Does the Book of Revelation repeat itself?

[Douggg]

Jesus remains to open the 7th seal and remains in heaven for many centuries before the 7th trump announces his return. This is of course a future event.

The seals are what binds the book closed to know what is in it. Those seals have already been opened back when John was taken in the spirit to heaven, to know what is in the book - which we all have been reading about.

The events though, revealed when the seals were opened, have yet to take place.

 

[Jamdoc]

I'd be surprised if even one person agrees with that. It's quite clear ALL the trumps sound before Jesus returns and the GT does take place during the 6th trump because Rev 11 tells us how the 6th/2nd woe ends and the 7th/3rd woe shortly happens and the two prophets of Rev 11 die in the GT period.

So here you're going to tell me that at the 7th seal, that chapters and verses aren't Inspired so you disconnect those things

but you're going to think that the 2 witnesses are Chronologically after the 6th trumpet?

When they ordered the chapter break in 10 they really botched up.
Revelation 11's first half is more explanation, and is parenthetical.

there are not 3.5 years between the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet. What is being explained is what has been happening before the 6th seal.

Kinda like how Babylon is explained in Revelation 17, Babylon didn't become the world capital after the 7 vials, that was way before, before the midpoint.

the flow at the end of chapter 10 flows straight into the first half of Revelation 11
as Revelation 10 is Parenthetical so it continues into the first half of Chapter 11.

it is when they say the two woes are past that Chronology is restored.
Because remember, in chapter 10, the Angel is explaining when the 7th trumpet is sounding that's the end of the mystery of God.

6th seal, great earthquake, and I propose resurrection and rapture.
the two witnesses in Revelation 11, great earthquake, are resurrected, and raptured.

are you going to have 2 resurrections and raptures?

 

[Douggg]

So here you're going to tell me that at the 7th seal, that chapters and verses aren't Inspired so you disconnect those things

but you're going to think that the 2 witnesses are Chronologically after the 6th trumpet?

When they ordered the chapter break in 10 they really botched up.
Revelation 11's first half is more explanation, and is parenthetical.

there are not 3.5 years between the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet. What is being explained is what has been happening before the 6th seal.

Kinda like how Babylon is explained in Revelation 17, Babylon didn't become the world capital after the 7 vials, that was way before, before the midpoint.

the flow at the end of chapter 10 flows straight into the first half of Revelation 11
as Revelation 10 is Parenthetical so it continues into the first half of Chapter 11.

it is when they say the two woes are past that Chronology is restored.
Because remember, in chapter 10, the Angel is explaining when the 7th trumpet is sounding that's the end of the mystery of God.

6th seal, great earthquake, and I propose resurrection and rapture.
the two witnesses in Revelation 11, great earthquake, are resurrected, and raptured.

are you going to have 2 resurrections and raptures?

It is a shame that you guys don't make time line charts - that give a comprehensive view of how events fit together - rather than the complicated narrations which get so bogged down so as to be a failure in communication - for lack of a single comprehensive view that a chart has.

 

[Jamdoc]

It is a shame that you guys don't make time line charts - that give a comprehensive view of how events fit together - rather than the complicated narrations which get so bogged down so as to be a failure in communication - for lack of a single comprehensive view that a chart has.

I just have no skill with graphics or art of any kind.

that and.. because my view also incorporates the old testament prophetic books, it can be difficult to sort all of them into any kind of timeline. I can say when some events are chronological relative to each other, but not chronological relative to every single prophetic event to put it in a definitive order.
like I can say Obadiah 1 is after the 6th/7th seals but could not place it in order within the trumpets and vials.
There's no time marker aside from the Day of the Lord, and I suppose that Jesus is on His way back from Edom before Revelation 19.

 

[Douggg]

I just have no skill with graphics or art of any kind.

Then try to put the sequence of events in order as an outline, in a narration that does not skip around.

Such as...

