The old covenant is it still for the unbelieving jews versus the new?

[DaveM]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry

 

[tampasteve]

I edited the title for you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The old covenant ended when the temple vail was rent from top to bottom by God.

It never was a covenant of salvation anyway, as salvation promises for all humanity were established through Abraham.

 

[dqhall]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry

Most of the Jewish Christians do not do animal sacrifice as Jesus set them free. In Israel the national laws do not allow them to execute people for sins such as working on the Sabbath or adultery, even though the Torah recommends such punishments. A Jewish Christian who works on the Sabbath in an Israeli Jewish community might be ostracized, lose a job, lose an inheritance, etc. The Sabbath is enforced in ways other than execution.

There are some people whose mothers are Jewish and they have Jewish appearances, even Hebrew as their primary language, but they have accepted Jesus as their rabbi. They may observe Old Testament laws against murder, adultery, theft, and false witness. They are supposed to honor their parents. They may not want to look for a Levite to pay tithes to.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The old covenant ended when the temple vail was rent from top to bottom by God.

It never was a covenant of salvation anyway, as salvation promises for all humanity were established through Abraham.

 

[Tolworth John]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

How are people saved? That is how are Jews saved, gentiles saved, pagans saved, heathens saved?

Are we saved through believe/faith in Jesus or are we saved through works of the law?

If we are saved by faith, then the covanant laws are no longer in force.
If we are saved by works, why isn't thatpreached and taught.

 

[Soyeong]

The old covenant ended when the temple vail was rent from top to bottom by God.

It never was a covenant of salvation anyway, as salvation promises for all humanity were established through Abraham.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah is how the Israelites knew what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so the experience of living in obedience to the Torah is inherently connected with the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Torah. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Genesis 18:19, God experientially knew Abraham that he might teaching His children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven, He will give to his offspring all of these lands, and in his offspring all of the nations of the earth would be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him and Israel to walk in His way that they might experientially know Him, God taught them to walk in His way through the Torah (Deuteronomy 10:12-13) and the experience of knowing God and Jesus is eternal life (John 17:3), which again is the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and the Torah is how the Israelites were graciously taught by God how to do these works, so that is not something that skipped over the Mosaic Covenant or that changed under the New Covenant.

The Torah is how the offspring of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), so the way to fulfill the promises that God made to Abraham is by blessing the nations through teaching them by example how to turn from their wickedness in obedience to the Torah, and Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of that promise, who was sent to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, who who set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until his death, so the sum of everything that he taught during his ministry prior to that was in regard to how to follow the Mosaic Covenant, and he not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves obeying the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

 

[SkyWriting]

How are people saved? That is how are Jews saved, gentiles saved, pagans saved, heathens saved?
Are we saved through believe/faith in Jesus or are we saved through works of the law?
If we are saved by faith, then the covenant laws are no longer in force.
If we are saved by works, why isn't that preached and taught.

Excellent questions! Most everyone gets this wrong and then they argue endlessly
over the wrong answers.
I discovered the answer in my studies and most everyone finds it to be "old hat" and boring.
They say "Jesus" and then they claim everyone else is going to hell so we need to send
missionaries to every part of the remote jungle. And then the missionaries get killed and they ask why,why,why?

Because they didn't read properly.

Matthew 7:12

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this is
the Law and the Prophets.​

The Greatest Commandment

 

[disciple Clint]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and the Torah is how the Israelites knew what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4), so the experience of living in obedience to the Torah is inherently connected with the concept of Jesus saving us from living in transgression of the Torah. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Torah, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.

In Genesis 18:19, God experientially knew Abraham that he might teaching His children and those of his household to walk in God's way by doing righteousness and justice that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised, namely in Genesis 26:4-5, God will multiply his offspring as the stars in the heaven, He will give to his offspring all of these lands, and in his offspring all of the nations of the earth would be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him and Israel to walk in His way that they might experientially know Him, God taught them to walk in His way through the Torah (Deuteronomy 10:12-13) and the experience of knowing God and Jesus is eternal life (John 17:3), which again is the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, and the Torah is how the Israelites were graciously taught by God how to do these works, so that is not something that skipped over the Mosaic Covenant or that changed under the New Covenant.

The Torah is how the offspring of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), so the way to fulfill the promises that God made to Abraham is by blessing the nations through teaching them by example how to turn from their wickedness in obedience to the Torah, and Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of that promise, who was sent to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, who who set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until his death, so the sum of everything that he taught during his ministry prior to that was in regard to how to follow the Mosaic Covenant, and he not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves obeying the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

See Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9.

 

[Soyeong]

See Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 9.

Do you think that those chapters are in agreement or disagreement with the verses that I used to support what I said?

 

[disciple Clint]

Do you think that those chapters are in agreement or disagreement with the verses that I used to support what I said?

If you read them they are very clearly not in agreement with what I understood you to be saying, what do you think?

 

[Soyeong]

If you read them they are very clearly not in agreement with what I understood you to be saying, what do you think?

There are four possibilities:

1.) Both of are correct about our interpretations of the verses that we have cited and those verses therefore contradict each other.

2.) My interpretation is correct and your interpretation is wrong.

3.) Your interpretation is correct while mine is wrong.

4.) Both of our interpretations are wrong.

