The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[trophy33]

There is no scripture anywhere to keep winter, it never says that, it says pray for your flight not be in winter or the Sabbath. The Sabbath we are to keep holy according to God Exo 20:6

Exo 20:6 was not written to us, therefore there is no "we" which you try to smuggle into the text

 

[SabbathBlessings]

2 Cor 3:3 speaks of the Corinthians being a letter written on Paul's heart, written not with ink, but by the Holy Spirit. It's not talking about the law being written on our hearts (though the law is written on our hearts).

2 Cor 3:3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

The tablets of stone not the law? Now tablets of the flesh which is the heart? Where God placed His law Heb 8:10 not about God's law???


OK, we have a much different understanding on God's Word.

 

[fhansen]

The church, in the east and in the west from the beginning, gave priority to the Lord's Day, to Sunday, the day of His resurrection, as the main day to gather, worship, read Scripture and celebrate the Lord's Supper, acknowledging and worshipping God, not as some act of authoritarian totalitarianism but simply as what that small often persecuted church did. That didn't happen in a vacuum; they were aware of the law and they were not antinomian; that's just how they received it. To this day those churches, the church, teaches the necessity of upholding the law but in a new way now, according to a new covenant that can accomplish in us the obedience that the old could not, by the Spirit, under grace, connected to the Vine, now in communion with God as man was and is meant to be. We don't need to apologize for or change the Christian way of doing things. The sabbath commitment is still held and kept, but in a new way on a new day, the day of the beginning of a new world order.

 

[trophy33]

To this day those churches, the church, teaches the necessity of upholding the law but in a new way now,

It would be good for those churches to notice that Gentiles have nothing to do with the Law. Paul is sometimes addressing the Jewish and sometimes the Gentile Christians in his letters and if readers do not know this context, they may mix everything together into an inconsistent goulash.

 

[The Liturgist]

The Catholic Church recognizes the Sabbath is Saturday. Aside from some hundred year old article in some random diocesan newspaper by some random Catholic priest Catholics have not said the Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday.

Indeed, you are quite right and yet sadly I doubt those who attack your church will take notice.

 

[The Liturgist]

while the rest of the apostles to Jews.

St. Thomas, St. Bartholomew and St. Andrew spread the Gospel to gentiles as well as Jews, and were all martyred for it, St. Thomas in Kerala in 57 AD.

 

[trophy33]

St. Thomas, St. Bartholomew and St. Andrew spread the Gospel to gentiles as well as Jews, and were all martyred for it, St. Thomas in Kerala in 57 AD.

The sources about the apostles outside of the biblical writings are not too reliable. Guesswork or "somebody said that somebody said that...".

 

[The Liturgist]

The sources about the apostles outside of the biblical writings are not too reliable. Guesswork or "somebody said that somebody said that...".

It is well established that St. Thomas the Apostle was martyred in Kerala in 57 AD, by the Christians who have lived there since that time, who are descended from the Kochin Jews and the gentiles.

While it is true that what happened to some of the Apostles is not well established, in the cases I cited, it is well established, and in the case of St. Thomas, we know more about his movements than about those of St. Peter.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How do you know what I do? Only God is all knowing, not strangers on the internet.

Because we’ve had this discussion more times than I can count and I’ve pointed this out to you over and over and over and never once did you correct me by saying that you do keep the entire Mosaic law just like you didn’t in this discussion. So now you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing when you know what I said is true.

Well, let’s start with the Ten Commandments- they were never the 10 suggestions or optional choice. So who is picking and choosing? What others laws that Jesus taught and kept am I not keeping, please post the scripture and why don't you consider asking if I keep instead of telling me what I keep or not keep since you do not know me . So it’s a bit of a strange accusation to claim you know what I do or don't do. Only God knows what we all do, nothing we can hide from Him Ecc 12:13-14

If I have falsely accused you I sincerely apologize, so let me ask you, do you keep the entire Mosaic law that Jesus kept? If not, why even make this argument if you know what I said is true?

Where did Jesus once sacrifice animals? Verse please.

Where does it say that He didn’t? Not all animal sacrifices were sin offerings. Some were required for keeping certain sabbaths and some were just offerings to The Lord.

Where did Jesus once sacrifice animals? Verse please.

According to Jesus to abide in Him, we are to keep the commandments, following in His example it doesn't say the entire Mosaic law. Why would anyone sacrifice an animal when Jesus is our Sacrifice Lamb? This would negate His great sacrifice.

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
1 John 2:6 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked

You seem to be promoting not to follow Jesus.

Thats a choice one can make, but not a good one. John 15:6 John 10:27 Rev 14:4

Notice the difference between “My commandments” and “My Father’s commandments”. The way it’s worded implies a difference, they’re not the same. If they were the same commandments He wouldn’t have referred to them as His commandments, He would’ve referred to them as His Father’s commandments both times. Jesus never once commanded anyone to keep the sabbath along with many other Mosaic commandments.

