Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?

[DavidPT]

Yes, it does.

If you read this verse about the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the literal versions, it gives us the timing for this Scarlet Beast's reappearance. Revelation 17:8 in the YLT reads this way: "The beast that thou didst see: it WAS, and IT IS NOT; and IT IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS, AND TO GO AWAY TO DESTRUCTION..."

Apparently, though I never really noticed before, numerous translations translate it that way. Yet, I see it being irrelevant in this case since the remainder of that verse proves this never happened during John's generation to begin with, meaning this part---and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

One keyword here is 'wonder'. It is the Greek word thaumazo and is also used in Revelation 13 per the following, thus connecting this beast with the one that shall rise up out of the sea.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered(thaumazo) after the beast.

And who is it that wonders after the beast?

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


The very same ones we are told about in Revelation 17:8---and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. And notice how that verse ends---when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Obviously, they don't do that until this part is true first--and yet is---meaning it has ascended out of the pit.

The Greek word some Translations are translating as 'about to' is 'mello'. And as can be seen below, that's not the only definition of that word. IMO, translating it 'after' or 'afterwards' makes better sense of the text since it is obviously after it was and is not, that it ascends. The translation you are using gives the impression that it's possibly meaning in John's generation, except Revelation 13 is proving that wrong since this also requires a 2nd beast coming up out of the earth and deceiving those upon the earth via lying wonders and lying miracles.

mello
mel'-lo
a strengthened form of melw - melo 3199 (through the idea of expectation); to intend, i.e. be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation):--about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.

 

[DavidPT]

There is ample internal evidence within the book of Revelation to date it quite precisely. It was written sometime between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - no later than the AD 60 calamitous earthquake that came to the city of Laodicea. That self-satisfied city and its inhabitants was about to have God's judgment passed upon it, which is why John wrote a warning to the Laodicean church members, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake occurred.

Even if Revelation was written before 70 AD, maybe it was maybe it wasn't, that alone does not undeniably prove that any of it it is involving what took place in 70 AD. We have to try and determine that via things, such as, does any of the following support that---and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. In what way would any of this have any relevance one way or the other, as to what occurred in 70 AD?

 

[3 Resurrections]

DavidPT, the Revelation 13 Sea Beast and the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness are NOT the same beast. They had different origins, different activities, and different fates.

The Sea Beast that had Satan's throne in Pergamos given to it (Revelation 2:13 cp Revelation 13:2) was connected with Rome. The entire Pergamum kingdom was given to the Roman Republic by the dying king Attalus III in 133 BC, including that throne of Satan (the Pergamos altar) in the city of Pergamos. And the two-horned leadership of the Land Beast (the Pharisee and Sadducee leadership over the land of Israel who spoke lies like the Dragon) worked in conjunction and support of that Roman Sea Beast. This was done quite literally "in the eyesight" of that Roman Sea Beast, whose Roman troops garrisoned in the Antonia Fortress literally oversaw the Temple operations from their vantage point across the way.

The Scarlet Beast was connected with the wilderness setting in the land of Israel - not with Rome from across the Mediterranean Sea. The Scarlet Beast was the independent kingdom of the nation of Israel which had once existed after the Maccabee victories, then lost that independent status about 80 years later when it was put under tribute to Rome by Pompey. The disciples wanted to see that independent kingdom of Israel restored by the risen Christ (Acts 1:6), but He essentially told them not to concern themselves with that, since they had more important things to pursue - like evangelism in Jerusalem, Judea, etc..

That Scarlet Beast kingdom of an independent nation of Israel was truly "about to arise" in the year AD 66 when Israel broke free of their Roman overlords and started minting their own currency. That Scarlet Beast kingdom of an independent nation of Israel under their Zealot leaders only lasted until the city of Jerusalem and its temple were torn down to the last stone in AD 70. It truly was "about to...go into destruction", soon after John wrote those Revelation 17:8 words around AD 60.

For Israel to cast off their oppressive Roman governance was astonishing to the Israelite populace, who were longing to be freed from the presence of the Romans in their city and nation. The reappearance of an independent kingdom of Israel under the Zealots' rebellion would have made all in Israel marvel at the Zealots being able to kick off their Roman governance.

 

[DavidPT]

DavidPT, the Revelation 13 Sea Beast and the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness are NOT the same beast. They had different origins, different activities, and different fates.

