The old covenant is it still for the unbelieving jews versus the new?

[fhansen]

Yes that is the critical point...

His Love motivates righteousness, not our striving in the flesh to keep the Law.​

All right, I think I agree . We love because he first loved us and we're motivated now by the love that He puts in our hearts to do the right thing. To be aware of the law is not wrong or bad because the law itself is right. And until we're perfected in love it can still serve a purpose to remind us that we're off. It simply cannot accomplish in us what only love can. Instead it only serves to show us where we fail to love​

 

[Carl Emerson]

All right, I think I agree . We love because he first loved us and we're motivated now by the love that He puts in our hearts to do the right thing. To be aware of the law is not wrong or bad because the law itself is right. And until we're perfected in love it can still serve a purpose to remind us that we're off. It simply cannot accomplish in us what only love can. Instead it only serves to show us where we fail to love​

But there is more - the conviction of the Holy Spirit is a better sense of what is right in God's heart than the Law ever was.

This is because the inner working of the Holy Spirit is personal and specific to every unique life circumstance - something the Law was never capable of.

 

[fhansen]

But there is more - the conviction of the Holy Spirit is a better sense of what is right in God's heart than the Law ever was.

This is because the inner working of the Holy Spirit is personal and specific to every unique life circumstance - something the Law was never capable of.

And that makes sense. Thanks.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@fhansen

Hey, at Church today a good word...

1 Peter 1
New American Standard Bible

A Living Hope and a Sure Salvation

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who reside as strangers, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which perishes though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written: “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brothers and sisters, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Not a hint of losing ones salvation there...

And those last three words are not refering to scripture but that which has been spoken by the breath of God Himself.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Note: this assurance of salvation is addressed to the chosen.

 

[parousia70]

As my friend Carl has said, the Old Covenant ended when the Temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom. It no longer exists for anyone.

Who then are these people that Paul is going after, years after the curtain was torn (and repaired)?

1 Corinthians 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

How could they be "under a law" that "no longer existed for anyone"?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Who then are these people that Paul is going after, years after the curtain was torn (and repaired)?

1 Corinthians 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

How could they be "under a law" that "no longer existed for anyone"?

They were 'under' the law in their false belief just like the foolish Galatians.

 

[DaveM]

how about the old covenant did it save anyone?

what about the land promised to Israel, it still has not received all of it?

 

[RDKirk]

Who then are these people that Paul is going after, years after the curtain was torn (and repaired)?

1 Corinthians 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

How could they be "under a law" that "no longer existed for anyone"?

That is why IMO the Law continued with some power of those under the Law, and for the purposes of the Law (which never included eternal life, btw) until the destruction of the temple. While the temple existed, Jews could still sacrifice for the atonement of sins. After the temple was destroyed, the only method for atonement was through the blood of Jesus.

That would be why the writer of Hebrews could say that the Law was obsolescent and about to pass away, because in his time the temple still existed and sacrifices for atonement under the Law were still happening. The writer of Hebrews was looking beyond the temple.

 

[parousia70]

That is why IMO the Law continued with some power of those under the Law, and for the purposes of the Law (which never included eternal life, btw) until the destruction of the temple. While the temple existed, Jews could still sacrifice for the atonement of sins. After the temple was destroyed, the only method for atonement was through the blood of Jesus.

That would be why the writer of Hebrews could say that the Law was obsolescent and about to pass away, because in his time the temple still existed and sacrifices for atonement under the Law were still happening. The writer of Hebrews was looking beyond the temple.

I agree, and since the destruction of the City and Temple were punishments OF the Law, they could not have been justly metered out unto a people not bound by, and therefore under the Law at that time. The Law had to, biblically, be operational and extant at the time of the temple's destruction for it to have been the just punishment of the Law that it surely was.

And of course, as you pointed out, the writer of Hebrews is crystal clear that the Old Covenant Law, though obsolete, was indeed operational and had not yet vanished as of the late 60's AD

 

[Clare73]

If your interpretation of Galatians 3:25 were correct, then we would expect Jesus to have gone around telling people that the law had ended and we should stop repenting, but he did not do that, and you instead interpret Galatians 3:25 in a way that undermines his ministry.

Strawman. . .

 

[Clare73]

how about the old covenant did it save anyone?

what about the land promised to Israel, it still has not received all of it?

The land promise was fulfilled under Solomon when Israel both possessed and occupied the land to the boundaries of the promise (1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25).

There is no land promise remaining to Israel.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Who then are these people that Paul is going after, years after the curtain was torn (and repaired)?

1 Corinthians 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

How could they be "under a law" that "no longer existed for anyone"?

Paul complied with the Jewish Law when he was among Jews, not because he felt any obligation to, but to enable him to be able to share the Gospel of Christ with them. He was able to do this because he was a Jew himself with the genealogy to support it. But in himself, his faith in Christ overruled any obligation to the Mosaic Law, and when he was among Gentiles, he ignored the Law.

It is true that right up to this day, Jewish worshipers hold to the Mosaic Law, but they are not Christians and still need the Gospel preached to them. In these days there are no "Jewish" Christians. There are either Christians or unbelievers. Paul clearly stated that under Christ there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but all are one.

So, because Paul put himself under the Law when he was among Jews for the purpose of sharing the Gospel of Christ with them, does not mean that any Christian believer should be obligated to the Law in any form.

 

[Soyeong]

Strawman. . .