Pre-70th week
1. the ten kings come to power
2. the little horn come to power over them
3. Gog/Magog takes place
4. the little horn becomes the prince who shall come
5. the prince who shall come is anointed the King of Israel, to become the Antichrist

The 70th week begins
6. the Antichrist confirms the mt sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle of Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Day 1 of the 70th week begins.
7. the two witnesses show up and begin witnessing and prophesying.
8. three years thereabouts goes by, and the Antichrist suddenly commits the ToD act
9. reveals himself to be the man of sin
10. War breaks out, and God has the man of sin assassinated
11. He is given a open casket funeral.
12. His soul goes to hell, but God does not let him rest there, brings him back to life.
13. The spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast, comes out of the bottomless pit to possess him. Now the person is the beast.
14. He is sits up in his casket -alive - the world is dumbfounded.
15. He claims to have overcome death.
16. Satan empowers him.

The great tribulation begins
17. the false prophet has an image of the beast made, and placed on the temple mount, the AoD. The great tribulation begins. 1335 days before Jesus returns.
18. the Jews begin to flee to the mountains, as the two witnesses battle the beast for 75 days, with the plagues of the first four trumpets.
19. on day 1260 the beast kills the two witnesses.
20. the world celebrates for 3 1/2 days, their deaths.
21. God brings the two witnesses back to life. They ascend to heaven.
22. The 7th trumpet sounds.
23. God begins taking the kingdoms of this earth out from under Satan's mystical kingdom of Babylon the great, by dismantling and destroying it.
24. Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the second heaven.
25. Satan is furious, a terror, woe to the inhabitors of the sea and earth, the third woe.
26. Satan is given the keys to the bottomless pit and opens it.
27. the flesh tormenting locust creatures, torment them without the seal of God for 5 months.
28. the vials of God's wrath are poured out during Satan's remaining time/times/half time
29. there becomes a crisis over oil availability. The nations of the east, north, south attack the beast, king of the west, headquartered in Jerusalem, to free up the oil. The battles of Daniel 11:40-44.
30. the sixth seal event suddenly takes place. The sign of the Son of man in heaven, Jesus before the throne of God sickle in hand, to avenge the deaths and persecution of the great tribulation martyrs.
31. the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon intent to make war on Jesus, and take half of Jerusalem as hostage, raping the women in Jerusalem.
32. the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out and the cities around the world fall in the global earthquake and great hail.

Jesus returns, His Second Coming
33. Jesus descends to earth with the armies of heaven, the saints and the angels, in great glory and power. The mount of olives split in half as Jesus stands on it, the hostages escape through the valley created.
34. The AoD statue image goes up in flames turned to ashes. Exposing Satan for all to see, the great deceiver and father of lies.
35. The beast and the false prophet cast alive into the lake of fire.
36. The armies and the kings of the earth slain by Jesus speaking. Their flesh consumed while they are standing, their eyes receding in the sockets, and their tongues in their mouths.
37. A lone angel comes down from heaven, binds Satan in chains, and casts Satan into the bottomless pit, to be a terror no more.

 

[Blog00Mike00]

Yes absolutely without a doubt. Revelation refers / shows the very end a few times. It paints pictures or vignettes, picture windows to the very end, and goes back. Experts differ on it's patterns, but look for references of the end. The book of Daniel in it's prophetic sections such as chapter 7 does the same. Carefully read Daniel 7: and you will see evidence of this. Other OT Prophetic Books likewise do the same.

 

[Blog00Mike00]

It is a shame that you guys don't make time line charts - that give a comprehensive view of how events fit together - rather than the complicated narrations which get so bogged down so as to be a failure in communication - for lack of a single comprehensive view that a chart has.




View attachment 323235






View attachment 323232





View attachment 323233

Nice charts

 

[Blog00Mike00]

Looks good. But it's 6:00am here, and I have been up all night, and can't think. I'll look it over more after I have slept.