The Sea Beast that had Satan's throne in Pergamos given to it (Revelation 2:13 cp Revelation 13:2) was connected with Rome. The entire Pergamum kingdom was given to the Roman Republic by the dying king Attalus III in 133 BC, including that throne of Satan (the Pergamos altar) in the city of Pergamos. And the two-horned leadership of the Land Beast (the Pharisee and Sadducee leadership over the land of Israel who spoke lies like the Dragon) worked in conjunction and support of that Roman Sea Beast. This was done quite literally "in the eyesight" of that Roman Sea Beast, whose Roman troops garrisoned in the Antonia Fortress literally oversaw the Temple operations from their vantage point across the way.

The Scarlet Beast was connected with the wilderness setting in the land of Israel - not with Rome from across the Mediterranean Sea. The Scarlet Beast was the independent kingdom of the nation of Israel which had once existed after the Maccabee victories, then lost that independent status about 80 years later when it was put under tribute to Rome by Pompey. The disciples wanted to see that independent kingdom of Israel restored by the risen Christ (Acts 1:6), but He essentially told them not to concern themselves with that, since they had more important things to pursue - like evangelism in Jerusalem, Judea, etc..

That Scarlet Beast kingdom of an independent nation of Israel was truly "about to arise" in the year AD 66 when Israel broke free of their Roman overlords and started minting their own currency. That Scarlet Beast kingdom of an independent nation of Israel under their Zealot leaders only lasted until the city of Jerusalem and its temple were torn down to the last stone in AD 70. It truly was "about to...go into destruction", soon after John wrote those Revelation 17:8 words around AD 60.

For Israel to cast off their oppressive Roman governance was astonishing to the Israelite populace, who were longing to be freed from the presence of the Romans in their city and nation. The reappearance of an independent kingdom of Israel under the Zealots' rebellion would have made all in Israel marvel at the Zealots being able to kick off their Roman governance.

To me it makes zero sense to not try and interpret any of Revelation 13 via any of Revelation 17. For example. Where in Revelation 13 does it tell us the interpretation of the heads? Does it not tell us that in Revelation 17? Why would none of that be applicable to any of the 7 heads in Revelation 13?

How is it that both the Revelation 13 beast and the Revelation 17 beast, these both ascend out of somewhere, and that both involve those not found written in the book of life wondering after them, unless these are one and the same? The way I tend to look at it, right or wrong, the fact the Revelation 17 beast ascends out of the bottomless pit, and that the Revelation 13 beast ascends out of the sea, that could mean that 'the bottomless pit' is being meant by 'the sea' in Revelation 13:1.

Granted, obviously you have researched some of these things in far more depth than I have, which means there is the chance you could be correct about some of these things, based on the fact that I'm not factoring some of these things in, but still I don't see why what I'm arguing, why that it is not relevant?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, it does.

If you read this verse about the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the literal versions, it gives us the timing for this Scarlet Beast's reappearance. Revelation 17:8 in the YLT reads this way: "The beast that thou didst see: it WAS, and IT IS NOT; and IT IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS, AND TO GO AWAY TO DESTRUCTION..."

Both the reappearance AND THE DESTRUCTION of this Scarlet Beast was "ABOUT TO" happen in the experience of those John was writing to.

There is no such "about to" in the manuscripts concerning that verse. We know from history that it did not happen in John's life. He didn't even witness the at the time current king/kingdom fall which was Rome.

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is no such "about to" in the manuscripts concerning that verse. We know from history that it did not happen in John's life. He didn't even witness the at the time current king/kingdom fall which was Rome.

Yes, there IS an "about to" in that Revelation 17:8 verse, and in a number of other verses in Revelation as well, as the YLT and other versions acknowledge according to the Greek.

The Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness was NOT identified as being Roman. That Scarlet Beast kingdom was identified as being the independent kingdom nation of ISRAEL which once "WAS" in existence, then was lost and "WAS NOT" when John was writing Revelation. This was the lost kingdom which the disciples asked Christ about in Acts 1:6 when they inquired, "Lord, wilt thou at this time RESTORE AGAIN the kingdom to ISRAEL?"

The Scarlet Beast as the independent kingdom of the nation of Israel was in John's days "ABOUT TO ARISE..." with the launching of the Zealot rebellion against Rome in AD 66, and then it was also "ABOUT TO...go into DESTRUCTION" in AD 70 when the city and temple were torn down to the last stone, as Christ had predicted.

Rome was identified with the other Revelation 13 Sea Beast, which God used to carry out His destruction of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17. There are actually no less than THREE beasts described in Revelation - not just two. The "Sea Beast", the "Land Beast", and the "Scarlet Beast".