I seem to be promoting not following Jesus? No, not hardly. I’m promoting following Christ’s teachings, not following His example of keeping the entire Mosaic law.

 

[fhansen]

It would be good for those churches to notice that Gentiles have nothing to do with the Law. Paul is sometimes addressing the Jewish and sometimes the Gentile Christians in his letters and if readers do not know this context, they may mix everything together into an inconsistent goulash.

All humans have everything to do with the law; we were not created to be sinners. The goulash and confusion was introduced by the Reformers who failed to see the consistency in Paul's and other's writings. often seeking to find "work-arounds" so they could justify a novel theology. The new covenant is not about a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, to be who he was created to be, but as the means to accomplish that very thing, in communion with God which the the first and most basic way that man is meant to be. Adam had compromised that relationship-and sin soon flourished. The law was only given to show us how wrong we are in our sin, to teach and convict us of our disobedience but without empowering us to actually obey. Only God can do that so we must get right with Him, established by faith, before anything else can be made right. That's why Jesus came. Meanwhile the law nonetheless shines a true light about man and how he should, can, and must be.

We're here to learn this lesson, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

An interesting related statement from Augustine's "On the Spirit and the Letter":
"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled."

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are misrepresenting the argument, if you understand it at all.

Jesus kept the Sabbath *while the Law was still in effect. *
God kept a *different Sabbath, * the Sabbath of Creation.
The Jews kept a Sabbath Law specifically tied to the covenant God made with Israel through Moses.
The Apostles kept the Sabbath only out of deference to the culture--not as a matter of legal obedience to the covenant of Law.

You are being disingenuous if you understand these things. But if you don't understand the argument, why don't you try to actually understand it--understand it in a way in which you could argue it for yourself? After all, a good debater should be able to debate both sides of an issue, regardless of his or her personal conviction.

As far as God keeping the sabbath it’s only mentioned that He rested once on the 7th day, not every 7th day. I wouldn’t say that God kept the sabbath, I’d say that He rested once the 7th day after creation and nobody until Mt Sinai observed the sabbath. There’s no record of anyone keeping the sabbath before Sinai on a weekly basis.

 

[trophy33]

It is well established that St. Thomas the Apostle was martyred in Kerala in 57 AD, by the Christians who have lived there since that time, who are descended from the Kochin Jews and the gentiles.

How is it well established?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wow, so before you claimed you know what I do, despite being strangers, now you claim you know what I think. Thats some big shoes to fill because according to scripture only God is all-knowing and I hope thats not your claim. So lets just stick with the Scripture instead of the personal attacks.

It’s called deductive reasoning based on our countless discussions on this very subject. As I stated we’ve had this discussion about you not keeping the entire mosaic law literally for years now and you’ve never once corrected my by saying that you do keep it. So logic implies that if you did keep the entire Mosaic law, you would’ve corrected me years ago. Furthermore the fact that you still haven’t just come right out and specifically stated that you do in fact keep the Mosaic law continues to serve as evidence that you’re just arguing about me not knowing something about you that you know is true that you still refuse to admit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wow, so before you claimed you know what I do, despite being strangers, now you claim you know what I think. Thats some big shoes to fill because according to scripture only God is all-knowing and I hope thats not your claim. So lets just stick with the Scripture instead of the personal attacks.

I was quoting the Ten Commandments and you replied with Galatians, so me quoting Jesus from the Ten Commandments and Paul is not twisting of anything. The law that bewitched the Galatians was not from the Ten Commandments. As if Paul is going to claim obeying God's law that God personally wrote that the first commandments starts with only worshiping Him would bewitch them, only to say in the same letter that if they break laws from this same unit, they would not inherit God's Kingdom.

Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments. Circumcision was never a means before hearing the gospel, or means to salvation that all one would have to do is cut off the skin of their penis and would be saved. Basically, saving themselves, no need for the blood of Jesus Christ. This is what Paul was correcting Gal 2:3 Acts 15:1

Nevertheless circumcision was IN FACT A COMMANDMENT OF GOD TO ENTER INTO HIS COVENANT.

 

[trophy33]

All humans have everything to do with the law; we were not created to be sinners. The goulash and confusion was introduced by the Reformers who failed to see the consistency in Paul's and other's writings. often seeking to find "work-arounds" so they could justify a novel theology. The new covenant is not about a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, to be who he was created to be, but as the means to accomplish that very thing, in communion with God which the the first and most basic way that man is meant to be. Adam had compromised that relationship-and sin soon flourished. The law was only given to show us how wrong we are in our sin, to teach and convict us of our disobedience but without empowering us to actually obey. Only God can do that so we must get right with Him, established by faith, before anything else can be made right. That's why Jesus came. Meanwhile the law nonetheless shines a true light about man and how he should, can, and must be.