If you don't discuss the verses that I cited to explain why you think that my interpretation is wrong, then the most you are arguing that Hebrews 8-9 contradicts the verses that I cited, though I don't think that that is a position that you hold, so you need to reconcile the verses that I cited with your interpretation of Hebrews 8-9.

 

[disciple Clint]

There are four possibilities:

1.) Both of are correct about our interpretations of the verses that we have cited and those verses therefore contradict each other.

2.) My interpretation is correct and your interpretation is wrong.

3.) Your interpretation is correct while mine is wrong.

4.) Both of our interpretations are wrong.

If you don't discuss the verses that I cited to explain why you think that my interpretation is wrong, then the most you are arguing that Hebrews 8-9 contradicts the verses that I cited, though I don't think that that is a position that you hold, so you need to reconcile the verses that I cited with your interpretation of Hebrews 8-9.

I think you need to consider how Hebrews effects your views.

 

[Clare73]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21)

Our salvation is
from the eternal wrath of God on sin (Romans 5:9), as well as the power of sin, and

to eternal life and freedom in Christ from the yoke of the law (Galatians 5:1); i.e., self-effort as the means of gaining God's favor.

 

[Soyeong]

Our salvation is
from the eternal wrath of God on sin (Romans 5:9), as well as the power of sin, and

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and Romans 5:9 still does not contradict that.

to

eternal life and freedom in Christ from the yoke of the law (Galatians 5:1); i.e., self-effort as the means of gaining God's favor.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he and Israel might know him, God revealed His way to know Him through the Torah (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Psalms 119:1-3, etc.), and eternal life in knowing God and Jesus (John 17:3). In Matthew 7:21-23, only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven and that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, and eternal life is again knowing him. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves a slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification and the goal of sanctification is eternal life, which is the gift of God, so obedience to the Torah is part of the content of God's gift of eternal life.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience the Torah. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free from the yoke of the law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

The reason why God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His Torah, but rather it is for freedom that God sets us free (Galatians 5:1), and the Torah is a law of freedom (Psalms 119:45). In Psalms 119:142, the Torah is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Torah that sets us free. God is trustworthy, therefore His Torah is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), to to rely on God's Torah is to rely on God, which has nothing to do with relying on self-effort, and self-effort has never been a means of gaining favor with God, so that can't be something that Christ set us free from. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah, so again, our obedience to it is about putting our faith in him, not about self-effort, though Galatians 5:1 is speaking about being free from those who were preaching self-effort as a means of earning favor with God by relying on works of the law instead of relying on the Torah.

 

[Soyeong]

I think you need to consider how Hebrews effects your views.

And I think you need to consider the verses that I cited affects your views. If you think that Hebrews 8-9 is clearly contradicts the verses that I cited and if you think that the Bible does not contradict itself, then you have a problem, but I do not think that Hebrews 8-9 is contrary to what I said, so I do not have a problem.

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God instructed them to circumcise their hearts and obey the Torah. In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies a time when Israel would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to the Torah. In Ezekiel 36:26-28, it is speaking in regard to their return from exile and the New Covenant and says that God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and sent His Spirit to lead us to obey the Torah. Likewise, in Jeremiah 31:33, it is speaking in regard to the return from exile and the New Covenant by saying that God will put His Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so these verses are describing God circumcising our hearts, and the New Covenant is all about the return to obedience to the Torah, which is also quoted in Hebrews 8:10. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Torah and circumcision of the heart is by the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those with uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and refuse to submit to the Torah. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Torah. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with it. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin and the Torah is how God revealed what sin is (Romans 3:20, 1 John 3:4).

 

[Clare73]

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and Romans 5:9 still does not contradict that.

Strawman. . .

It's not about contradiction, it's about omission of the greater part of the subject.

In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he and Israel might know him, God revealed His way to know Him through the Torah (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Psalms 119:1-3, etc.)

God's New Covenant people are not under the Old Covenant laws (Galatians 3:25; 1 Corinthians 9:21),
they are under Christ's law (Matthew 22:37-40), which is God's law for the New Covenant
(1 Corinthians 9:22), where love is counted as the law's perfect fulfillment (Romans 13:8-10).

 

[SkyWriting]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry

This covers both, and everyone else:

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this
is the Law and the Prophets.
​

Jesus lived this with His life.
But you don't need to have met Jesus to learn how to follow Him.

 

[Clare73]

Excellent questions! Most everyone gets this wrong and then they argue endlessly
over the wrong answers.
I discovered the answer in my studies and most everyone finds it to be "old hat" and boring.
They say "Jesus" and then they claim everyone else is going to hell so we need to send
missionaries to every part of the remote jungle. And then the missionaries get killed and they ask why,why,why?

Because they didn't read properly.
Matthew 7:12:

“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this is
the Law and the Prophets.​

The Greatest Commandment

Salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), even the works of love.

Salvation is by faith separate from faith's works.

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2).
For God neither gives to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8).

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience, however, leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, not salvation, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

 

[SkyWriting]

Salvation is not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), even the works of love.

Salvation is by faith separate from faith's works.

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:2).
For God neither gives to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8).

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience, however, leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification, which is God's will for the believer (1 Thessalonians 4:3).

That is The Law and the Prophets which is summarised here:

Matthew 7:12:
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus lived this and fulfilled all the requirements. So we follow Jesus and are saved by our faith that he filled all the requirements of the law.