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The old covenant is it still for the unbelieving jews versus the new?

fhansen

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How are people saved? That is how are Jews saved, gentiles saved, pagans saved, heathens saved?

Are we saved through believe/faith in Jesus or are we saved through works of the law?

If we are saved by faith, then the covanant laws are no longer in force.
If we are saved by works, why isn't thatpreached and taught.
Its both/and. We're saved by faith because, without it, nothing we do is done in union with God, by His Spirit. Our righteousness on our own is no righteousness at all, just "filthy rags" as they say, to emphasize the point. "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

But "with God all things are possible"- Matt 19:26. So only with God can man truly begin to be who he was created to be-and sin isn't part of that even as we'll continue to struggle with it as believers. So, with faith, with grace, with God, IOW we can work out our salvation, we can put to death the deeds of the flesh, Rom 8:12-13, we can do "for the least of these", Matt 25, we can do the works prepared for us in advance, Eph 2:10, we can do good, Rom 2:7, obey the commandments, Rom 2:13 and Matt 19:17, be holy, Heb 12:14, be sanctified, Rom 6:22-all aimed at attaining eternal life as we remain in Him, doing His will, living by the Spirit.

Or...we can refuse to come, to pick up our cross daily, or stop doing so once we've began, turning back away from Him and failing to persevere at any point along the way.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Or...we can refuse to come, to pick up our cross daily, or stop doing so once we've began, turning back away from Him and failing to persevere at any point along the way.

How does that fit with...

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

No hope for those who fail to persevere under torture then ???
 
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fhansen

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How does that fit with...

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

No hope for those who fail to persevere under torture then ???
Just persevering, as Scripture tells us we must, in the faith, born out by how we live our lives with love of God and neighbor being the primary fruit and indicator.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Just persevering, as Scripture tells us we must, in the faith, born out by how we live our lives with love of God and neighbor being the primary fruit and indicator.

I am not sure that answers the question...
 
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fhansen

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How does that fit with...

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

No hope for those who fail to persevere under torture then ???
I imagine a martyr comes very close in this life to God's ideal for man- having a great deal of faith in, hope in, and love for Him and yet He isn't demanding perfection in this life either. In any case He has a different plan for all-and all aren't given the same amount of "talents" to invest. But all are expected to realize a return, to do the best they can with whatever they've been given.
 
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fhansen

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How does that fit with...

2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

No hope for those who fail to persevere under torture then ???
If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2:11-13

I guess I don’t see the question. He will always remain faithful; we’re the wildcard in it all, not Him.
 
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SkyWriting

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the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry
Yes, they still try to follow the laws. And people do get credit for trying.
How they get credit, I'm not clear on. Perhaps on Judgment day, Jesus gives people who have trusted in the Father, full credit for their faith.
 
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Carl Emerson

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If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12 if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2:11-13

I guess I don’t see the question. He will always remain faithful; we’re the wildcard in it all, not Him.

I guess it comes back to, yet again, if our salvation depends on our performance or what He did for us on the Cross.

Verse 13 to me confirms that He is faithful to His salvation promises and has sealed those promises on the cross for the chosen.
 
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fhansen

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I guess it comes back to, yet again, if our salvation depends on our performance or what He did for us on the Cross.

Verse 13 to me confirms that He is faithful to His salvation promises and has sealed those promises on the cross for the chosen.
And I believe the rest of the passage shows we can set conditions, that we can still oppose His salvific will that none should perish. And this aligns with much of the New Testament as I see it-and as has been historically understood.
 
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Carl Emerson

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And I believe the rest of the passage shows we can set conditions, that we can still oppose His salvific will that none should perish. And this aligns with much of the New Testament as I see it-and as has been historically understood.

Well that theology does not take into account the prophesies given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah concerning the new covenant to come in which the indwelling presence of the Fear of God would seal us against the possibility of falling away.

Jer 32
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.
 
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fhansen

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Well that theology does not take into account the prophesies given by Ezekiel and Jeremiah concerning the new covenant to come in which the indwelling presence of the Fear of God would seal us against the possibility of falling away.

Jer 32
40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.
Alright, Carl :). And we can go back and forth trading verses, without convincing each other about who "they" might be, or about whether or not even they can still opt out. Anyway, my main criteria for who they are revolves around how well they love, with the biblical form of godly love-and while fruit will manifest, God knows that state of being better than we do for each person.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Alright, Carl :). And we can go back and forth trading verses, without convincing each other about who "they" might be, or about whether or not even they can still opt out. Anyway, my main criteria for who they are revolves around how well they love, with the biblical form of godly love-and while fruit will manifest, God knows that state of being better than we do for each person.

Agree...

I also think that we don't differentiate between the called and the chosen.

I think the called can fall away but the chosen can't.

So those referred to in Heb 6 would seem to be called and in fellowship but not yet sealed as a chosen son or daughter.

I believe that the truely born again have given up their free will for His will - have surrendered their lives to Him and given Him control. In this sense they are slaves to righteousness.

Couple this with the understanding that the indwelling Holy Spirit has 7 features according to Isaiah 11. One of these is the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord mentioned by Jeremiah as the means God uses to seal our salvation.