To me it makes zero sense to not try and interpret any of Revelation 13 via any of Revelation 17. For example. Where in Revelation 13 does it tell us the interpretation of the heads? Does it not tell us that in Revelation 17? Why would none of that be applicable to any of the 7 heads in Revelation 13?

You are right, it is helpful to compare these two passages when it comes to interpreting what those heads are on both the Roman Sea Beast and the Judean Scarlet Beast. You remember, of course, that the angelic interpreter gives us the explanation in Revelation 17 of what those 7 heads on the Scarlet Beast represented. They were intended first of all to represent 7 literal mountains that the harlot, Mystery Babylon sat upon. This was the "great city" Jerusalem, which from time immemorial was built on those 7 mountains of the city (Mount of Olives, Mount Zion, etc.). Scripture describes the city of Jerusalem as being surrounded by these mountains ("As the mountains are round about Jerusalem..." Psalms 125:2) making it a most defensible city from ancient times.

But the other Roman Sea Beast of Revelation 13 also had its own set of 7 heads / mountains that the city of Rome was built upon. It was one of these literal mountains that received a "deadly wound", and which caused those "dwelling on the earth" (those living in the land of Israel) to marvel when that wound to one of those literal mountains in Rome was healed. As of now, I believe this "wound" to one of the literal mountains Rome sat upon was the devastating fire at Rome in AD 64. Nero immediately launched a very expensive rebuilding program for Rome, especially his fabulous "Golden House" with that mammoth, almost 100' tall bronze "Colossus of Nero" statue of himself to decorate the new imperial Golden House villa and its gardens.

We know that in AD 63, Josephus, son of the priest Matthias, made a voyage to Rome and had private audience with the empress Poppaea, who was actually sympathetic to the Jews. Poppaea granted Josephus many gifts, and the release of all but one of the imprisoned priests, for whom Josephus had pleaded their case. This shows the collaboration between the religious leadership in Jerusalem and Rome at the time, just prior to the AD 66 Zealot rebellion against Rome, which caused the reappearance that year of the Judean Scarlet Beast.

The AD 64 fire that gave Rome that "deadly wound" to one of its mountains that was "healed" became an concocted charge leveled against the Christians. Nero blamed the Christians for this disaster, and launched a 42-month persecution of the Christians after that AD 64 fire. This was the Sea Beast's "war" which "overcame the saints" in those days (Revelation 17:5-7).

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, there IS an "about to" in that Revelation 17:8 verse, and in a number of other verses in Revelation as well, as the YLT and other versions acknowledge according to the Greek.

Again, it's not in the manuscripts so any translation that has it has added it themselves. No translation can be above or equal in authority to the original writing.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No translation can be above or equal in authority to the original writing.

Well, nobody has the original scripts as penned by the hands of the prophets or the Apostles themselves. Yet Paul said that Timothy knew the "holy scriptures" from his childhood (2 Timothy 3:15). Those were certainly not the originally written OT autographs which Timothy learned from. The YLT is closer to the original Greek than many other translations. I usually favor that one as well as the Septuagint for my studies. But I also try to read from a variety of translations to get a balanced view of a particular subject in question. The literal translations seem to come the closest to the original languages' intent most of the time.

And there are too many other time indicators in Revelation that pin down the date of its composition to a period prior to AD 70. For example, the tenures of the 7 and 8th "kings of the earth" as "heads" on the Judean Scarlet Beast. That 7th "king" which had not yet come into office yet as John was writing would only last for a "short space" as a high priest of the family of Annas. This pins down a date of Revelation's composition to at least before AD 63, since Ananus, the 7th high priest of the family of Annas, would be deposed by Rome in AD 63 after serving for a mere 3 months. A "short space" for certain.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, nobody has the original scripts as penned by the hands of the prophets or the Apostles themselves.

We have many ancient manuscripts tho. What they say are more accurate than any translation.

And there are too many other time indicators in Revelation that pin down the date of its composition to a period prior to AD 70. For example, the tenures of the 7 and 8th "kings of the earth" as "heads" on the Judean Scarlet Beast. That 7th "king" which had not yet come into office yet as John was writing would only last for a "short space" as a high priest of the family of Annas. This pins down a date of Revelation's composition to at least before AD 63, since Ananus, the 7th high priest of the family of Annas, would be deposed by Rome in AD 63 after serving for a mere 3 months. A "short space" for certain.

Most of the events in Rev have not happened yet.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We have many ancient manuscripts tho. What they say are more accurate than any translation.

