Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?

[shepherdsword]

How can the 7th trump happen at the same time of the 6th seal when no angels has a trumpet until after the 7th seal?

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The seven seals are parenthetical and cover the entire judgement period. There is silence in heaven because Jesus, the saints and the angels have come to earth

 

[DavidPT]

How can the 7th trump happen at the same time of the 6th seal when no angels has a trumpet until after the 7th seal?

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

I'm not understanding your argument here since you are already on record arguing that the 6th seal involves the 7th trumpet. And since I agree that the 6th seal involves the 7th trumpet, which means I wouldn't be arguing what you are in this case, since it would be contradicting what I'm arguing pertaining to the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not understanding your argument here since you are already on record arguing that the 6th seal involves the 7th trumpet.

The 6th seal describes what will happen in the future 7th trump.

The seals cannot be opened at the same time trumpets sound because no trumpet is given to any angel until after the 7th seal was opened.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm not understanding your argument here since you are already on record arguing that the 6th seal involves the 7th trumpet. And since I agree that the 6th seal involves the 7th trumpet, which means I wouldn't be arguing what you are in this case, since it would be contradicting what I'm arguing pertaining to the 6th seal and the 7th trumpet.

He did just argue that the 6th seal and 7th trumpet were overlapping.

So.. if you go through the Old Testament prophets you can connect a few things about Jesus' second coming.

Daniel 11 has Edom, Moab, and Jordan breaking away from the Antichrist after the Abomination of Desolation, when Antichrist goes south into Egypt, Put, and Cush to reign them in (apparently when Antichrist tries to proclaim himself as God the Muslim nations that had been following him initially (probably believing him to be the Mahdi) revolt because the AoD would be the highest form of blasphemy to them).
Obadiah has the day of the Lord happening, and then all of Edom being wiped out, to the last descendant of Esau, for their participation in the invasion of Jerusalem in Daniel 11 (which yes, Antiochus Epiphanes was a picture of, but not the ultimate fulfillment of, Jesus referred to the Abomination of Desolation as a yet future event).

and then Isaiah 63 has Jesus coming back from Edom, His clothes already soaked in the blood of His enemies, similar to Revelation 19, which again I'd point out, that John was witnessing from heaven, not Earth, so the popular imagery of Revelation 19 being the second coming and Jesus riding down from heaven on flying white horses is incorrect. What John saw when the heavens opened up was Jesus already on Earth, on a white horse, covered in the blood of his enemies, going back to Daniel 11, the antichrist, who has now destroyed Egypt and reigned in Libya and Sudan, hears distressing news from the north and east (from the direction of Edom), and returns to Jerusalem.

You may have been taught that Jesus returns, and everything just blows up supernaturally end of the world.
I mean, the Pharisees combined the first and second coming prophecies and assumed they'd all happen at the same time too, just Messiah comes, boom, golden Messianic age.
Reality Messiah came, He ministered, and He died for our sins, and He will come back.

Now with that perspective in mind, understand that the bible actually teaches that Jesus will return and then He will DO things, things that actually take time, there's a lot of things that happen connected to after Christ returns, and it has been an error that many in the Church have assumed that it all happens in an instant.

We know Jesus comes down on the clouds to the Mount of Olives.
but then Jesus is returning from Edom in Isaiah 63.

So it stands to reason that Jesus descended to the Mount of Olives, then went to Edom, and then comes back.
and if you stop seeing Old Testament prophecy as having all been fulfilled in the past, and recognize that a lot of it has to do with the second coming, a picture will start getting painted of a broader campaign.

I know I certainly don't have all the pieces fitting together yet, but I am starting to see a picture at least.

 

[Postvieww]

How can the 7th trump happen at the same time of the 6th seal when no angels has a trumpet until after the 7th seal?

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

The book of Revelation is not in complete chronological order! “ And I saw” in verse 2 does not say and I saw 7 angels given trumpets after the 7th seal. The seals were one vision the trumpets were another the vials were another. The seals, trumpets and vials overlap to some degree all ending with the return of Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

The book of Revelation is not in complete chronological order!

No but huge parts of it are.

“ And I saw” in verse 2 does not say and I saw 7 angels given trumpets after the 7th seal.

Only after the 7th seal is opened do the 7 angels receive their trumpets.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

[Jamdoc]

The book of Revelation is not in complete chronological order! “ And I saw” in verse 2 does not say and I saw 7 angels given trumpets after the 7th seal. The seals were one vision the trumpets were another the vials were another. The seals, trumpets and vials overlap to some degree all ending with the return of Christ.

So you have the 7th seal just being.. nothing
just silence for half an hour
that's pretty anticlimactic don't you think?

 

[ewq1938]

So you have the 7th seal just being.. nothing
just silence for half an hour
that's pretty anticlimactic don't you think?

Except that's exactly what the bible says about it. Why add more into it?

 

[Jamdoc]

Except that's exactly what the bible says about it. Why add more into it?