The idea of the chosen not loosing salvation is an important issue that brings confidence to those in the faith.

Satan does not want confident Christians and will bind them to the fear of losing salvation so they never step out and grow as intended.

Our focus should be on walking in celebration with Him - not worrying about going to hell.

The anti 'assurance of salvation' movement has been strong because modern churches can be slack about righteousness and draw folks into a false gospel.
Grace is not cheap and the way in is narrow - but the answer not to to attack assurance of salvation, but rather preach the real gospel which requires death to self.
 
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fhansen

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Agree...

I also think that we don't differentiate between the called and the chosen.

I think the called can fall away but the chosen can't.

So those referred to in Heb 6 would seem to be called and in fellowship but not yet sealed as a chosen son or daughter.

I believe that the truely born again have given up their free will for His will - have surrendered their lives to Him and given Him control. In this sense they are slaves to righteousness.

Couple this with the understanding that the indwelling Holy Spirit has 7 features according to Isaiah 11. One of these is the Spirit of the Fear of the Lord mentioned by Jeremiah as the means God uses to seal our salvation.

The idea of the chosen not loosing salvation is an important issue that brings confidence to those in the faith.

Satan does not want confident Christians and will bind them to the fear of losing salvation so they never step out and grow as intended.

Our focus should be on walking in celebration with Him - not worrying about going to hell.

The anti 'assurance of salvation' movement has been strong because modern churches can be slack about righteousness and draw folks into a false gospel.
Grace is not cheap and the way in is narrow - but the answer not to to attack assurance of salvation, but rather preach the real gospel which requires death to self.
Well, satan might want over-confident Christians-a confidence which certainly shouldn't engender much fear incidentally-and I doubt that all confident Christians at the end of the day will necessarily end up in heaven either way. A balanced and healthy degree of concern, such that we should be vigilant, that we should strive, that we will struggle, that we might persevere, as Scripture tells us we must, might stir and motivate more growth yet.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Well, satan might want over-confident Christians-a confidence which certainly shouldn't engender much fear incidentally-and I doubt that all confident Christians at the end of the day will necessarily end up in heaven either way. A balanced and healthy degree of concern, such that we should be vigilant, that we should strive, that we will struggle, that we might persevere, as Scripture tells us we must, might stir and motivate more growth yet.

Cant say I agree...

Have you ever pondered on the Wages and the Gift ???

The Wages of Sin is Death - effort, work, no rest, striving - yields death.

But the Gift of God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Choose what you want in life - the wages or the gift...

The key is to enter His Rest and Walk in the Spirit. Then the energy required comes from Him.

The botton line is relationship not obedience - obedience flows from relationship, not the other way around.
 
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fhansen

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Cant say I agree...

Have you ever pondered on the Wages and the Gift ???

The Wages of Sin is Death - effort, work, no rest, striving - yields death.

But the Gift of God is Eternal Life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Choose what you want in life - the wages or the gift...

The key is to enter His Rest and Walk in the Spirit. Then the energy required comes from Him.

The botton line is relationship not obedience - obedience flows from relationship, not the other way around.
I can’t say I entirely disagree. But our relationship with God must produce fruit, including the overcoming of sin, or else we’ve never truly entered it, or have left it. And your statement about sin equaling? “effort, work, no rest, striving” doesn’t fit. He gives the grace, we strive together with Him now at times to do His will. It’s not always easy because the flesh still has its pull but the more we resist the more the devil flees, the more we succeed the more that grace increases.

Paul worked, Paul strove. It’s a labor of love, consisting of God’s work in us and yet our participation in that work. It’s the good we do as we accept and express the gift, the grace, given, the love the Spirit pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5). It’s a daily choice, to pick up our cross and follow.
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal lifein Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 6:22-23

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

God doesn’t need our involvement and yet He desires and covets and is immensely pleased by it because He seeks to draw us into the love that can only come by choice as we embrace and express that gift which results in our growing nearer to His own image.
 
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RDKirk

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I can’t say I entirely disagree. But our relationship with God must produce fruit, including the overcoming of sin, or else we’ve never truly entered it, or have left it. And your statement about sin equaling? “effort, work, no rest, striving” doesn’t fit. He gives the grace, we strive together with Him now at times to do His will. It’s not always easy because the flesh still has its pull but the more we resist the more the devil flees, the more we succeed the more that grace increases.

Paul worked, Paul strove. It’s a labor of love, consisting of God’s work in us and yet our participation in that work. It’s the good we do as we accept and express the gift, the grace, given, the love the Spirit pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5). It’s a daily choice, to pick up our cross and follow.
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal lifein Christ Jesus our Lord.” Rom 6:22-23

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

God doesn’t need our involvement and yet He desires and covets and is immensely pleased by it because He seeks to draw us into the love that can only come by choice as we embrace and express that gift which results in our growing nearer to His own image.

Paul explicitly defined what he meant by "work."

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. -- Romans 4:4

This is a re-statement of verses that occur in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Proverbs, and Luke. Paul himself repeats it two or three times.

