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BNR32FAN

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Actually no. According to Jesus and Paul they were the ones not keeping God's commandments but obeying their own rules instead, so you have it backward.

Case in point

Mat 15:1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’


Romans 2: 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
It’s amazing that you pull this claim out of thin air then post passages to support it that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Galatians. Were the Galatians worried about washing their hands before they ate? Is that what Paul rebuked them for? Was Jesus rebuking the Galatians in Matthew 15? Was the commandment for circumcision man’s commandment or God’s commandment. See you don’t even care about the discussion, or what the scriptures actually teach. All you care about is how can I twist it to make it say what I want it to.
 
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BNR32FAN

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God never told us to follow the crowd, He told us to follow Him. Jesus kept the Sabbath, God kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, they are the minority, but who we are to follow. Our rules are anything we replace with what God commanded. As far as I can tell, the Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11 written by God Himself.
Jesus kept the entire Mosaic law and Paul hadn’t written Colossians or Romans during Christ’s ministry. Circumcision was still in effect during Christ’s ministry, since offerings were still in effect during His ministry, obviously there was a huge change in the covenant after His crucifixion.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Because in Jerusalem, the gates of the city were shut on Sabbaths. It was just an obstacle to escape, similar to winter. As we do not keep winters, we also do not keep Sabbaths.

You conveniently left the winter part out. I noticed a pattern that if a verse does not support your idea, you just refer to the text freely instead of quoting.
Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

It doesn't say anything about "keep" winter so not sure where that came from
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It’s amazing that you pull this claim out of thin air then post passages to support it that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Galatians. Were the Galatians worried about washing their hands before they ate? Is that what Paul rebuked them for? Was Jesus rebuking the Galatians in Matthew 15? Was the commandment for circumcision man’s commandment or God’s commandment. See you don’t even care about the discussion, or what the scriptures actually teach. All you care about is how can I twist it to make it say what I want it to.
Wow, so before you claimed you know what I do, despite being strangers, now you claim you know what I think. Thats some big shoes to fill because according to scripture only God is all-knowing and I hope thats not your claim. So lets just stick with the Scripture instead of the personal attacks.

I was quoting the Ten Commandments and you replied with Galatians, so me quoting Jesus from the Ten Commandments and Paul is not twisting of anything. The law that bewitched the Galatians was not from the Ten Commandments. As if Paul is going to claim obeying God's law that God personally wrote that the first commandments starts with only worshiping Him would bewitch them, only to say in the same letter that if they break laws from this same unit, they would not inherit God's Kingdom.

Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments. Circumcision was never a means before hearing the gospel, or means to salvation that all one would have to do is cut off the skin of their penis and would be saved. Basically, saving themselves, no need for the blood of Jesus Christ. This is what Paul was correcting Gal 2:3 Acts 15:1
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Of course he is.

-CryptoLutheran
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

notice the plural form in sabbaths referring to the many different sabbaths
Since the fourth commandment about keeping the sabbath is part of the 10 commandments that ARE the covenant, it is to be followed.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths

notice the plural form in sabbaths referring to the many different sabbaths
Since the fourth commandment about keeping the sabbath is part of the 10 commandments that ARE the covenant, it is to be followed.
Plus no one ever quotes the context of this passage for some reason

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

God blessed, sanctified and made holy the Sabbath day, not the definition of contrary or against, a sign He is our God Eze 20:20, He is the Creator of all things, the God of the Bible Exo 20:11 and a sign of our sanctification Eze 20:12 so basically when one is trying to use this as the weekly Sabbath is essentially saying God was against man from Creation, it's really a sad teaching.

Plus Jesus in His own Words told His faithful to pray for 40 years after the Cross that their flight would not be on the Sabbath so obviously its not about the Sabbath commandment God's wrote and is part of His personal Testimony which the entire Bible is about . The testimony of Jesus Christ, but sad so many disregard His own personal Testimony written by God Himself Exo 31:18
 
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BNR32FAN

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But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The GLORY of his face because Moses was in the presence of GOD and as Moses left His presence the glory of his face faded as it clearly states.

But if you think Paul is teaching, we no longer have to only worship God and can steal and lie and murder and teach the opposite of what God promised-I will not alter My words Psa 89:34, not a jot or tittle can pass Mat 5:18 and is teaching now its ok to sin Rom 7:7 dishonor God Rom 2:21-23 and be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 so Jesus will say depart from Me at His Second Coming Mat 7:21-23 we are given free will. Weird Jesus would say one is a hypocrite for obeying their laws over obeying the commandment of God, quoting from the Ten Commandments, calls it worshipping in vain having's one heart far from Him, only to have Paul countermand what He taught. According to Jesus He has all authority Mat 28:18 and the servant is not greater than our Heavenly Master. So even if that was what Paul is teaching, which its not, Paul can't save us, only Jesus can. Even the apostles taught we ought to obey God over man. Acts 5:29
The term “fading as IT was” is contrasting between the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit. If you interpret it as fading as the glory of Moses’ face then it doesn’t line up with the contrast between the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit.

