Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?

[ewq1938]

The trumpets sound and the vials are poured out all during the seven seals. You are placing a restriction that really isn't there.

All seals are opened before the first trump sounds. When the last trump sounds, the vials will be poured.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm pretty certain jamdoc already agrees with that. I think =/= means Not Equal to.

There is one part I disagree with his statement the "3 and a half year tribulation" I don't think the great tribulation is even that long. that's the MAXIMUM length of time it can be, but it's cut short.

I look at Matthew 24:22, yes the beast gets a 42 month reign and if it was allowed to go to completion the beast would succeed in killing all Christians and Jews
So Jesus returns to cut it short for the elect. Those in Christ are raptured, and 1/3 of Israel manage to be rescued and brought back. The 42 month reign continues for the rest of the world. I don't know by how long, but if Noah's flood is any indication, at 1 year, 10 days of the wrath of God.. Jesus also says a year in Isaiah 63:4
I've heard speculation of from 1 feast of trumpets.... to the Day of Atonement the next year, 1 year, 10 days.
But that is speculation. It's not scripture, so grain of salt.

What is scripture is that the 5th trumpet takes at least 5 months
so it's at least 5 months.

But the foundation of the idea is that there is language in OT prophecy showing Jesus coming back, and then going places and doing things. It's not just 1 single day at the end of 42 months.

 

[ewq1938]

except the 7th seal dispenses the trumpets

The 7th seal only showed John 30 min of silence in heaven. It does not have anything to do with the trumpets.

 

[ewq1938]

There is one part I disagree with his statement the "3 and a half year tribulation" I don't think the great tribulation is even that long. that's the MAXIMUM length of time it can be, but it's cut short.

Christ said it would be cut short, and Rev shows us how long it was cut down to. It was originally 7 years so it was cut down to half of that.

 

[Jamdoc]

The 7th seal only showed John 30 min of silence in heaven. It does not have anything to do with the trumpets.

It's a solemn procession because of the wrath that is coming.

Revelation 7

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

First "And after these things" is a connecting clause to the previous vision, the 6th seal.
So after the 6th seal, when it's announced that the wrath of God is come, the Angels that are going to dispense the wrath are instructed not to do it yet.

Revelation 8

1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

So they get an order not to start yet, then the 7th seal is opened, the 7 trumpets given out, and then the angel using the censer gives the signal to begin.

Let's look at something else as well.

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.

So what's the picture painted here?
That it will be normal for sinners up until the day that Jesus comes back, but the righteous will be mocked and persecuted. Both Noah and Lot tried to warn people but they were mocked.
They were also both taken away to safety just before the wrath of God started, not at the end of it, but just before it started. They did however have to endure persecution up to that point.
The wrath of God began the same day they were taken to safety.

and Jesus says that's what it's going to be like when He comes back.
That for sinners, life will go on as normal, but those who will be rescued are persecuted
Then they're rescued
Then wrath on the sinners.

If it was like your position... who's getting married during the 5th trumpet?
Who's planting fields during the first trumpet? All the green grass is burned up.

Mind you you know, 2 Peter 3, talks about when the day of the Lord comes the whole world is set on fire?
The first trumpet is setting the whole world on fire. Trees are harder to set on fire than grass, so, 1/3 of them burn up, but the underbrush is torched.

If the first trumpet is the same day as the 6th seal, well that all falls into place, shortly after the 6th seal the 7th seal is opened, half an hour after that, the whole planet is set on fire.

Your position would have the whole planet set on fire BEFORE Jesus comes back.

 

[Jamdoc]

Christ said it would be cut short, and Rev shows us how long it was cut down to. It was originally 7 years so it was cut down to half of that.

It was never "originally 7 years"
it was given in Daniel as time, times, and half a time, 3.5 years.

 

[DavidPT]

The seven seals are parenthetical and cover the entire judgement period.

That appears to be a reasonable way to put it. I tend to then agree.

There is silence in heaven because Jesus, the saints and the angels have come to earth

But what about when this half hour meant ends? Shouldn't that mean heaven is once again occupied? Otherwise, wouldn't the silence in heaven be neverending if the initial reason for the silence is that Jesus, the saints and the angels have come to earth? Does this mean they return 30 minutes later in order for the silence in heaven to end?

