Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?

[Douggg]

Why can't the 6th seal involve all of the vials? Don't all of the vials involve His wrath? And does not the 6th seal indicate that the great day of His wrath is come?

The 6th seal indicates the time of the wrath of the Lamb has come. The wrath of the Lamb is the justice sought by the great tribulation martyrs in 5th seal. The wrath of the Lamb will be specifically for that purpose. It will be against men.


Regarding the 7 vials containing the wrath of God... The wrath of God is when God has finally had enough of Satan with the last straw being when the beast kills the two witnesses. Then, when the 7th trumpet sounds, God has Satan cast down to earth, as God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom called Babylon the Great. The vials of God's wrath begin when Satan and his kingdom is cast down to earth for the time/times/half times. It will be against Satan and his kingdom.

The last vial near the end of Satan's kingdom, once the kings of the earth are preparing for the final battle on the Great Day of God Almighty, is the 7th vial in Revelation 16:16-19, which says...

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

Pretty hard to do when there is no coming done at all.

If Jesus fails to come when the sign happens, you claim He will not come at all?

It is a thief in the night moment. The thief is usually involved. You claim the thief is not involved, and you are wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

Based on what ?


How do you know how many people die because of what the seven thunders said - since John was told not to write down what the seven thunders said ? In Revelation 10:3-4.

How do you know to write down a bunch of lengths of time?


If the Seals are 1/4, the Trumpets 1/3, the next amount is 1/2. At Armageddon it is 1/1, 100%.

The Church is raptured, not killed. Are there 2 billion Christians? Could there be 3 to 4 billion right before the Second Coming? Who knows?

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


What some of us have noted is this, where the coming in verse 15 is placed in this chapter. It is placed between the 6th and 7th vial. But if the idea is, that this coming precedes any of the vials, why then is it recorded between the 6th and 7th vial, thus giving the impression, as of the 6th vial, the coming recorded in verse 15 hasn't occured yet, that it occurs during the 7th vial? Which then makes perfect sense of the 5th vial, for example, since that vial records that they repented not, where that obviously means repenting is at least an option, except they fail to do it. And that it doesn't make sense to some of us that repenting could still be an option after Christ has literally bodily returned.

And since there is also a Prewrath view, what I'm arguing here appears to maybe even debunk that view as well. Unless one wants to argue, that vial 5, for example, this is not related to God's wrath, or that one still has the option to repent after Christ has bodily returned.

The Second Coming, thief in the night moment, was at the 6th Seal.

This is normally in parenthesis. It is the rhetorical answer to the rhetorical question here:

"And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

 

[Timtofly]

The wrath of God is when God has finally had enough of Satan with the last straw being when the beast kills the two witnesses. Then, when the 7th trumpet sounds, God has Satan cast down to earth, as God begins dismantling Satan's kingdom called Babylon the Great. The vials of God's wrath begin when Satan and his kingdom is cast down to earth for the time/times/half times. It will be against Satan and his kingdom.

This makes no sense. If God has had enough and the last straw, why is Satan loosed after 1,000 years?

The vials are not spread out over 3.5 years. Satan is cast of of heaven, because there is no longer any on earth for Satan to accuse before God night and day. When Satan is cast to earth at the 7th Trumpet, one of two things will happen.


Either Satan will be bound for 1,000 years, or Satan will be allowed to set up His AoD for 42 months, the third woe. If Satan is bound at this point, there will not be a third woe. If that was the last straw, Satan would not be handed the throne in Jerusalem and rule over his Babylonian kingdom for 42 months. Instead he would be cast into the LOF.

The 2 witnesses are the only church/redeemed on earth for these 42 months. Any one accepting the Atonement do do by having their head chopped off. This goes way beyond the GT. This is utter abomination and desolation of the kind only found in sheol, the pit. People killing, and are being killed. People are receiving the mark, and being removed from the Lamb's book of life.

Jesus and the 144k do not co-reign with Satan. They were on earth during the first 2 woes. But this time of AoD is way worse than the GT. Morality and religion are being destroyed as symbolic of the woman riding the beast is destroyed by the beast.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

This is the worse humanity can get, totally abandoning all decency, and then destroying that decency after all is said and done.

The 2 witnesses are killed at the end of Satan's 42 months. Those 3.5 days they lay there is when the vials are poured out.