“But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The last statement is contrasting between the glory of the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit, it is not contrasting between the glory of Moses’ face with the ministry of the Spirit. Look at the next statement.

“For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now is Paul contrasting between the glory of Moses’ face with the ministry of the Spirit or is he contrasting between the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The term “fading as IT was” is contrasting between the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit. If you interpret it as fading as the glory of Moses’ face then it doesn’t line up with the contrast between the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit.
It says so verbatim because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,
“But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul is contrasting the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. God's law going from tables of stone to tablets of the heart. Instead of keeping on our efforts as the old covenant was established on Exo 19:8 its now kept on what God will do through His Spirit. Same law, just a better way of keeping it through the Spirit. No longer external on tables of stone but internal written in the heart and mind based on what God will do. We still need to cooperate which is why there is the word "If"

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

The last statement is contrasting between the glory of the ministry of death and the ministry of the Spirit, it is not contrasting between the glory of Moses’ face with the ministry of the Spirit.
It's an allegory, the fading was the face of Moses, replaced with the face of Christ. Contrasting the Old Covenant with New which is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws Heb 8:10. God would have never changed the covenant Heb 8:7-8 had they not broken it, so it wasn't as if God changed His mind and altered His words that He said He would not Psa 89:34 on His perfect law Psa 19:7 because perfect is just that, He is just giving people a better way of keeping it because He loves us so much.

Rom 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The wages of sin is death and its still a sin to break God's law in the NC 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 but through the ministry of the Spirit if we are connected to Christ and abide in Him John 15:5-10 1 John 2:6 how much greater than the ministry of death, The consequences of sin for breaking God's law which is holy, just and good Rom 7:12
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Orthodox Church has never made such an admission. I have seen Roman Catholic documents that refer to the church changing the sabbath to Sunday, but the Orthodox Church does not make that claim. I am reasonably certain Ellen G. White was unaware that we even existed, for if she were, she would have had to address the fact that the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox have worship services on every Sabbath throughout the year and no Sabbath is an aliturgical day for us.
The Catholic Church recognizes the Sabbath is Saturday. Aside from some hundred year old article in some random diocesan newspaper by some random Catholic priest Catholics have not said the Church changed the Sabbath to Sunday.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The GLORY of his face because Moses was in the presence of GOD and as Moses left His presence the glory of his face faded as it clearly states.

But if you think Paul is teaching, we no longer have to only worship God and can steal and lie and murder and teach the opposite of what God promised-I will not alter My words Psa 89:34, not a jot or tittle can pass Mat 5:18 and is teaching now its ok to sin Rom 7:7 dishonor God Rom 2:21-23 and be an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 so Jesus will say depart from Me at His Second Coming Mat 7:21-23 we are given free will. Weird Jesus would say one is a hypocrite for obeying their laws over obeying the commandment of God, quoting from the Ten Commandments, calls it worshipping in vain having's one heart far from Him, only to have Paul countermand what He taught. According to Jesus He has all authority Mat 28:18 and the servant is not greater than our Heavenly Master. So even if that was what Paul is teaching, which its not, Paul can't save us, only Jesus can. Even the apostles taught we ought to obey God over man. Acts 5:29
The children of Israel could not stand to look upon Moses because of the glory of God that shone from his face. So, Moses put on a veil (2 Co 3:13). This is indicative of the fact that a veil lies on the hearts of the lost (2 Cor 3:15). Their minds are blinded (2 Cor 3:14). They cannot stand to see the glory of the Lord.

But the veil is taken away when a person turns to the Lord (2 Cor 3:16). Without a vail on our faces, we see a much greater glory than than that which the ancient children of Israel hid themselves from. We look into our hearts (as if we're looking in a mirror) and we see the glory of God living in our hearts, and we even see ourselves participating in His glory, having been transformed into His image by the Spirit of the Lord (2 Cor 3:18). This is the glory of the New Covenant which exceeds the glories that existed under the Old Covenant (2 Cor 3:10).
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The children of Israel could not stand to look upon Moses because of the glory of God that shone from his face. So, Moses put on a veil (2 Co 3:13). This is indicative of the fact that a veil lies on the hearts of the lost (2 Cor 3:15). Their minds are blinded (2 Cor 3:14). They cannot stand to see the glory of the Lord.