That is not a strawman. The fact that Jesus did not telling people that the law had ended and we should stop repenting completely undermines how you interpret Galatians 3:25. God's law did not end with the coming of Jesus, but rather he taught the opposite.

 

[BABerean2]

That is not a strawman. The fact that Jesus did not telling people that the law had ended and we should stop repenting completely undermines how you interpret Galatians 3:25. God's law did not end with the coming of Jesus, but rather he taught the opposite.

The rest of Galatians 3:16-29 reveals what Paul meant in verse 25.
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made. That same word "until" was used by Christ in Matthew 5:18.

This fact is confirmed in Galatians 4:24-31 where Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

It is confirmed in Hebrews 8:13 where the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

 

[parousia70]

Paul complied with the Jewish Law when he was among Jews, not because he felt any obligation to, but to enable him to be able to share the Gospel of Christ with them. He was able to do this because he was a Jew himself with the genealogy to support it. But in himself, his faith in Christ overruled any obligation to the Mosaic Law, and when he was among Gentiles, he ignored the Law.

I agree. But it’s irrelevant to my point in addressing your claim that the law at that time did not exist for anyone. It plainly did. Converts to Christ were being circumcised and asked to keep the Law of Moses at least up until the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. (Long after the temple curtain was torn - and repaired) That council only released the gentiles from the practice Law of Moses and Paul was present at the council. The tearing of the temple curtain did NOT end the Law.

It is true that right up to this day, Jewish worshipers hold to the Mosaic Law,

They plainly do not.
We know this by how few people they stone to death. We know they don't actually keep the Law of Moses by how many precepts depend on Temple sacrifices and such (which they also can't keep). We know they don't hold to the Law of Moses by the fact that the Levitical priesthood of Aaron is extinct.

Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses required a Temple and legitimate Levitical priests just in order to observe the Law.

Holding to The Law of Moses does not consist in simply reading a book. It consists in strict OBSERVANCE. There is no way to observe the Law of Moses Today.

No Jew today observes the Law. Not even one.

In these days there are no "Jewish" Christians. There are either Christians or unbelievers. Paul clearly stated that under Christ there is no longer Jew or Gentile, but all are one.

Agreed.

So, because Paul put himself under the Law….

Therein lies the rub.
How could Paul have possibly put himself “under a law” that you claim did not even exist for anyone at that time?

How could Paul have been winning people who were “under a law” that you claim did not exist for anyone at that time?

In order to be “under the law”, the law had to be functioning an extent at that time. How do you reconcile your belief that There were people who were in fact “under the law” with your polar opposite belief that the law was not functioning and extant at the time you oppositely claim they were “under it”?

 

[Soyeong]

The rest of Galatians 3:16-29 reveals what Paul meant in verse 25.
Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made. That same word "until" was used by Christ in Matthew 5:18.

In Luke 16:16-18, Jesus used the same word and said that the Mosaic Law was until John and that since then the Gospel of the Kingdom has been preached, namely to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the fact that he was speaking about the Mosaic Law still being taught after John means that he was not speaking about it ending with him. Furthermore, Jesus went on in verses 17-18 to teach obedience to the Mosaic Law and to say that it would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for the least part to disappear from the Mosaic Law, so he was not speaking about a law that he thought had already ended. Again, neither John or Jesus taught people to stop repenting from their sins, but just the opposite, and that completely undermines how some people interpret Galatians 3:16-29.

Galatians 3:26-29 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked and he walked in obedience to God's law. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were sons of Abraham, then they would do the works that he did. A chip off the old block is someone who has the same nature or character as their father, so this is the sense that we are children of Abraham, who obeyed God's laws (Genesis 26:4-5), the sense that Jesus is the Son of God in that He is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by living in sinless obedience to God's law, and the sense that we are children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example of obedience to God's law. The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature, so this is why those who are walk in and are led by the Spirit are sons of God in contrast with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:1-17) and why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10). So Galatians 3:26-29 also completely undermines those who try to use that chapter against obeying God's law.

This fact is confirmed in Galatians 4:24-31 where Paul told the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to the Sinai Covenant, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, which completely undermines trying to use Galatians 4:24-31 to say that the Sinai Covenant is bondage. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of God's law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then you will therefore share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night, and we can't believe in the truth of these words as Scripture while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. So viewing God's law as being bondage is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture, and the view that it is bondage therefore should not be superimposed onto anyone who considers the Psalms to be Scripture, such as the NT authors.

It is confirmed in Hebrews 8:13 where the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete".

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but we are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, God's eternal law did not become obsolete along with it. While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same laws for how to express, experience, love, believe in, and testify about His nature. For example, God's righteousness is eternal, so any laws that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His righteousness are eternally valid.

 

[BABerean2]

A chip off the old block is someone who has the same nature or character as their father, so this is the sense that we are children of Abraham, who obeyed God's laws (Genesis 26:4-5)

Your post is attempting to claim the New Testament does not mean what it says when we find the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.

Did Abraham keep the commandments that God gave him? Absolutely.
He went to the land God showed him, and he circumcised his male offspring. We are not commanded to do either under the New Covenant fulfilled by the blood of Christ at Calvary.

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:


Based on the passages below, the ten commandments are the Sinai Covenant and it was not given at an earlier time.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


.

 

[Clare73]

That is not a strawman. The fact that Jesus did not telling people that the law had ended and we should stop repenting completely undermines how you interpret Galatians 3:25. God's law did not end with the coming of Jesus, but rather he taught the opposite.

Strawman. . .

 

[Soyeong]

Strawman. . .

How so?