Weren't you just advocating that the 7th seal is when the 7 trumpets are given to the angels?
I mean that's what I see as the 7th seal, silence and then 7 trumpets given to seven angels.

 

[ewq1938]

Weren't you just advocating that the 7th seal is when the 7 trumpets are given to the angels?

No, quite the opposite.

I mean that's what I see as the 7th seal, silence and then 7 trumpets given to seven angels.

As I have said before, all the seals are completed before any angel is given a trumpet. This proves there is no such thing as a seal, trump and vial happening at the same time.

 

[Jamdoc]

No, quite the opposite.



As I have said before, all the seals are completed before any angel is given a trumpet. This proves there is no such thing as a seal, trump and vial happening at the same time.

But they are given the 7 trumpets after the 7th seal is loosed.
Seals represent something being held back or restrained or kept secret.
The 7th seal restraining the angels from being given the 7 trumpets makes sense, that they would not be used until an appointed time.

Just as the first 6 seals all were restraining something from happening until an appointed time.

if you disconnect the trumpets being given out after the 7th seal is loosed, you have the 7th seal restraining... nothing
keeping secret... nothing.

 

[ewq1938]

But they are given the 7 trumpets after the 7th seal is loosed.
Seals represent something being held back or restrained or kept secret.
The 7th seal restraining the angels from being given the 7 trumpets makes sense, that they would not be used until an appointed time.

Doesn't make any sense to me but my belief is that each seal is just a glimpse of future events in one of the trumps. This is why the 6th seal describes the second coming but that coming does not happen until the 7th trump.

Just as the first 6 seals all were restraining something from happening until an appointed time.

if you disconnect the trumpets being given out after the 7th seal is loosed, you have the 7th seal restraining... nothing
keeping secret... nothing.

Except the 30 min of silence. IMO this silence takes place after one of the trumps.

 

[Jamdoc]

Doesn't make any sense to me but my belief is that each seal is just a glimpse of future events in one of the trumps. This is why the 6th seal describes the second coming but that coming does not happen until the 7th trump.

and that's the problem with modern interpretation not considering the context of when the letter was written.
Paul was not communicating to the Corinthians something that would not be something that could be understood until a book written decades later.
Paul was not referring to the 7th trumpet in Revelation. The materials that Paul would teach from were the Old Testament, and he would have had access to a Gospel account, considering in his letters to the Thessalonians, he uses a lot of information from the Olivet Discourse.
But he didn't have Revelation, and even if he was given special revelation directly, the Corinthians would not have that Revelation and Paul did not explain what the "last trump" was being a 7th trumpet judgement that would be revealed in a book decades later.

So, what was Paul referring to?
Matthew 24

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who sounds the trumpet?
The Son of Man

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Who sounds the trumpet?
God, Jesus, the Son of Man

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Who sounds the trumpet?
the Lord God, Jesus, the Son of Man.
I provided context to show that this is, yes, the Lord appearing in the clouds, even references to His people being taken into the sky, lifted up as the stones of a crown.
Also as a side note, notice that after blowing the trumpet, the Lord goes south... towards Edom. Keep that in mind regarding Obadiah and Isaiah 63.

Now.. Revelation 11

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

"One of these things is not like the others.."
Jesus doesn't blow that trumpet, like the 3 previous examples where it is Jesus who blows the trumpet for the resurrection/rapture
an angel does.

It's not the same, unless you want to say Jesus is an Angel.. which would be troubling

 

[Postvieww]

No but huge parts of it are.




Only after the 7th seal is opened do the 7 angels receive their trumpets.

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Sixth Seal: 1. Great earthquake Revelation 6:12 11:13 16:18

2. Sun Black , Moon Blood Revelation 6:12

3. Stars Fall Revelation 6:13

4. Heaven departed Revelation 6:14

5. Mountains , Islands moved Revelation 6:14 16:20

6. Men hide from the face of Him that sits on the throne. Revelation 6:16

7. His Wrath Revelation 6:16 11:18 16:1

Seventh Trumpet: 1. Mystery finished Revelation 10:7 Revelation16:17

2. Great earthquake Revelation 11;13 6:12 16:18

3. Kingdoms of this world become kingdoms of Christ Revelation 11:15

4. Wrath is come Revelation 11:18 6:16 16:1

5. Dead are judged Revelation 11:18

6. Rewards given to saints and prophets Revelation 11:18

7. Lightnings, and voices,and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great
hail.Revelation 11:19 16:18

7 Vials: 1.Wrath of God (all 7 vials) Revelation 16:1 11:18 6:16

2. It is done Revelation 16:17 10:7

3. Voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
Revelation 16:18 11:19

4. Every island fled away, and the mountains were not found
Revelation 16:20 6:14

5. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; Revelation 16:21
11:19

There is absolutely overlap shown here. The sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the 7th Vial (all vials are in rapid succession) all end with the return of Christ. Every single detail of each event are not mentioned in all 3 but just take note of how many are in each event.