Hitler was a main Fulfilment In Type for a study of his character as to his explosive side, and false claims that Providence ( his way of describing false divine power, ) were what made his alleged destiny possible, if one wants to contemplate his character. And his false conquering while at peace, not declared war, from March 1936 to September 1939 - Not to mention his years of intrigue before, So Hitler is the perfect model for what he and his times will be like to an extent. He will have intrigue before he is revealed as the Antichrist - Where you pick up with what his times will be like, and then his intrigues begin to unfold. Though Hitler will not be an exact match for exact events, he still will suffice as a good Type in so many ways - including for when he reveals Satan's hatred for the Jews ( But of course thru different sets of events. )

 

[Postvieww]

except the 7th seal dispenses the trumpets, and the 6th seal says the wrath is come.

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. The text doesn’t say the 7th seal dispenses anything you assume that because verse 2 says he saw 7 angels. Verse 1 ends John’s vision of the seals and verse 2 starts his vision of the trumpets.

 

[Postvieww]

The 6th seal and all the seals are prophecies of future events.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I believe at least the first 4 seals have already been opened and maybe we are living in the fifth right now.

 

[Postvieww]

It was proven.



I said no such thing. The 7th seal does not release the trumps.



This is another strawman fallacy. Rev is chronological in places and not in other places. The chronology jumps around often.

As I have said before, all the seals are completed before any angel is given a trumpet. This proves there is no such thing as a seal, trump and vial happening at the same time.

If I was unclear I apologize. The above statement is what you have not proved.Seals, trumpets and vials do overlap to some degree all ending in the return of Christ.

 

[Postvieww]

So what's the picture painted here?
That it will be normal for sinners up until the day that Jesus comes back, but the righteous will be mocked and persecuted. Both Noah and Lot tried to warn people but they were mocked.
They were also both taken away to safety just before the wrath of God started, not at the end of it, but just before it started. They did however have to endure persecution up to that point.
The wrath of God began the same day they were taken to safety.

I believe you have misunderstood Luke 17. Those taken are not taken to safety! 36 [There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.] 37 And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body [is], thither will the eagles also be gathered together. Where the eagles are gathered is not a place of protection it is a place of destruction! Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

[Jamdoc]

I believe you have misunderstood Luke 17. Those taken are not taken to safety! 36 [There shall be two men in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.] 37 And they answering say unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Where the body [is], thither will the eagles also be gathered together. Where the eagles are gathered is not a place of protection it is a place of destruction! Matthew 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Noah and Lot were taken to safety.

 

[Postvieww]

Noah and Lot were taken to safety.

And everyone else was taken away by the flood. They Ask Jesus where and He did not say to safety. Birds eating dead flesh is not a place of safety.

 

[Jamdoc]

And everyone else was taken away by the flood. They Ask Jesus where and He did not say to safety. Birds eating dead flesh is not a place of safety.

Not the point and isn't even the verses I'm referring to. I'm referring to the examples of Noah and Lot.

 

[shepherdsword]

All seals are opened before the first trump sounds. When the last trump sounds, the vials will be poured.

The problem with setting up this interpretation is that it ignores 2 things. One is that God sent an angel to swear that at the 7th trump the mystery would be finished. If you look at what happens at the 7th you see the dead judged and rewarded. The next thing is that it ignores the fact that the 3 woes are also completed at the 7th trump. this means the vials should be already poured out as well, since if they weren't, the woes would not be finished. This contradicts the rigid chronological interpretation that I used to also subscribe to. I see why you hold it brother, because I held to the same concept for decades. Try to step outside the box for a moment and look at it from a different perspective. Now...it may be that you are correct. It's just that I ran into a few problems with this when I once held to it.

 

[shepherdsword]

That appears to be a reasonable way to put it. I tend to then agree.