 

[Sal Mercurio]

The Trumpets and Vials are not the same. If you turn to the 7 Trumpets, you will read that it is Jesus who opens the seals followed by the Trumpets. Note that on the 6th Trumpet sound 4 angels are "released" at the great Euphrates River. In other words the 6th Trumpet blast was the command to the 4 angels to charge.

If you now turn to the 6th Vial at the same great river, Euphrates the 6th Vial alone without accompaniment "pours out" his Vial on the great river to dry it up. This angles mission was to dry up the river. The mission of the Trumpets was to kill one third of the earths population. In my opinion there is nothing alike in these two scenario's.

However, I will say that since both weapons of war, the 6th Trumpet and 6th Vial are at the Euphrates and meet at exactly the same time at the same place then it tells me they are acting as one for the same purpose..to move the battle ground across the Euphrates. They are however doing and manipulating different things and they are appointed and set apart in their activities which in my opinion, these are different angels carrying out different missions for one purpose.

Know this also. The reason our Lord sends out these angles at this particular time is found in Jesus own words; "If I had not cut the days short, even the elect would have been deceived". Jesus here is coming to fight those who are persecuting and exterminating His body on this earth who have not taken the number. The persecution begins at the First Trumpet sound and ends at the Sixth Trumpet blast which occurs at Armageddon and Jesus ends the madness in one day. Afterward, the Millennium on the earth and Jesus will rule the nations, what's left of them, for 1000 years.

 

[Douggg]

This makes no sense. If God has had enough and the last straw, why is Satan loosed after 1,000 years?

Satan will be freed for a short amount of time, but he will not have his own kingdom, and he will not be a terror like he will be in the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

The Trumpets and Vials are not the same. If you turn to the 7 Trumpets, you will read that it is Jesus who opens the seals followed by the Trumpets. Note that on the 6th Trumpet sound 4 angels are "released" at the great Euphrates River. In other words the 6th Trumpet blast was the command to the 4 angels to charge.

If you now turn to the 6th Vial at the same great river, Euphrates the 6th Vial alone without accompaniment "pours out" his Vial on the great river to dry it up. This angles mission was to dry up the river. The mission of the Trumpets was to kill one third of the earths population. In my opinion there is nothing alike in these two scenario's.

However, I will say that since both weapons of war, the 6th Trumpet and 6th Vial are at the Euphrates and meet at exactly the same time at the same place then it tells me they are acting as one for the same purpose..to move the battle ground across the Euphrates. They are however doing and manipulating different things and they are appointed and set apart in their activities which in my opinion, these are different angels carrying out different missions for one purpose.

Know this also. The reason our Lord sends out these angles at this particular time is found in Jesus own words; "If I had not cut the days short, even the elect would have been deceived". Jesus here is coming to fight those who are persecuting and exterminating His body on this earth who have not taken the number. The persecution begins at the First Trumpet sound and ends at the Sixth Trumpet blast which occurs at Armageddon and Jesus ends the madness in one day. Afterward, the Millennium on the earth and Jesus will rule the nations, what's left of them, for 1000 years.

Welcome to the eschatology forum, Sal.

 

[DavidPT]

Satan will be freed for a short amount of time, but he will not have his own kingdom, and he will not be a terror like he will be in the great tribulation.

Even though I'm not an Amil, at least not yet anyway, I have to wonder, in regards to satan knowing he has a short time, thus comes down to the earth having great wrath, how that makes sense if at the end of this great wrath he is bound rather than cast into the LOF. What about when he is loosed after the thousand years? Doesn't that also involve a short time? Will he not be wrathful then as well since the next thing on the agenda would be the LOF for him? Though, there are numerous things that still convince me of Premil, it is things like this that seem to fit Amil better than Premil.

 

[oikonomia]

Let's compare two texts:
Ge 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

We know with some certainty that Pharaoh's dream's combined two different sets of symbols to signify the same thing. The 7 fat and 7 lean cows signified the same famine as the 7 fat and 7 weak wheat sheaves. What if this is true of the trumpet and vial judgements?