But those "ancient manuscripts" also have to be translated for you to benefit from what is written, so what's the difference?

Most of the events in Rev have not happened yet.

How can you say that with any confidence, if you actually don't even believe in the accuracy of the translations from the original languages? You are basing this stated viewpoint strictly on your own perceptions and preferences then. Which you are certainly at liberty to do, but that does not necessarily make it true.

 

[ewq1938]

But those "ancient manuscripts" also have to be translated for you to benefit from what is written, so what's the difference?

Accuracy. Some translations are true to the original meaning while others are not.

How can you say that with any confidence, if you actually don't even believe in the accuracy of the translations from the original languages?

I do not disagree with all translations.

You are basing this stated viewpoint strictly on your own perceptions and preferences then. Which you are certainly at liberty to do, but that does not necessarily make it true.

It's based on history. Most of the events of Rev never yet happened. The beast of Rev 13 commonly called teh AC has not appeared nor done the thing attributed to him in the book, no two prophets slaim and 3.5 days resurrected and risen into heaven etc. Most of it is yet to happen.

 

[3 Resurrections]

It's based on history. Most of the events of Rev never yet happened. The beast of Rev 13 commonly called teh AC has not appeared nor done the thing attributed to him in the book, no two prophets slaim and 3.5 days resurrected and risen into heaven etc. Most of it is yet to happen.

If you are basing your viewpoint on your perceptions of history, then you must not have read enough first-century history yet to make that judgment. The complete sixth trumpet judgment you refer to (Revelation 9:13 - Revelation 11:14) already happened around AD 67/68 with the Idumean assault on Jerusalem, with the murder of the the two former high priests who were trying to maintain order in the city, rife with competing Zealot factions within.

For another thing, the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 is never referred to as the Antichrist in Revelation. That is a common mistaken assumption that has no scripture backing for it.

But to get back to the OP's main point, they began by emphasizing the repetition of disasters described in Revelation as being similar to Joseph's dream interpretations for Pharaoh. Because the dream was doubled to Pharaoh, that meant that the events were absolutely certain to happen, and that "God will SHORTLY bring it to pass" (Genesis 41:32). Wasn't it only seven years of plentiful crops future to that time when the seven lean years actually began for Egypt? That is how long God defined something that He was "SHORTLY" "about to do" (Genesis 41:28, 32).

Switching over to the NT, the triple repetition of the seals, trumpets, and vial judgments gives even more confirmation for how absolutely certain, and also HOW SOON those events were going to take place. John tells us in Revelation 1:1 that the message he was given by Jesus Christ was intended to show the servants of God "things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS". If scripture is consistent, then "SHORTLY" in Revelation 1:1 could also indicate events that would be coming to pass in about seven years, just like Joseph's double dream interpretation.

This "SHORTLY" time reference is also duplicated in Revelation 12:12. John was giving a warning to his readers that Satan had already come down unto them in great wrath, "because he knoweth that he hath but a SHORT TIME." That "short time" Satan had left to operate was then in progress as John was writing, as other NT texts give ample evidence of Satan's infuriated, ramped-up activity in those days.

Even with Satan's greatly increased deception of the nations in those first-century days, Paul gave the Roman believers great encouragement by telling them in Romans 16:20 that "the God of peace shall crush Satan under your feet SHORTLY." Romans was written around AD 60. SHORTLY AFTER THAT YEAR, God would crush Satan under the feet of the believers. Joseph's double dream interpretation gives us the right to interpret this "SHORTLY" prediction of Satan being crushed as coming to pass about seven years from that approximate AD 60 date when Romans was written.

Just in case there was any remaining doubt as to the timing of those future predicted events, John repeatedly emphasized in his last chapter that God was sending a message about "the things which must SHORTLY BE DONE" (Revelation 22:6). Again, to be consistent with Joseph's double dream interpretation, God had established for certain that these events would happen, and they would SHORTLY COME TO PASS...in a time frame comparable to Joseph's prophesied seven years until the lean years began.

 

[ewq1938]

If you are basing your viewpoint on your perceptions of history, then you must not have read enough first-century history yet to make that judgment. The complete sixth trumpet judgment you refer to (Revelation 9:13 - Revelation 11:14) already happened around AD 67/68 with the Idumean assault on Jerusalem, with the murder of the the two former high priests who were trying to maintain order in the city, rife with competing Zealot factions within.

And did they lie dead for 3.5 days then resurrect and rise into heaven in front of their enemies?


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.



Did the events of this verse also take place at that time?