I have heard the theory you are proposing before. I don't know if it explains it or not since the text indicates the silence is for about half an hour. And once again, the fact this half hour has to end, this should mean this silence has ended when this half hour meant expires. So, what ended it if what started it was Jesus, the saints and the angels having come to earth, thus vacated heaven 30 minutes earlier?

 

[DavidPT]

All seals are opened before the first trump sounds. When the last trump sounds, the vials will be poured.

Which doesn't mean the same thing as all of the events involving the first 6 seals, that these events are fulfilled before any of the trumpets sound, correct? If yes, I think I'm finally grasping where you are coming from in that case.

 

[Jamdoc]

That appears to be a reasonable way to put it. I tend to then agree.



But what about when this half hour meant ends? Shouldn't that mean heaven is once again occupied? Otherwise, wouldn't the silence in heaven be neverending if the initial reason for the silence is that Jesus, the saints and the angels have come to earth? Does this mean they return 30 minutes later in order for the silence in heaven to end?

I have heard the theory you are proposing before. I don't know if it explains it or not since the text indicates the silence is for about half an hour. And once again, the fact this half hour has to end, this should mean this silence has ended when this half hour meant expires. So, what ended it if what started it was Jesus, the saints and the angels having come to earth, thus vacated heaven 30 minutes earlier?

What about if that's just when Jesus goes down?

Because okay, so 6th seal is the signs of Him appearing on the clouds, and Revelation 7 has the lamb still in heaven
Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So the lamb is in heaven in this scene. So it's like the heavens open up in the 6th seal, and Jesus is visible on the clouds on a throne, that's what those on the Earth are wailing about, to hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the lamb.

Revelation 6

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

These are unbelievers, they have to see Him to believe Him.
But anyway, He doesn't come down then, He's visible, He's worshiped by those raptured up, THEN He comes down, with the 7th seal, and the 7 trumpets.

because as I pointed out to you I guess in another thread, in Revelation 19, the Lamb is not stated to be gin heaven. He's talked about, but they don't worship the Lamb as they worship God who sits on the throne. While in Revelation 7 they worship both God who sits on the throne, AND the Lamb.
It's a critical omission.

 

[DavidPT]

It was never "originally 7 years"
it was given in Daniel as time, times, and half a time, 3.5 years.

I tend to think what is meant by it is cut short, is the fact that if it continued indefinitely, the end result would be what is trying to be avoided, that no flesh would be saved. It doesn't matter if it's meaning 7 years or 3.5 years, it still involves that entire amount of time, 3.5 years in this case, but isn't permitted to extend past that period of time because if it did, no flesh would be saved eventually. By no flesh being saved, I tend to take that to mean as in wiped off the planet, as in went extinct. Keeping in mind, it says it is for the elect's sake these days are cut short. The elect, obviously meaning the church, which further proves that the wrath is against the church, thus satan's wrath, not God's wrath---for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time(Revelation 12:12)

 

[DavidPT]

because as I pointed out to you I guess in another thread, in Revelation 19, the Lamb is not stated to be gin heaven. He's talked about, but they don't worship the Lamb as they worship God who sits on the throne. While in Revelation 7 they worship both God who sits on the throne, AND the Lamb.
It's a critical omission.

As to Revelation 7 and what you brought up, where I am assuming you are meaning verses 15-17, if comparing that to Revelation 21-22, the time period meant is during the new heavens and new earth and is meaning on earth not in heaven. Therefore, in that particular context it is parenthetical, in my opinion anyway.


As to the 7 trumpets, though you never brought this up in this post, and that they have to fit somewhere within Matthew 24 since that ch recodrs the 2nd coming, and that the first 6 trumpets at least, have to precede the 2nd coming. While I can see trumpets 1-3 maybe fitting after the great tribulation, I'm not seeing how trumpets 4-6 could also be meaning after great tribulation. Those trumpets involve the time of the beast, at least trumpet 6 does, which then means trumpet 6 fits during the time involving Matthew 24:15-26.

And since the first 3 trumpets logically precede the 6th trumpet, and that if the the 6th trumpet involves Matthew 24:15-26, this means the first 3 trumpets are meaning prior to the trib of those days, or maybe even during the trib of those days, not after the trib of those days. This is why your view on this is so confusing to me since I can't see trumpets 4-6 meaning after the trib of those days, and that trumpets 1-3 have to precede trumpets 4-6.