When someone does work, the person he works for is obligated to pay him for his labor. His wage is due.

So, in Paul's rhetorical argument to the Romans, "work" is what a person does with the intention of obligating God to his salvation. The person performs certain procedures and behaves in certain manners, so that he can say, "Look at what I've done in your name. Pay me what I am due."

But Paul's response is that any effort we make falls short of the mark, is still in sin, and thus if there is any obligation God owes us, it's death.
 
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fhansen

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Paul explicitly defined what he meant by "work."

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. -- Romans 4:4

This is a re-statement of verses that occur in Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Proverbs, and Luke. Paul himself repeats it two or three times.

When someone does work, the person he works for is obligated to pay him for his labor. His wage is due.

So, in Paul's rhetorical argument to the Romans, "work" is what a person does with the intention of obligating God to his salvation. The person performs certain procedures and behaves in certain manners, so that he can say, "Look at what I've done in your name. Pay me what I am due."

But Paul's response is that any effort we make falls short of the mark, is still in sin, and thus if there is any obligation God owes us, it's death.
The church is adamant that God owes man nothing. Our very existence depends on Him to begin with. But, because God patiently seeks to draw man into justice or righteousness, into ever increasing alignment with His will, which begins with our acknowledgement of His existence and of our absolute need for Him, He chooses to appeal to and help and move and direct our wills towards the light, towards Himself, without overwhelming them. The cross, especially, is a dramatic demonstration of that beckoning to, rather than violating, the human will.

God, alone, can justify man and no works of the law will ever impress Him, because we have no righteousness of our own, apart from Him. The New Covenant is all about turning to God in faith first of all, entering union with Him, a union which itself defines or is the basis of man’s justice or righteousness and which is ultimately meant to be one of subjugation of creature to Creator bound by love. This is the reverse of Adam’s course of action in Eden and this is where man’s perfection and purpose lie. It’s to eat of the Tree of Life now.

In all this God is patiently molding and producing something, something grand and noble, something better than He started with, rather than simply saving a fortunate portion of otherwise worthless sinful wretches while damning the rest. We’ve eaten of the tree of death, we’ve known both good and evil in a world effectively alienated from its creator where man’s will reigns by itself and here we may come to hate the sin/evil that results when God is no longer fully the God of man, so that we may be all the more ready to open the door and embrace the Good when He comes knocking. There, as we come to know Him for ourselves, He becomes our God again (Jer 31:33-34).
Now this is eternal life: that they know you,the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

Man is lost and wouldn’t even know where to look for God if he wanted to. But our wills are never uninvolved, for our own highest good, in that we can always say “no” to Him as He seeks to elicit an even firmer and firmer “yes”. So He calls us to follow Him now, daily, and what we do with the grace that flows from that relationship determines our eternal destinies. That’s what faith can and is meant to lead to; it all begins, from man’s perspective, with faith. Then, once justified, we work out our salvation with that justice, that seed of righteousness, of God’s own life in us, together with He who works in us. That grace produces both the faith and the works, not works of the law but works of grace, works of love, that accomplish those things that Scripture tells us we must in order to inherit eternal life.
The only thing that counts is faith working through love”. Gal 5:6

It’s about walking the walk, not just talk, not just being a clanging gong.
“...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing.” 1 Cor 13:2

God wants us to be something, and, with Him, nothing is impossible (Matt 19:26).
Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me” Phil 4:13

And love acts, BTW, for the good of others by its nature. And it reflects the very nature of God that we’re to be transformed into. He wants us to love as He does, and our purpose, our telos, is attained in that, even if not fully until the next life. So the church can actually teach, quoting a 16th century believer,
At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

That’s the path, the journey, that begins with faith.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I can’t say I entirely disagree. But our relationship with God must produce fruit, including the overcoming of sin, or else we’ve never truly entered it, or have left it. And your statement about sin equaling? “effort, work, no rest, striving” doesn’t fit.

Fruit and works are two different things.

I quoted the wages of sin is death.

I didn't say sin equals work.

But when we are in sin, there is striving, effort, less rest, and the works of the flesh do not produce fruit.

Fruit comes from the Love of Jesus.

...if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may glory, but do not have love, it does me no good.
 
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fhansen

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Fruit and works are two different things.

I quoted the wages of sin is death.

I didn't say sin equals work.

But when we are in sin, there is striving, effort, less rest, and the works of the flesh do not produce fruit.

Fruit comes from the Love of Jesus.

...if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may glory, but do not have love, it does me no good.
By whaever name we want to call it, we must, in order to gain eternal life, do good, obey the commandments, put to death the deeds of the flesh, be holy, refrain from sin, remain in Christ, do "for the least of these", etc, etc. And, yes, these are the fruit, works, acts, et al, of love.
 
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Carl Emerson

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By whaever name we want to call it, we must, in order to gain eternal life, do good, obey the commandments, put to death the deeds of the flesh, be holy, refrain from sin, remain in Christ, do "for the least of these", etc, etc. And, yes, these are the fruit, works, acts, et al, of love.

Yes that is the critical point...

His Love motivates righteousness, not our striving in the flesh to keep the Law.
 
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