But what about when this half hour meant ends? Shouldn't that mean heaven is once again occupied? Otherwise, wouldn't the silence in heaven be neverending if the initial reason for the silence is that Jesus, the saints and the angels have come to earth? Does this mean they return 30 minutes later in order for the silence in heaven to end?

I have heard the theory you are proposing before. I don't know if it explains it or not since the text indicates the silence is for about half an hour. And once again, the fact this half hour has to end, this should mean this silence has ended when this half hour meant expires. So, what ended it if what started it was Jesus, the saints and the angels having come to earth, thus vacated heaven 30 minutes earlier?

That appears to be a reasonable way to put it. I tend to then agree.



But what about when this half hour meant ends? Shouldn't that mean heaven is once again occupied? Otherwise, wouldn't the silence in heaven be neverending if the initial reason for the silence is that Jesus, the saints and the angels have come to earth? Does this mean they return 30 minutes later in order for the silence in heaven to end?

I have heard the theory you are proposing before. I don't know if it explains it or not since the text indicates the silence is for about half an hour. And once again, the fact this half hour has to end, this should mean this silence has ended when this half hour meant expires. So, what ended it if what started it was Jesus, the saints and the angels having come to earth, thus vacated heaven 30 minutes earlier?

I am thinking that perhaps it only takes 30 minutes to subdue all the nations. Once they are then the silence ends. Does that answer your question or I am misunderstanding it?

 

[DavidPT]

but you're going to think that the 2 witnesses are Chronologically after the 6th trumpet?

The 6th trumpet obviously involves the time of the 2Ws if the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, and that once the following below happens to the 2Ws, we are then told the 2nd woe is past.

Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

This is where the events involving the 6th trumpet begin. Ch 10 is parenthetical, like you already pointed out. Ch 11, though some of it too is parenthetical in portions, not all of it is, though. Obviously, the 1260 days they prophesy, this has to fit somewhere. And that the following indicates it fits during the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


Verse 14 undeniably proves that the time of the 2Ws, that it involves the 6th trumpet. Does not verse 13 say---And the same hour was there a great earthquake? The same hour as what? How can it not be this? And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And does not verse 14 say---The second woe is past? Meaning the events involving the 6th trumpet. If the 2Ws are called to heaven, and that during that same hour there was a great earthquake, and that we are then told that the 2nd woe is past, it is ludricrous for anyone to insist that the the time of the 2Ws that this does not involve the 6th trumpet.

By you putting all the trumpets after the trib of those days, your interpretation, whether you realize it or not, is putting, not only the time of the 2Ws, after the great trib, but also the time of the beast and it's42 month reign, after the trib as well. The time of the 2Ws come first, followed by the time of the beast, though some interpreters think those times run in parallel.

Regardless, which view might be correct concerning that, they still involve the time of the 6th trumpet, and that you have the 6th trumpet after the trib of those days, after great tribulation. And that you're arguing the wrath of God is not the great tribulation, the wrath of God is after great tribulation. But by wrongly placing the 6th trumpet after great tribulation, the fact it fits during great tribulation, you have then made the great tribulation to be involving the wrath of God since you insist all the trumpets are the wrath of God.

Except the way you are trying to get around that, the 6th trumpet is meaning after great tribulation. This is yet more reasons as to why your view involving all the trumpets isn't making sense to me, since it would mean that the time of the beast and it's 42 months is not involving the great tribulation, it is meaning after the great tribulation, the fact the time of the beast undeniably involves the time of the 6th trumpet, and that you have the time of the 6th trumpet after the great trib.

 

[DavidPT]

I understand some of this but parts like where you keep talking about 6 seals (rather than all 7) makes no sense.