 

[ewq1938]

Which doesn't mean the same thing as all of the events involving the first 6 seals, that these events are fulfilled before any of the trumpets sound, correct? If yes, I think I'm finally grasping where you are coming from in that case.

I'm not sure I understand your question. My belief is that all the seals are simply glimpses of future events that will happen when the trumps sound. Jesus was in heaven opening the seals, all of them. He did not leave heaven when he opened teh 6th seal because it was not an event that was happening right then. Nothing happened in the world or heaven when each seal was opened aside from John seeing visions of the future.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm not sure I understand your question. My belief is that all the seals are simply glimpses of future events that will happen when the trumps sound. Jesus was in heaven opening the seals, all of them. He did not leave heaven when he opened teh 6th seal because it was not an event that was happening right then. Nothing happened in the world or heaven when each seal was opened aside from John seeing visions of the future.

That seems to mean that even though all the seals have already been opened, the events they involve haven't been fulfilled yet, or at least none of them were being fulfilled as Jesus was opening them, like you indicated. Where pertaining to the latter, I fully agree. which then means, just because the first trumpet is recorded as if it chronologically follows after the first 6 seals are fulfilled first, meaning what they record that those things come to pass, that that is not really the case.

IOW, it is not until all 7 seals are opened first, that any angels are eventually given trumpets to sound. Which means that happens in real time once it begins, something that never happened when the seals were opened 2000 years ago. And that this does not mean that the first angel, for example, sounds after what is recorded in the first 6 seals come to pass first. Not meaning the opening of the seals since that obviously already came to pass, but meaning the events each seal is involving, those events coming to pass.

Hopefully this is less confusing this time around for you, as to what I was getting at, since I'm thinking that it sounds like we might be on the same page here.

 

[ewq1938]

That seems to mean that even though all the seals have already been opened, the events they involve haven't been fulfilled yet, or at least none of them were being fulfilled as Jesus was opening them, like you indicated. Where pertaining to the latter, I fully agree. which then means, just because the first trumpet is recorded as if it chronologically follows after the first 6 seals are fulfilled first, meaning what they record that those things come to pass, that that is not really the case.

IOW, it is not until all 7 seals are opened first, that any angels are eventually given trumpets to sound. Which means that happens in real time once it begins, something that never happened when the seals were opened 2000 years ago. And that this does not mean that the first angel, for example, sounds after what is recorded in the first 6 seals come to pass first. Not meaning the opening of the seals since that obviously already came to pass, but meaning the events each seal is involving, those events coming to pass.

Hopefully this is less confusing this time around for you, as to what I was getting at, since I'm thinking that it sounds like we might be on the same page here.

I understand some of this but parts like where you keep talking about 6 seals (rather than all 7) makes no sense.

 

[Jamdoc]

I tend to think what is meant by it is cut short, is the fact that if it continued indefinitely, the end result would be what is trying to be avoided, that no flesh would be saved. It doesn't matter if it's meaning 7 years or 3.5 years, it still involves that entire amount of time, 3.5 years in this case, but isn't permitted to extend past that period of time because if it did, no flesh would be saved eventually. By no flesh being saved, I tend to take that to mean as in wiped off the planet, as in went extinct. Keeping in mind, it says it is for the elect's sake these days are cut short. The elect, obviously meaning the church, which further proves that the wrath is against the church, thus satan's wrath, not God's wrath---for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time(Revelation 12:12)

So there is an appointed amount of time that the beast will rule, if he had the saints given over to him and was not interrupted, I think he'd successfully starve them out, but it'd be cut short to prevent that.

But the beast does continue to rule his 42 months, it's just not a very smooth rule, with the wrath of God going on.

But the balancing act has to be done, because Jesus said that the days before his coming, not before the tribulation, but the day when He is revealed, have normal activity going on by sinners, as the days of Noah, and the days of Lot.

funnily enough, Nelson Walters did a video on this today.

It's timely.

if you have the trumpets going on before revealing of Christ... it would disrupt normal life.

 

[Jamdoc]

As to Revelation 7 and what you brought up, where I am assuming you are meaning verses 15-17, if comparing that to Revelation 21-22, the time period meant is during the new heavens and new earth and is meaning on earth not in heaven. Therefore, in that particular context it is parenthetical, in my opinion anyway.