But the veil is taken away when a person turns to the Lord (2 Cor 3:16). Without a vail on our faces, we see a much greater glory than than that which the ancient children of Israel hid themselves from. We look into our hearts (as if we're looking in a mirror) and we see the glory of God living in our hearts, and we even see ourselves participating in His glory, having been transformed into His image by the Spirit of the Lord (2 Cor 3:18). This is the glory of the New Covenant which exceeds the glories that existed under the Old Covenant (2 Cor 3:10).
The glory that shinned on Moses face because he was in the presence of God, fading replaced with Christ, who is the Mediator of the New Covenant. God's law administering through Christ.

God placed His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws, based on what God will do, through His Spirit enabling us to keep what God placed in our hearts and minds His law through our love and cooperation with Him. Its still a sin to break God's law in the NC 1 John 3:4 James 2:10-12 Rom 7:7 but if we abide in Christ and connected to Him, He is the one enabling us to keep, the much better promise of the New Covenant Paul was contrasting.

 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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The glory that shown on Moses face because he was in the presence of God faded replaced by Christ. God's law administering through Christ.

God placed His law in our hearts Heb 8:10 established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better laws, based on what God will do, through His Spirit enabling to keep what God placed in our hearts and minds His law through our love and cooperation with Him.
This bears no resemblance to Paul's discussion in the 3rd chapter of 2 Corinthians. It does not speak of "replaced" glory, but of "glory that excels". It does not speak of God's law administered by Christ. It does speak of God placing His laws in our hearts. It does not speak of better promises. It does not speak of God enabling us to keep His laws. And it does not speak about "our love and coooperation" with God.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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This bears no resemblance to Paul's discussion in the 3rd chapter of 2 Corinthians. It does not speak of "replaced" glory, but of "glory that excels".
Paul is contrasting the Old Covenant with the New Covenant

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?


The law was received through Moses. Who is the Mediator now of the New Covenant? It's Christ Heb 9:15

It does not speak of God's law administered by Christ.
Who is the one administering the law in the New Covenant that was placed in the heart?

It does speak of God placing His laws in our hearts. It does not speak of better promises.
Its what the New Covenant is established on, better promises Heb 8:6 Paul is showing what these better promises are- from written in stone to written in the heart, Moses replaced by Christ through His Spirit
It does not speak of God enabling us to keep His laws.
Do you think you can keep God;s law based on your own efforts? This is what the Old Covenant was established on Exo 19:8 why the New is so much better, based on what God will do Heb 8:10 John 14:15-18
And it does not speak about "our love and coooperation" with God.
Do you think God forces His law that He placed on our hearts? If that's the case no need for us being separated from God, no need for Judgement, no need to do God's will or surrender to Christ. All of God's promises are conditional, we have the option to rebel Rom 8:7-8 so of course He needs our cooperation.
 
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RandyPNW

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God blessed, man can't reverse Num 23:20 and you are not God to take that away. God said Blessed are those who do His commandments Rev 22:14 the Sabbath is a commandment of God, thus saith the Lord.

But you haven't, you only post your words which is why it’s important to actually post Scripture so we can see what it says in how it relates to the commentary being used.

I have not judged anyone about the Sabbath. I only show what the scriptures say about God's Sabbath. All Judging is for God. Ecc 12:13-14 James 2:10-12 2 Cor 5:10 Its also taken out of context to what Paul is referring to. It doesn't say Sabbath observance is says sabbath(s) and the context of what Paul is referring to is in v14 something contrary and against, which is not the definition of what God said the weekly Sabbath is, holy, sanctified and blessed by God. something taken away at the cross, yet Jesus commissioned His faithful to pray for 40 years after the Cross, their flight would not be on the Sabbath day Mat 24:20 so either Jesus made a mistake when He clearly indicated the Sabbath would be kept long after the Cross, or we are misunderstanding Paul. I do not believe Jesus makes mistakes.
On Mat 24.20 the argument is that Jesus told people to avoid Sabbath in their escape not because they were observing it but because those in Israel would be observing it and take offense at those who seem to show contempt for their beliefs.

This is what actually happened just prior to 70 AD. It took several years after Cestius Gallus invaded Jerusalem for the Christians to prepare for and depart from Jerusalem with their families.

It was difficult on pregnant women. And it was difficult to close up shop and prepare for a long journey with their full belongings.

The Sabbath Law, observed by non-believing Jews, would take offense at any believing Jew who appeared to work on that day, without recognizing a real need to escape. The closer the time got to 70 AD, after a couple of years of preparation, the less time there would be to avoid working on the Sabbath for this departure.

