Where does the initial beginning of Isaiah 2:2-4 fit?

Spiritual Jew

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It definitely does... I would say it sounds like the Millennium to be specific.
Okay, so you agree that Isaiah 2:2-4 involves the last days. Glad to clear that up.

Because I am not an expert on these other passages... but I will try.
That's fine.

I don't see anything is mentioned about timing. It has events that occur during the last days... but as to the timing I don't see anything specific.
You don't know what the timing is of Acts 2:16-21? If you read starting at the beginning of Acts 2 you can see that the timing is the day of Pentecost that occurred long ago. Would you agree? Peter was indicating that what was happening on that day was the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophecy from Joel 2:28-32 (he quoted that) which relates to the last days. So, that indicates that the last days had begun already back then before the day of Pentecost.

Again this would be events that occur during the end times but as to a start time... I don't see it.
I wasn't intending to say anything about the start time of the last days by referencing 2 Peter 3:3-4. My point in bringing that up is to show that the last days lead up to the second coming of Christ because it talks about people scoffing at the promise of His coming during the last days.

But was there something specific you wanted me to comment on. I would be open to specific questions.
General questions like what do you think... are to general.
I would appreciate if you respond to what I said above and let me know if you agree with my understanding of the timing of the last days as is indicated in passages like Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:3-4.

What I think you should consider is that the text in Isaiah 2:2-4 is not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively instead. I don't see any other way to understand it while keeping in mind that the last days began long ago already and lead up to the future second coming of Christ.
 
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dwb001

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Okay, so you agree that Isaiah 2:2-4 involves the last days. Glad to clear that up.
I never disputed that.
That's fine.


You don't know what the timing is of Acts 2:16-21? If you read starting at the beginning of Acts 2 you can see that the timing is the day of Pentecost that occurred long ago. Would you agree? Peter was indicating that what was happening on that day was the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophecy from Joel 2:28-32 (he quoted that) which relates to the last days. So, that indicates that the last days had begun already back then before the day of Pentecost.
Whoa. You gave a specific question about a particular reference then change the reference to "earlier" in the chapter. Please be consistent.

And you description of timing is different than most.

I wasn't intending to say anything about the start time of the last days by referencing 2 Peter 3:3-4. My point in bringing that up is to show that the last days lead up to the second coming of Christ because it talks about people scoffing at the promise of His coming during the last days.
and yet you asked about the timing. Now you say that isn't what you were asking about.
I would appreciate if you respond to what I said above and let me know if you agree with my understanding of the timing of the last days as is indicated in passages like Acts 2:16-21 and 2 Peter 3:3-4.
No. I did that and then you changed the questions. That is not the way I roll.
What I think you should consider is that the text in Isaiah 2:2-4 is not meant to be taken literally, but figuratively instead. I don't see any other way to understand it while keeping in mind that the last days began long ago already and lead up to the future second coming of Christ.
Last days... 1 day = 1k years... so last days started 2 days ago. Even if everything else breaks your way.

Last days as commonly understood are still ahead of us.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.
The first four verses are about the " God" of Jacob aka Israel. He speaks of His promise to both the remnant Jew and the Gentile. He speaks of His Kingdom the " New Jerusalem" which will last forever not just 1000 years. The next 18 verses are specifically directed to the " house of Jacob " aka Israel who are not of the remnant. Those who reject the God of Jacob by their evil ways and those who do not walk in the" light" aka Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Blessings.
 
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Billy Evmur

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I can't make any sense out of anything you're saying here. Paul and Peter did not differ in their beliefs. That is nonsense. They were both inspired by the Holy Spirit who teaches everyone the same things.
both Peter and co and Paul were correct ... in their own time

Do you believe in the rapture of the church?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Whoa. You gave a specific question about a particular reference then change the reference to "earlier" in the chapter. Please be consistent.

And you description of timing is different than most.
I don't know what you're talking about. Do you not think that Peter, in Acts 2:16-21, was applying the prophecy that he quoted from Joel 2:28-32 regarding the last days to what was happening on the day of Pentecost? I'm not saying he was implying that the last days only applied to that time, but that the last days had already started at that point.

and yet you asked about the timing. Now you say that isn't what you were asking about.

No. I did that and then you changed the questions. That is not the way I roll.

Last days... 1 day = 1k years... so last days started 2 days ago. Even if everything else breaks your way.

Last days as commonly understood are still ahead of us.
I can't make any sense out of anything you say. We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Billy Evmur

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What does that mean? Do you think Peter was writing about a different day of the Lord than Paul was?


Of course. But, I don't believe it will be pre-trib.
neither do I believe in a pre-trib but the doctrine of the Rapture runs a coach and horses through the Jewish and post apostolic view of the last days. For the church the Rapture is the last day on earth, no loud bangs, no fervent heat to the melting away of the elements, Paul speaks rather about the creation being SET FREE from it's bondage to decay.

After the Rap comes the 1, 000 years and the last day comes at the end of it, it will come with a loud bang, just as the Jews expected.