No I'm referring to verses 9-14.
Saints in heaven, after the 5th seal which is definitely tribulation consistent with every use of the word in the bible, but before wrath.
Revelation 15 presents the same timing. After the mark of the beast, so.. tribulation/persecution... but before the vials.

As to the 7 trumpets, though you never brought this up in this post, and that they have to fit somewhere within Matthew 24 since that ch recodrs the 2nd coming, and that the first 6 trumpets at least, have to precede the 2nd coming. While I can see trumpets 1-3 maybe fitting after the great tribulation, I'm not seeing how trumpets 4-6 could also be meaning after great tribulation. Those trumpets involve the time of the beast, at least trumpet 6 does, which then means trumpet 6 fits during the time involving Matthew 24:15-26.

"they have to fit somewhere within Matthew 24"
That's the thing
they don't.
Matthew 24 is the signs up until His coming.

That's what I'm trying to get across to you guys. That He comes sooner than you think.
None of the trumpets or vials are mentioned as signs of Jesus' coming because they happen after Jesus comes.

Jesus gives events that match the first 6 seals.
Then it's His coming, which is the same signs given in the 6th seal (though I can acquiesce to the idea that He doesn't actually descend until the 7th seal)..

And since the first 3 trumpets logically precede the 6th trumpet, and that if the the 6th trumpet involves Matthew 24:15-26, this means the first 3 trumpets are meaning prior to the trib of those days, or maybe even during the trib of those days, not after the trib of those days. This is why your view on this is so confusing to me since I can't see trumpets 4-6 meaning after the trib of those days, and that trumpets 1-3 have to precede trumpets 4-6.

If I accidentally said 6th trumpet instead of 6th seal at any time I apologize.
None of the trumpets are the great tribulation
all of them happen after the great tribulation, they all happen after Jesus returns.

there's 2 Narratives, 4-11, and 12-20

the first Narrative goes first 5 seals which are the most that can be considered great tribulation -> 6th seal -> resurrection, rapture, saints in heaven -> 7th seal and Jesus on the Earth -> 7 trumpets which are the wrath of the lamb -> ushering in of the Millennial Kingdom, then final judgement.

second Narrative goes rise of the beast and persecution of the saints and mark of the beast (great tribulation) -> Jesus on the clouds with 2 reapings, 1 done by Jesus which does not go in the wrath of God, the second by an angel which is put through the wrath of God -> saints in heaven having overcome the mark -> 7 bowls which are the wrath of God -> ushering in of the Millennial Kingdom, then final judgement.

same pattern but different details.
it's the same pattern throughout the bible of persecution -> deliverance -> wrath of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

so here's a thing, this idea that the seals aren't events but rather just information and the scroll can't be read until after all 7 seals are undone...
but what is described as happening are events

So whether the seals were actually loosed 2000 years ago or opening the scroll is a yet future event is irrelevant.

what we're talking about is the event described in the book after each seal is undone. Whenever the seal itself is undone, and the events described after each seal is undone are MARKEDLY DIFFERENT from the events described when the trumpets are blown or the vials poured.

The events described after the first 5 seals being undone are all actions of men.
the event described after the 6th seal is undone in the text is supernatural, and not by men aside from the Man Christ Jesus.
and the event described after the 7th seal is undone is something taking place in heaven, not carried out by men aside from the Man Christ Jesus.

But the events described after the trumpets are blown, and the events described after the vials are poured, are things that men cannot do.

so the "seal is just revealing information" argument .. is a moot point.

 

[ewq1938]

all of them happen after the great tribulation, they all happen after Jesus returns.

I'd be surprised if even one person agrees with that. It's quite clear ALL the trumps sound before Jesus returns and the GT does take place during the 6th trump because Rev 11 tells us how the 6th/2nd woe ends and the 7th/3rd woe shortly happens and the two prophets of Rev 11 die in the GT period.

 

[ewq1938]

so here's a thing, this idea that the seals aren't events but rather just information and the scroll can't be read until after all 7 seals are undone...
but what is described as happening are events

But future events not events that happen when each seal is opened. Jesus spoke of the same basic things in the OD but they didn't happen when he spoke of them. Neither do the events happen when we are told of them when the seals are opened.

The easy way to know this is the fact that Jesus remains in heaven after opening the 6th seal rather than leaving and taking part in the events the 6th seal describes. Jesus remains to open the 7th seal and remains in heaven for many centuries before the 7th trump announces his return. This is of course a future event.

 

[Douggg]