We're here to learn this lesson, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

An interesting related statement from Augustine's "On the Spirit and the Letter":
"The law was given that grace might be sought; and grace was given that the law might be fulfilled."

It is not very complex, really. Luke wrote down the decision of the Jerusalem council regarding Gentiles and Paul confirmed it in his letters. Gentiles have always been outside of the Mosaic Law. We do not need to do anything with it. All the problems "what to do with the Law" was the problem of the Christians from Jews.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

Of course, God's Eternal Law was not nailed to the Cross! But the Law of Moses was, in fact, nailed to the Cross because Jesus himself was dying *under the Law. *

He was dying, therefore, under very specific conditions, in order to free Israel from a debt they could not pay under the Law of Moses. All of their sacrifices and offerings fell short of providing relief from their Sin Debt and could never result in Eternal Life.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses--he did not come to destroy it. But he did come to end it by providing, in its place, his own eternal atonement.

While Israel remained under the Law, which is when Jesus said this, they were, of course, still required to follow the Law. But Jesus made it clear that the righteousness of the Pharisees would be insufficient, as a Law-based righteousness, to lead to eternal righteousness.

Something coming from himself would have to exceed it, which is what he provided through his resurrection and through his deliverance from the system of Law that never fully atoned for them. Thus, Jesus ended the Law by fulfilling what it had meant to portend, namely a greater righteousness that leads to final salvation.

Mat 5.17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

All of this was fulfilled at the Cross, which ended the system of Law, or the righteousness of the Pharisees. The entire realm of Creation was focused upon the necessity of Man's redemption at the Cross, and could never complete its epoch unless Christ died for God's creature, Man.

When Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled,"
He made it clear that His coming was not to abolish God’s law but to fulfill its purpose. The word "fulfill" means to bring to its full meaning to complete what was foretold and foreshadowed. (see Jesus magnified the law).

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Prophets​

The prophecies concerning the Messiah’s coming, His suffering, and His role as the Lamb of God were fulfilled in Him. He brought to an end the waiting for the Messiah by being the one foretold. Luke 24:44 confirms this when Jesus said, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." His life, death, and resurrection completed these prophetic words.

However, Jesus did not yet fulfill all prophecies about Him. There are still important things He must accomplish in the future:

1. His Second Coming – Jesus promised He would return in glory (Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).
2. The Resurrection of the Righteous and Judgment – Jesus will raise the dead and judge all nations (John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46).
3. The Establishment of God’s Kingdom on Earth – The full reign of Christ, where righteousness will cover the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Isaiah 11:1-9).
4. The Final Defeat of Sin and Death – Satan will be cast into the lake of fire, and death itself will be no more (Revelation 20:10, Revelation 21:4).

Since not everything has been fulfilled, it would be incorrect to say that the Law has completely passed away. Jesus Himself said, "Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18). Heaven and earth still exist, and His work is not yet finished.

Jesus and the Fulfillment of the Law​

The law included moral, ceremonial, and civil commands. Jesus did not remove the moral principles of the law (like love, truth, justice, and holiness), but He brought the law to its intended goal—leading people to righteousness through faith in Him. He summarized God's commandments in Matthew 22:37-40:

"'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

This shows that Jesus upheld the heart of the law—love and obedience to God—not just external rule-keeping.

​

 

[The Liturgist]

How is it well established?

Before I answer that, to ensure I provide a meaningful answer, and also to determine whether I can provide it in this thread or must post it in another forum, what is your present level of knowledge concerning the history of Judaism and Christianity in India?

 

[The Liturgist]

As far as God keeping the sabbath it’s only mentioned that He rested once on the 7th day

Twice. The second time was in the Tomb after His crucifixion, unless, as is possible, Genesis 1 is purely Christological. Certainly it is a Christological prophecy, since God did remake humanity into His image through His passion on the Cross, on the sixth day, before resting on the Seventh, and rising on the first (“Let there be light”).

 

[trophy33]

Before I answer that, to ensure I provide a meaningful answer, and also to determine whether I can provide it in this thread or must post it in another forum, what is your present level of knowledge concerning the history of Judaism and Christianity in India?

I know that there are some old Jewish and Christian communities in India. And that there is no contemporary written evidence from the 1st century confirming Thomas's visit to India. The earliest written account, the "Acts of Thomas," dates back to the early 3rd century. Some people believe the tradition of the Indian Christian community, some historians are on the other hand critical and think it is a legend originated in various later influences.

That is why I ask how is it established and not just a tradition.

 

[The Liturgist]

He made it clear that His coming was not to abolish God’s law but to fulfill its purpose.

That part is not disputed. But it concerns me that you seem to be referring to Jesus and to God as though the two are separate. I hope that is not your belief.