Right up until 70 AD, when news arrived that the Romans were coming, unbelieving Jews would take offense at people preparing to leave on the Sabbath. They believed that God would spare them, as He seemed to do earlier with Cestius Galus in 66 AD. But God had spared them only as a sign for the believing Jews to prepare to leave.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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On Mat 24.20 the argument is that Jesus told people to avoid Sabbath in their escape not because they were observing it but because those in Israel would be observing it and take offense at those who seem to show contempt for their beliefs.
Where is that in the Text? The word avoid is no where to be found. I would consider what Proverbs says Pro 30:5-6


Mat 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

This is what actually happened just prior to 70 AD. It took several years after Cestius Gallus invaded Jerusalem for the Christians to prepare for and depart from Jerusalem with their families.
Mat 24:17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

Nothing about years to prepare, they were not told when this event would take place, but Jesus told them the signs to look for, so if they followed what Jesus said when they saw the sign, they would flee and not die, as it turned out to be about 40 years later and Jesus told them to pray during this time their flight would not be in the winter or the Sabbath because the Sabbath didn't end at the cross according to Christ. If it was nailed to the cross, no need for anyone to pray about their flight being on the Sabbath day.

It was difficult on pregnant women. And it was difficult to close up shop and prepare for a long journey with their full belongings.

The Sabbath Law, observed by non-believing Jews, would take offense at any believing Jew who appeared to work on that day, without recognizing a real need to escape. The closer the time got to 70 AD, after a couple of years of preparation, the less time there would be to avoid working on the Sabbath for this departure.

Right up until 70 AD, when news arrived that the Romans were coming, unbelieving Jews would take offense at people preparing to leave on the Sabbath. They believed that God would spare them, as He seemed to do earlier with Cestius Galus in 66 AD. But God had spared them only as a sign for the believing Jews to prepare to leave.
Can you please use Scripture, because our own ideas and thoughts are not the same, I pray one day you see this.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Paul is contrasting the Old Covenant with the New Covenant

2 Cor 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

The law was received through Moses. Who is the Mediator now of the New Covenant? It's Christ Heb 9:15

Who is the one administering the law in the New Covenant that was placed in the heart?
He was contrasting "the ministry of death" with "the ministry of the Spirit". He contrasts the blindness to God's glory that exists under the ministry of death with clearly seeing God's glory in our hearts that exists as a result of the ministry of the Spirit. It does not speak about any NT Laws being ministered by the Spirit.
Its was the New Covenant is established on, better promises Heb 8:6 Paul is showing what these better promises are- from written in stone to tablets of the heart, Moses replaced by Christ through His Spirit.

Do you think you can keep God;s law based on your own efforts? This is what the Old Covenant was established on Exo 19:8 why the New is so much better
I know that obeying all God's laws is important to you, but this concept is not addressed in 2 Corintinas 3.
Do you think God forces His law that He placed on our hearts to everyone. If that's the case no need for us being separated by God, no need for Judgement, no need to do God's will or surrender to Christ
I don't know what your're asking unless it is about universalism. Regardless, none of this is represented in 2 Corinthians 3.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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He was contrasting "the ministry of death" with "the ministry of the Spirit". He contrasts the blindness to God's glory that exists under the ministry of death with clearly seeing God's glory in our hearts that exists as a result of the ministry of the Spirit. It does not speak about any NT Laws being ministered by the Spirit.
Its God's law in the heart, not God's glory on our hearts 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10

What is the ministry of death?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,

What is the ministry of the Spirit as it pertains to the context of the letter vs the old from tables of stone to tablets of the heart, not by ink but by the Spirit

The New Covenant established based on what God will do Heb 8:10 through His Spirit John 14:15-18



I know that obeying all God's laws is important to you, but this concept is not addressed in 2 Corintinas 3.
So we should rebel what God placed in our heart, His law 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 thats a choice one can make.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
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trophy33

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It doesn't say anything about "keep" winter so not sure where that came from
That is exactly the point. The verse is not about any keeping, it is about practical obstacles to running away from cities. No verse from the dozens you are using is justifying any Sabbath keeping. You only read it into them.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Its God's law in the heart, not God's glory on our hearts 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10
2 Cor 3:3 speaks of the Corinthians being a letter written on Paul's heart, written not with ink, but by the Holy Spirit. It's not talking about the law being written on our hearts (though the law is written on our hearts).
What is the ministry of death?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,
Yes, any disobedience to the law brings about death. It can be as simple a sin as eating something God told you not to eat.
What is the ministry of the Spirit as it pertains to the context of the letter vs the old from tables of stone to tablets of the heart, not by ink but by the Spirit
See my first comment above.
The New Covenant established based on what God will do Heb 8:10 through His Spirit John 14:15-18

So we should rebel what God placed in our heart, His law 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10 thats a choice one can make.
Well, this is a strange response to my points. I have not said nor have I implied rebellion against God is a path to rightness with Him. I just think it is better to try to understand what a passage is saying instead of projecting other things onto it.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That is exactly the point. The verse is not about any keeping, it is about practical obstacles to running away from cities. No verse from the dozens you are using is justifying any Sabbath keeping. You only read it into them.
There is no scripture anywhere to keep winter, it never says that, it says pray for your flight not be in winter or the Sabbath. The Sabbath we are to keep holy according to God Exo 20:6
 
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