Michael stands up - Daniel 12:1, Revelation 12:7-9

[grafted branch]

You are a partial preterist, right? You can be a partial preterist and be an Amil at the same time. Most partial preterists are Amils. So, are you really meaning to say that you are Postmil rather than Amil now?

Yes, I’m partial preterist but I differ from Amil in that I don’t think we are currently in the millennium. I think the millennium was an unknown, in length, time period that started after the cross and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem.

I know we already discussed this but in Revelation 20:8 it’s the nations (ethnos) or Gentiles that are deceived, which to me means there was still a distinction being made during Satans little season. Which then leads me to think this took place while the old covenant had not yet vanished.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, I’m partial preterist but I differ from Amil in that I don’t think we are currently in the millennium. I think the millennium was an unknown, in length, time period that started after the cross and ended with the destruction of Jerusalem.

I asked if you consider yourself to be Postmil, but you didn't answer that question. It seems that is the case?

So, in your view a thousand years figuratively represented about 37 years. And you're comfortable with that? It certainly makes no sense to me. Instead, I would think when the term "thousand" is used figuratively, as we agree it is in Revelation 20, it would figuratively represent a long period of time, not a relatively short period of time like 37 years. When used figuratively elsewhere in scripture it is used to represent a large number ("a thousand generations", "a thousand hills", etc.).

Do you believe Jesus's future return, which you believe in as a partial preterist, is referenced at all in the book of Revelation? Or at least anything related to what will happen on the day He returns?

I know we already discussed this but in Revelation 20:8 it’s the nations (ethnos) or Gentiles that are deceived, which to me means there was still a distinction being made during Satans little season. Which then leads me to think this took place while the old covenant had not yet vanished.

The Greek term is "ethnos", but I don't believe it is being used in the sense of non-Jews/Gentiles. I believe it is used to refer to the heathen (that is one definition for ethnos) or unbelievers in the world who oppose the church. Can you elaborate on how exactly you interpret Revelation 20:7-9? Who exactly do you believe were the "ethnos" from around the world who surrounded "the camp of the saints"? How exactly did fire come down on them from heaven to devour them?

 

[grafted branch]

I asked if you consider yourself to be Postmil, but you didn't answer that question. It seems that is the case?

I don’t really consider myself postmil in that I don’t think the world is becoming increasingly more in line with Christian ethics. I am postmil in regard to Christ returning after the millennium but Amil also believe this so I agree on that.

Do you believe Jesus's future return, which you believe in as a partial preterist, is referenced at all in the book of Revelation? Or at least anything related to what will happen on the day He returns?

I think there was a type of coming, meaning coming in judgment upon Jerusalem but not the final coming of Christ. I think the great white throne is still future to us, although I think it takes place outside of time. I also think the NHNE is a current spiritual reality but not yet a physical reality.

Can you elaborate on how exactly you interpret Revelation 20:7-9? Who exactly do you believe were the "ethnos" from around the world who surrounded "the camp of the saints"? How exactly did fire come down on them from heaven to devour them?

I think based on Daniel that Satan had the “right” to destroy Jerusalem just after the cross. Satan was bound from deceiving the nations to commit this act. Once he was released he used the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem which is depicted as fire coming down from heaven and devouring them, devouring the camp of the saints. Jerusalem was literally burned with fire.

 

[AYM]

I too am still studying these things, when I first started on this forum I was Amil because that’s what I first learned from a radio program some years ago. I’m now preterist after looking at the different views, thinking about it, and asking questions. I know some of the folks on this forum have been in church all their lives, are pastors, and/or have written books, so there is a lot of wisdom here. I’m sure they chuckle sometimes at how I work through some of these things but I personally think the preterist view has the least problems.




I certainly agree that Christians have endured tribulation through out the world but I’m personally not so sure that’s what’s being referred to in Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19. Someone could argue that great tribulation happened in the Noah flood and greater tribulation than that has to occur to qualify as “such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be”.

I’ve seen an argument made for the great tribulation meaning the spiritual blindness in part that happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in (Romans 11:25). The argument being that no greater tribulation can occur than spiritual blindness, physical tribulation may result in death but spiritual blindness results eternal damnation, the greatest tribulation of all.

From what I’ve seen so far, I think the great tribulation being spiritual blindness seems to be the best fit, although I’m not 100% sure. As for Revelation 1:9 and John being a companion in the tribulation, I would say it’s not entirely clear if he’s referring to great tribulation or if he’s just equating his time at Patmos to the tribulation that was happening to the seven churches in chapters 2-3 at that time.

To that - I'd say that tribulation (or again, affliction) is something that affects believers. For unbelievers, it's wrath:

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

I do think you make a solid point about John in Rev 1 vs what we see in 2-3, though I believe it's all part of the Tribulation.