So both understandings are correct ... in their time. The Jerusalem crowd thought the Messianic age had begun.
 
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sparow

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Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.
Isaiah 2.2-4 seems to me to be an overview of the last 2000 years, but most people are not included in it.
 
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Billy Evmur

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Isaiah 2.2-4 seems to me to be an overview of the last 2000 years, but most people are not included in it.
overview as in opposite to what has happened in the last 2, 000 years.

That's what makes Amillennialism a blown doctrine.
 
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Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.

Concerning John 12:48 and the last day, there is no real judgement on the last day. But it says ... .

The process is the judgement. The events leading up to the last day cause everybody to self-select their own judgement. You get to pick your own judgement. Matthew 25 explains:

1. Most Christians are lazy servants who get caught up in the harvests - the wars. They choose death.
2. The fake Jesus (false prophet) fools 50% of surviving Christians. They take the mark and become goats.
3. A very tiny percentage of Christians will hide out in the wilderness. They become sheep.

When the real Jesus comes to do his "judgement," the real judgement has already happened.
 
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Jamdoc

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Isaiah 2 has to be millennial reign as if the new covenant is completed there will be no more telling neighbors to know the Lord as everyone will know Him according to Jeremiah 31. Yes I know the new covenant is here now, but it is not consummated until the 2nd coming at the very least, if not the GWT of judgement.

and Isaiah 2 involves people still learning about the Lord that they didn't know before, and the swords into ploughshares well, the new Earth will have never had war. Will there ever be a weapon on the New Earth?
and it certainly won't take place in this age.
 
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Zao is life

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Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Somewhere in this age prior to the 2nd coming in the end of this age? Or in the beginning of the next age, meaning after Christ has returned in the end of this age?

No matter how one looks at it, it's involving the millennium, regardless. If meaning in this age it would obviously be paralleling Amil's proposed millennium. If meaning in the next age it would obviously be paralleling Premil's proposed millennium.

The more I think about it, I can see verse 2 and 3 maybe fitting this age prior to the 2nd coming, yet, still can't see verse 4 applying to this present age as well. One reason why, and I have brought this up in the past, if verse 4 is applicable to this present age, it appears to be contradicting Matthew 24:7 in that case.

Matthew 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


You then have Isiah 2:4 stating this---nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more--while Matthew 24:7 is stating the polar opposite---For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

The solution according to some Amils, is not that Matthew 24:7 is involving one age and that Isaiah 2:4 is involving an entirely different age, but that Isaiah 2:4 should be taken in a spiritual sense, not a literal sense. Yet, Isaiah 2:4 is involving more than one nation. What nations do Amils propose, that shall not lift up sword against what other nation/s, neither shall they learn war any more, spiritually?

In order for their interpretation to make any kind of sense, they need to reasonably show what nations in particular this part is involving---nation shall not lift up sword--and what nations in particular this part is involving---nation.

IOW, nation(equals what nations in particular?) shall not lift up sword against nation(equals what nations in particular?). Keeping in mind, once one converts to Christianity, they become part of one nation, a holy nation.

Could the last days and last day be the solution, meaning in this manner? The last days began in the first century and involve the last day, a period of time consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement? IOW, the last day of this age is the beginning of the last day, consisting of the millennium, satan's little season, and then the great white throne judgement. Maybe a solution, maybe not. All I know is, that it makes zero sense if the following is perhaps involving the great white throne judgment, that that judgment is only involving 24 hours or less.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day

The text does not say this judgment happens after the last day nor outside of time, either. It clearly says it happens at the last day. I see that being a major problem if the last day meant here, it is meaning 24 hours or less. As if it is reasonable, that if verse 48 is involving the great white throne judgement, that that judgment only involves 24 hours or less.
The last days

-- God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, -- Hebrews 1:1.

The LORD's house

-- Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him. God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.

The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things. Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you. -- John 4:21-26.

The mountain of the LORD's house. Exalted above the hills.

-- But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. -- Hebrews 12:22-25.

And all nations shall flow into it.

-- whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? -- Romans 9:24
-- (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist. -- Romans 4:17
-- And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit. -- Ephesians 2:17-22

Isaiah 2:2-5

-- And it shall be, in the last days the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it. And many people shall go and say, Come, and let us go to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob.

And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the LORD. -- Isaiah 2:2-5

Judging among the nations

-- And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as all of you have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, all of you have done it unto me.

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as all of you did it not to one of the least of these, all of you did it not to me. -- Extract from Matthew 25:31-46

He teaches us His ways

-- God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds, -- Hebrews 1:1.

-- And He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths. For out of Zion shall go out the Law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. -- Isaiah 2:3
 
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parousia70

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I see that making sense.
Hard to disagree with apostolic confirmation of a prophesy being fulfilled.
Maybe the better questions would be, when do those last days in question end? Why do they end? What causes them to end?
I would suggest the better question would be 'What are they the last days of?" - Until we establish the correct the answer to that, we can't hope to correctly ascertain the when, why or by what cause.
 
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