Rv 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What if the visions of the trumpets and vials are the same thing? Lets compare:

1st Trumpet=hail and fire cast upon the earth
1st Vail= poured upon the earth

2nd Trumpet= a great mountain cast into the sea (1/3 killed by blood)
2nd Vail= poured upon the sea (every living soul killed by bloody water)

3rd Trumpet=a great star fell upon the fresh water (1/3 bitter waters killed many
3rd Vial= Wormwood cast on the fresh water (all fresh water becomes as blood)

4th Trumpet = darkness on1/3 of the moon, stars and Sun
4th Vial= men scorched by fire from the Sun

5th Trumpet= Angel of the abyss/smoke from the abyss brings darkness
5th Vial- the seat of the beast covered with Darkness

6th Trumpet=200,000 horsemen from the Euphrates
6th Vial= The kings of the east invade from the Euphrates

7h Trumpet the resurrection of the dead and the Lord's return and an earthquake
7th Vial = voices, lightning and a great earthquake

Could it be that the Trumpet judgments give a global perspective (hence 1/3) and the Vial judgements give a middle east perspective (hence ALL) ?
I understand that there are some details that appear to contradict this. However we must consider this. God sent a mighty angel in Rev 10 that raised his hand and SWORE that the mystery of God would be finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Yet we only hear it is finished at the 7th vial.
Thoughts?

Chapters up to 11 are roughly one half of the revelation.
Chapters 12 through 22 are a revisting of the previous events with a particular focus on the last 3 and 1/2 years.

Yes, the book is the large scroll and then the small scroll.
Without this understanding the sequence of events is very confusion because of some overlap and some repetition.

The commentary in the Recovery Version published by Living Stream Ministry are the most helpful I have ever seen on this difficult book.
www.recoveryversion.org

 

[Timtofly]

Even though I'm not an Amil, at least not yet anyway, I have to wonder, in regards to satan knowing he has a short time, thus comes down to the earth having great wrath, how that makes sense if at the end of this great wrath he is bound rather than cast into the LOF. What about when he is loosed after the thousand years? Doesn't that also involve a short time? Will he not be wrathful then as well since the next thing on the agenda would be the LOF for him? Though, there are numerous things that still convince me of Premil, it is things like this that seem to fit Amil better than Premil.

Satan being cast out of heaven is totally opposite of being released from the pit. They are from totally different directions.

 

[DavidPT]

Satan being cast out of heaven is totally opposite of being released from the pit. They are from totally different directions.

This is true, which gives more reasons to believe that the thousand years fit after the 2nd coming, regardless that it might not make sense to me why satan knows that he has a short time, thus has great wrath, and that at the end of this great wrath this leads to him being bound rather than being cast into the LOF. Before satan is evicted from heaven according to Revelation 12, this means that the thousand years can't fit before he is even evicted, but must fit after he has been evicted. Yet, notice what he does once he has been kicked out of heaven and finds himself cast to the earth.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Does any of that even remotely sound like what is depicted in the verses below?

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Of course not, but apparently Amils must think so.

 

[Timtofly]

Does any of that even remotely sound like what is depicted in the verses below?

It does not match anything in Revelation 20. Not prior to, nor after the 1,000 years.

 

[Sal Mercurio]

Welcome to the eschatology forum, Sal.

Thank you, and greetings Douggg

 

[Soyeong]

Let's compare two texts:
Ge 41:32
And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

We know with some certainty that Pharaoh's dream's combined two different sets of symbols to signify the same thing. The 7 fat and 7 lean cows signified the same famine as the 7 fat and 7 weak wheat sheaves. What if this is true of the trumpet and vial judgements?

Rv 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

What if the visions of the trumpets and vials are the same thing? Lets compare:

1st Trumpet=hail and fire cast upon the earth
1st Vail= poured upon the earth

2nd Trumpet= a great mountain cast into the sea (1/3 killed by blood)
2nd Vail= poured upon the sea (every living soul killed by bloody water)

3rd Trumpet=a great star fell upon the fresh water (1/3 bitter waters killed many
3rd Vial= Wormwood cast on the fresh water (all fresh water becomes as blood)

4th Trumpet = darkness on1/3 of the moon, stars and Sun
4th Vial= men scorched by fire from the Sun

5th Trumpet= Angel of the abyss/smoke from the abyss brings darkness
5th Vial- the seat of the beast covered with Darkness

6th Trumpet=200,000 horsemen from the Euphrates
6th Vial= The kings of the east invade from the Euphrates

7h Trumpet the resurrection of the dead and the Lord's return and an earthquake
7th Vial = voices, lightning and a great earthquake

Could it be that the Trumpet judgments give a global perspective (hence 1/3) and the Vial judgements give a middle east perspective (hence ALL) ?
I understand that there are some details that appear to contradict this. However we must consider this. God sent a mighty angel in Rev 10 that raised his hand and SWORE that the mystery of God would be finished at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Yet we only hear it is finished at the 7th vial.
Thoughts?