There is a lot of wisdom here. I'm looking forward to being sharpened by the iron on this forum, and hope some of the insights others have can help me to gain further understanding.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, I believe those who came out of Sheol after the cross are the ones asking how long till their blood is avenged. In Matthew 23:35 it says that upon you(Jerusalem) comes all the righteous blood shed. They are asking how long till that event.

They and the whole NT body since then. All the redeemed will still wait a short while after the Second Coming.

 

[grafted branch]

They and the whole NT body since then. All the redeemed will still wait a short while after the Second Coming.

You still have the problem of why people are going to ask God a question that they already know, with absolute certainty, what the answer is.

 

[Timtofly]

You still have the problem of why people are going to ask God a question that they already know, with absolute certainty, what the answer is.

That sounds like your problem.

 

[grafted branch]

That sounds like your problem.

Why would it be my problem? I think those who ask how long, asked that question before the book of Revelation was written.

If you can’t explain why people, who already know the answer to the question, have to ask it in the first place, then that’s on you.

 

[Timtofly]

Why would it be my problem? I think those who ask how long, asked that question before the book of Revelation was written.

If you can’t explain why people, who already know the answer to the question, have to ask it in the first place, then that’s on you.

Are you saying they knew it would happen 2,000 years, 5 days, and 12 hours from when they asked?

At what point in the last 1900 years have people known the answer and "a little while" was the exact answer?

I said they could be asking the question frequently. So I have no problem when the answer is "a little while", because the question is timeless. The answer when given will have an exact up to the minute relevance.

According to you the answer has no relevance. That is your problem. The answer has not been given. The question is not a one time use question. It was relevant in the 2nd century and every century since then. Every generation has had a reason to seek vengeance.

 

[grafted branch]

Are you saying they knew it would happen 2,000 years, 5 days, and 12 hours from when they asked?

No, I’m saying they were told exactly what Revelation 6:11 says they were told.

At what point in the last 1900 years have people known the answer and "a little while" was the exact answer?

At the point when they read Revelation 6.

I said they could be asking the question frequently. So I have no problem when the answer is "a little while", because the question is timeless. The answer when given will have an exact up to the minute relevance.

If the answer to the question will have an exact up to the minute relevance then are you expecting a different answer than the one given in Revelation 6? If not then why ask the question in the first place? If you think there will be a different answer then what John saw when the fifth seal was opened was not that future event, else John was not accurate in writing down what he saw and heard.

According to you the answer has no relevance. That is your problem. The answer has not been given. The question is not a one time use question.

That’s not true, it was relevant to those who asked the question. The only way it would be irrelevant is if they already knew the answer, which is what you’re trying to argue.

Every generation has had a reason to seek vengeance.

Do you think Stephen asked for vengeance after he asked the Lord not to lay this sin to their charge in Acts 7:60? Do you think once Stephen died he did a complete 180 and asked for vengeance? And what about a missionary like Jim Elliot, do you think he’s in heaven asking for vengeance on the natives that killed him?

Maybe, just maybe, Christians who are under the new covenant don’t seek vengeance, they seek forgiveness.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I’m saying they were told exactly what Revelation 6:11 says they were told.


At the point when they read Revelation 6.



If the answer to the question will have an exact up to the minute relevance then are you expecting a different answer than the one given in Revelation 6? If not then why ask the question in the first place? If you think there will be a different answer then what John saw when the fifth seal was opened was not that future event, else John was not accurate in writing down what he saw and heard.


That’s not true, it was relevant to those who asked the question. The only way it would be irrelevant is if they already knew the answer, which is what you’re trying to argue.


Do you think Stephen asked for vengeance after he asked the Lord not to lay this sin to their charge in Acts 7:60? Do you think once Stephen died he did a complete 180 and asked for vengeance? And what about a missionary like Jim Elliot, do you think he’s in heaven asking for vengeance on the natives that killed him?

Maybe, just maybe, Christians who are under the new covenant don’t seek vengeance, they seek forgiveness.

The question is not relevant to the timing of the answer. That is your point.


The answer is relevant to the action that takes place at the 5th Seal. The 5th Seal is not them asking the question. That question is relevant to all, over the last 1900 years.

The action of the 5th Seal is the putting on of white robes. That is when the answer is relevant. We know the answer, sure. We also know that when the 5th Seal is opened the entire church body is glorified.

That is the only point of the 5th Seal, not the answer nor the question. Not even their tribulation of which they seek vengeance. All that is related to life on earth. Even waiting a little while is for events to finish up on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Maybe, just maybe, Christians who are under the new covenant don’t seek vengeance, they seek forgiveness.

I never stated it was personal. It was all about the wickedness of sin and the tribulation that is caused by sin.

 

[Peacemaker1]

michael stands up but who stops clinging to those with all signs ang lying wonders with flatteries....




Daniel 11:34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.



Jude 1:16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

2 Peter 2:18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.



2 Thessalonians 29 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


Revelation 17:8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.