be understood"

 

[dwb001]

He tells us where he gets it from ... Paul's letters "many things hard to be understood"

??????
References please... not vague quotes.

 

[eleos1954]

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.

When Jesus returns judgement has taken place for all for all time. Also on that day the 1st resurrection (of the saved) takes place. Those are taken to heaven for 1,000 years. After the 1,000 years ... the 2nd resurrection takes place (of the lost) then the battle of Gog and Magog takes place . God destroys all the lost/wicked (this is the Great White Throne judgement) He then makes a new heaven and earth.

When Jesus returns the lost are destroyed by the brightness of His coming ... the saved are taken to heaven ... those left on earth (the lost are annihilated .... it is a simultaneous event ... nothing to suggest a 24-hour period. Judgement takes place in heaven BEFORE His return .... and partial execution of that judgement takes place when He returns. All of the lost die twice (2nd death)

Read 2 Thessalonians in it's entirety to get the context.

The last day is when Jesus returns and we do not know when that will be.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Isaiah 2:2-4 matches with the Millennial kingdom. God's holy hill above all(Rev 20:4b) and judging the nations(Rev 20:4), no wars(Rev 20:1-3).

And just saying I disagree is still valid.

And if Peter is right about a thousand years being a day(where did Peter get that idea if not from Jesus) then the last 1k years on this Earth would be the last day.

Do you agree that Isaiah 2:2-4 is about the last days? It clearly is, right? Why is it that you don't want to address the points that I make? When does Acts 2:16-21 indicate about the timing of the last days? How about 2 Peter 3:3-4? Can you please address that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I will say that the Jerusalem crowd's belief differed a great deal from Paul's. Peter and co believed the kingdom reign had begun and would be rolled out from Jerusalem with the Jews being the kings and priests as indeed they will be.

Paul had greater revelation and insight. He knew Israel was to be laid aside and that the church was to be planted among the nations until all the Gentiles were brought in.

Peter and co talk about the end coming with a loud bang and fervent heat, only Paul talks the rapture, the rapture for the church is the end. Once the church is raptured THEN will begin the kingdom reign. God will turn once again to Israel. The devil will be bound for the 1, 000 years.

The 1, 000 years end with the loosing of Satan and the final rebellion. After the final victory comes the loud bang and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements.

Both the Jerusalem crowd and Paul are correct ... each in their time.

I can't make any sense out of anything you're saying here. Paul and Peter did not differ in their beliefs. That is nonsense. They were both inspired by the Holy Spirit who teaches everyone the same things.

 

[dwb001]

Do you agree that Isaiah 2:2-4 is about the last days? It clearly is, right?

It definitely does... I would say it sounds like the Millennium to be specific.

Why is it that you don't want to address the points that I make?

Because I am not an expert on these other passages... but I will try.

When does Acts 2:16-21 indicate about the timing of the last days?

I don't see anything is mentioned about timing. It has events that occur during the last days... but as to the timing I don't see anything specific.

How about 2 Peter 3:3-4? Can you please address that?

Again this would be events that occur during the end times but as to a start time... I don't see it.
But was there something specific you wanted me to comment on. I would be open to specific questions.
General questions like what do you think... are to general.