The Book of Revelation forms a complex chiastic pattern that does need repeat itself.

 

[shepherdsword]

The Book of Revelation forms a complex chiastic pattern that does need repeat itself.

Revelation is actually a collection of different visions. We have the vision of the Lord in chapter 1. We have the vision of the churches in 2-3. We have the vision of the Father in 4. We have the vision of the lamb in 5 and opening the seals in 6-8. The 7 trumpets in 8-11. We are told in 10(with an oath) that the mystery is complete at the 7th trumpets(global perspective) and thus it ends because the 3 woes are complete.The 7 vials are just a repeat from a middle eastern perspective. In 12 we have the parenetical vision of the church, the dragon and the manchild. in 13 we have the parenetical vision of the two beasts. In 14 we have the parenetical vision of the 144,000, the 3 preaching angels and the two harvests. 15 preps us for the vials and 16 shows us the vials. 17 shows us the mystery of the beast and the great harlot that rides it. 18 gives us the destruction of Babylon. 19 the wedding supper and 2nd coming. 20 the millennial kingdom and the GWT judgement.21 and 22 give us the world to come.

 

[Soyeong]

Revelation is actually a collection of different visions. We have the vision of the Lord in chapter 1. We have the vision of the churches in 2-3. We have the vision of the Father in 4. We have the vision of the lamb in 5 and opening the seals in 6-8. The 7 trumpets in 8-11. We are told in 10(with an oath) that the mystery is complete at the 7th trumpets(global perspective) and thus it ends because the 3 woes are complete.The 7 vials are just a repeat from a middle eastern perspective. In 12 we have the parenetical vision of the church, the dragon and the manchild. in 13 we have the parenetical vision of the two beasts. In 14 we have the parenetical vision of the 144,000, the 3 preaching angels and the two harvests. 15 preps us for the vials and 16 shows us the vials. 17 shows us the mystery of the beast and the great harlot that rides it. 18 gives us the destruction of Babylon. 19 the wedding supper and 2nd coming. 20 the millennial kingdom and the GWT judgement.21 and 22 give us the world to come.

Many of the books of the Bible form complex chiastic patterns. For example, the book of Genesis is one giant chiasm that is composed of 81 smaller chiasm, which can be divided into halves, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, eighths, ninths, tenths, or eighteenths, and each part of each of those fractions will form its chiasm.

 

[shepherdsword]

Many of the books of the Bible form complex chiastic patterns. For example, the book of Genesis is one giant chiasm that is composed of 81 smaller chiasm, which can be divided into halves, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, eighths, ninths, tenths, or eighteenths, and each part of each of those fractions will form its chiasm.

please provide some example if this in Genesis

 

[Soyeong]

please provide some example if this in Genesis

For example, the disaster of Noah's Flood of there being to much water is mirrored by the sister of Joseph's famine of there being too little water, which is also mirrored at a different level by the famine of when Abraham went down from Egypt.

 

[3 Resurrections]

During John's generation he said this of the beast---is not--and that it was to ascend out of the pit. Nothing requires that the beast has to ascend out of the pit during John's generation.

Yes, it does.

If you read this verse about the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast in the literal versions, it gives us the timing for this Scarlet Beast's reappearance. Revelation 17:8 in the YLT reads this way: "The beast that thou didst see: it WAS, and IT IS NOT; and IT IS ABOUT TO COME UP OUT OF THE ABYSS, AND TO GO AWAY TO DESTRUCTION..."

Both the reappearance AND THE DESTRUCTION of this Scarlet Beast was "ABOUT TO" happen in the experience of those John was writing to. This Scarlet Beast would not last long at all after it had made its next appearance - in John's time.

There is ample internal evidence within the book of Revelation to date it quite precisely. It was written sometime between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - no later than the AD 60 calamitous earthquake that came to the city of Laodicea. That self-satisfied city and its inhabitants was about to have God's judgment passed upon it, which is why John wrote a warning to the Laodicean church members, just before the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake occurred.