 

[Postvieww]

As I have said before, all the seals are completed before any angel is given a trumpet. This proves there is no such thing as a seal, trump and vial happening at the same time.

You have not proved "all the seals are completed before any angel is given a trumpet". I believe you have assumed it but not proven it.

The 7th seal only reveals a scene in heaven. The text does not say it releases the trumpets you have assumed that to be true.

If you try to make Revelation all chronological you will have more problems than you can dig out of.

 

[Postvieww]

IMO this silence takes place after one of the trumps.

From the text show how you arrive at that conclusion? It just is not there!

 

[DavidPT]

There is absolutely overlap shown here. The sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the 7th Vial (all vials are in rapid succession) all end with the return of Christ. Every single detail of each event are not mentioned in all 3 but just take note of how many are in each event.

What about the 6 trumpets that precede the 7th trumpet? What about the 6 vials that precede the 7th vial?

As to the seals, right or wrong, I tend to view them as the over all outline of events where one thing leads to another thing, and then when we get to the 6th seal we are at the end of these events. Which then means to me that the first trumpet isn't after the events recorded in the 6th seal. Nor is the first vial poured out during the events involving the first trumpet. The vials of wrath pertain to the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord follows after great tribulation.

For example, the following occurs during the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


How could that be meaning during any of the vials of wrath? Doesn't this alone prove that the vials of wrath are post 6th trumpet?

Then there is this as well.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.


This is obviously meaning after the 2Ws finish their testimonies. Does it sound like the saints would be being overcome if the vials of wrath were in progress at the time?

It is reasons like above that I myself conclude that all 7 vials of wrath are poured out during the 7th trumpet. Because it doesn't make sense that they are being poured out during any of the 6 trumpets if during the 6th trumpet, for example, they that dwell upon the earth are making merry, and that during the 6th trumpet the saints are being overcome.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


For example. If we have this overlapping the first trumpet this indicates that the 42 month reign of the beast precedes the time of the first trumpet. Which then contradicts the time of the 6th trumpet, because if the beast has already been reigning 42 months before the time of the first trumpet, why isn't he making war with the 2Ws while they are giving their testimonies?

One is to believe, though Revelation 13:7 records that the beast makes war with the saints, and that if this is running in parallel with the 1260 days the 2Ws are testifying, that the beast is making war with all the other saints, just not these 2 saints, the 2Ws? This seems to tell me that there are 2 time periods involved. 1260 days for the 2Ws followed by 42 months for the beast. And if so, this clearly means that the first vial can't be overlapping the first trumpet. The first vial is being poured out on those worshiping his image. Obviously, that is meaning at the end of it's 42 month reign. The first trumpet is obviously not at the end of it's reign. It's not even reigning yet, during the time of the first trumpet.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Let's compare two texts:
Ge 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

We know with some certainty that Pharaoh's dream's combined two different sets of symbols to signify the same thing. The 7 fat and 7 lean cows signified the same famine as the 7 fat and 7 weak wheat sheaves. What if this is true of the trumpet and vial judgements?

Rv 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

It is not just your imagination - these two texts truly are part of the same pattern in scripture. When God mentions something not only twice, but three times in succession, it truly does represent that the events spoken of are certain to come to pass, and that it will also be SOON in the near future when they come to pass. I notice nobody is picking up on this SOON element in your original post.

Back in 2015, I gave a comment on a post from another website called "IN THREES" where I brought up multiple examples in scripture of how God used the emphasis on a triple repetition of a prediction to indicate just how SOON it was going to take place in the near future.

When we make the comparison of God's scriptural pattern of triple repetition to the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials of judgment, this tells us that the culmination of these seals, trumpets, and vials was SOON to take place in John's generation.

I am in agreement with those above who have recognized a "recapitulation" pattern between the seals, trumpets, and vials. There is a chronological order of events within each of these 3 groups, but the 3 groups themselves are not sequential to each other. Each of these 3 groups culminate with the same point in time, but their various events leading up to that concluding point are not identical with the other 2 groups.

 

[Postvieww]

For example, the following occurs during the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


How could that be meaning during any of the vials of wrath? Doesn't this alone prove that the vials of wrath are post 6th trumpet?

We have wrath in the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the vials are that wrath,

 

[DavidPT]

We have wrath in the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet and the vials are that wrath,

Does this mean that you agree that all 7 vials are poured out during the 7th trumpet, exactly what I'm arguing? Some interpreters think, for example, that during the first trumpet, the first vial is also poured out, and that during the 2nd trumpet, the 2nd vial is also poured out, etc. I don't see that being logical myself since the first vial involves being poured out on those that have the mark, and are worshiping his image. And if the first vial is meanig during the first trumpet, this indicates that they already have the mark and are already worshiping his image prior to the time of the first trumpet, since it would be unreasonable to be pouring out vials on ppl who are not even doing those things yet.