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Yes, Josephus records that earthquake taking place (Wars 4:4 & 5), just like the earthquake in Revelation 11:13. He listed a total of 8,500 dead the next morning as a result of the storm, the earthquake, and the invading Idumean army killing those who were siding with the former high priest Ananus, leader of the moderate party in Jerusalem at the time (similar to the number of 7,000 men who died in the earthquake in Revelation 11:13).

The Idumean nighttime attack during this earthquake and storm included the murder, stripping the bodies, and forbidding a burial for the two former high priests (as in Revelation 11:7-9). These two, Ananus ben Annas and Joshua ben Gamaliel, had been keeping in check the power of the other two more volatile Zealot factions in the city at the time. Once these two former high priest leaders were dead, this eliminated one of the three factions then present in Jerusalem (the 1/3 of men slain in Revelation 9:15), with their murderers standing on their dead bodies and making jokes about them (like the rejoicing done by the murderers of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:10).

In the days following this nighttime Idumean attack, Josephus recorded an additional 12,000 killed by a combination of Idumeans and Zealots getting rid of anyone they suspected of wanting to flee to the Romans for protection. The damage this Idumean attack and the earthquake caused did not wipe out the city - only part of Jerusalem (as in the tenth of the city falling in Revelation 11:13).

Josephus listed four generals in charge of the Idumean invading force (the four "messengers" of Revelation 9:15). Josephus said that these 4 Idumean generals led an army numbering 20,000 (the "two myriads of myriads" of horsemen in Revelation 9:16). The fierce description of these two myriads of horsemen in Revelation 9:17-19 was typical of the war-mongering Idumeans, as Josephus described them.

Some of the testimony of these two former high priests urging a return to reason for their opponents, in order to spare the temple and the nation, is recorded at length in Josephus (part of the 1,260 days of the two witnesses' prophesying in Revelation 11:3). The sackcloth they are depicted as wearing was symbolic of national distress, rather like Mordecai in the book of Esther. Their ability to "turn water to blood" was symbolic of their high priestly activities at the temple's altar.

Quite literally, Josephus records in Wars 5:9, 4-9-410 a drought at Jerusalem during Ananus' and Joshua's time of "witness" to the nation (similar to the "no rain" for the two witnesses' term of 1,260 days in Revelation 11:6). The description of these two witnesses "standing before the God of the earth" is a duplicate of how God describes the special privilege of the high priesthood office (in Ezekiel 44:15, and Zechariah 3:1 and 4:14). Ananus and Joshua were both former high priests, so they fit this description of the two witnesses exactly.

Since all these details of this sixth trumpet judgment in scripture line up with the historical record of this Idumean attack on Jerusalem during that earthquake in AD 67/68, I'm willing to believe that these two were resurrected after those 3-1/2 days, just as scripture says.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, Josephus records that earthquake taking place (Wars 4:4 & 5), just like the earthquake in Revelation 11:13.

I looked. He did not write about an Earthquake in 4:4-5

Josephus: The War of the Jews: Book 4

BOOK IV CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT ONE YEAR. FROM THE SIEGE OF GAMALA TO THE COMING OF TITUS TO BESIEGE JERUSALEM CHAPTER 1 THE SIEGE AND TAKING OF GAMALA.

truthnet.org

 

[Think...]

Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?​

Yes, it absolutely does.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I looked. He did not write about an Earthquake in 4:4-5

Josephus: The War of the Jews: Book 4

BOOK IV CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ABOUT ONE YEAR. FROM THE SIEGE OF GAMALA TO THE COMING OF TITUS TO BESIEGE JERUSALEM CHAPTER 1 THE SIEGE AND TAKING OF GAMALA.

truthnet.org

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Josephus described that earthquake in Wars 4:4.5 (286-287). “…for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightenings, terrible thundering, and amazing bellowing of the earth, that was IN AN EARTHQUAKE. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming.”

The entire disastrous story of the Idumean invasion of Jerusalem was covered in Wars 4:chapters 4-5.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

Thank you. I missed that part.

Since all these details of this sixth trumpet judgment in scripture line up with the historical record of this Idumean attack on Jerusalem during that earthquake in AD 67/68, I'm willing to believe that these two were resurrected after those 3-1/2 days, just as scripture says.

I don' believe two people could resurrect from the dead as described in Rev 11 and it not be recorded since the writing is so very detailed. Also, while an earthquake is mentioned, a storm is not. I don't see any actual matches in the details of Rev 11 to the details found in the writing.