The reason I'm bringing up the first 6 seals is because those seals involve actual events that take place on the earth. The 7th seal is involving silence in heaven, not events taking place back on earth. Which means to me, once the first angel sounds, this is not meaning chronologically after all the events involving the first 6 seals had already come to pass on the earth first. Because if it did mean that, it would mean all the trumpets are the wrath of God. Only the 7th trumpet is the wrath of God. IOW, when the first trumpet sounds, the events involving the 6th seal, for example, these events haven't even taken place on the earth yet. That could mean, for example, that the time of the first trumpet, it is involving the time of the first seal, or maybe the 2nd seal, or maybe even both. Certainly not the time of the 6th seal since that involves the wrath of God, the 7th trumpet, And that the first trumpet is way before the time of the 7th trumpet.

 

[Jamdoc]

The 6th trumpet obviously involves the time of the 2Ws if the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, and that once the following below happens to the 2Ws, we are then told the 2nd woe is past.

Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

This is where the events involving the 6th trumpet begin. Ch 10 is parenthetical, like you already pointed out. Ch 11, though some of it too is parenthetical in portions, not all of it is, though. Obviously, the 1260 days they prophesy, this has to fit somewhere. And that the following indicates it fits during the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.


Verse 14 undeniably proves that the time of the 2Ws, that it involves the 6th trumpet. Does not verse 13 say---And the same hour was there a great earthquake? The same hour as what? How can it not be this? And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

And does not verse 14 say---The second woe is past? Meaning the events involving the 6th trumpet. If the 2Ws are called to heaven, and that during that same hour there was a great earthquake, and that we are then told that the 2nd woe is past, it is ludricrous for anyone to insist that the the time of the 2Ws that this does not involve the 6th trumpet.

By you putting all the trumpets after the trib of those days, your interpretation, whether you realize it or not, is putting, not only the time of the 2Ws, after the great trib, but also the time of the beast and it's42 month reign, after the trib as well. The time of the 2Ws come first, followed by the time of the beast, though some interpreters think those times run in parallel.

Regardless, which view might be correct concerning that, they still involve the time of the 6th trumpet, and that you have the 6th trumpet after the trib of those days, after great tribulation. And that you're arguing the wrath of God is not the great tribulation, the wrath of God is after great tribulation. But by wrongly placing the 6th trumpet after great tribulation, the fact it fits during great tribulation, you have then made the great tribulation to be involving the wrath of God since you insist all the trumpets are the wrath of God.

Except the way you are trying to get around that, the 6th trumpet is meaning after great tribulation. This is yet more reasons as to why your view involving all the trumpets isn't making sense to me, since it would mean that the time of the beast and it's 42 months is not involving the great tribulation, it is meaning after the great tribulation, the fact the time of the beast undeniably involves the time of the 6th trumpet, and that you have the time of the 6th trumpet after the great trib.

The 2 witnesses I don't have starting their ministry in the 2nd half, or even really the first half, but they minister for 1260 days during the middle, it overlaps

big reason why is if they are ministering during the wrath of God, and the wrath of God is before Jesus returns, then you do not have a "like the days of Noah" and "like the days of Lot" where life is going on like normal.

But I also have a different understanding of the first 4 seals as being pre 70th week events, they're the crisis that establishes the global government, then there's a return to "normalcy" for most people, just Christians and Jews are persecuted.

So I have first 4 seals, then a pause while a world government is set up, then persecution begins, Abomination of Desolation, persecution intensifies, but for those who take the mark, life is "normal"

Then Jesus returns.
Then the world falls apart as the wrath of God is dished out.


See, God actually gave us a very good picture of the earlier events of Revelation in the 20th century in WW1 and WW2.
You had a major crisis (WW1) that led to an attempt at global government, a pandemic, and an economic collapse.
Followed by a rise in persecution of Jews.
Then a picture of Antichrist (Hitler) rose up, and persecution of Jews intensified to the greatest picture of the Great Tribulation we've had in history.

and it led to the creation of the modern state of Israel, the fig tree bringing forth new leaves.

all these events took time, and there were pauses between one thing and the next, and there was a period of "new normal" in the interwar period even though it was marked by pandemic and economic collapse.