The old covenant is it still for the unbelieving jews versus the new?

[ralliann]

The role of the priesthood was to teach the people the law, offer the sacrifices and administer the ceremonial laws.

Deut 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
The sadducee's were the sola scriptura crowd among the sects. They only accepted Moses Torah as a source of law to judge the disputes among the people. They had no further jurisdiction as rulers and governors, and did not make it a practice to go beyond it, like the other sects did.

 

[Clare73]

The role of the priesthood was to teach the people the law, offer the sacrifices and administer the ceremonial laws.

Deut 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.

Thanks. . .

Leviticus 10:11; Deuteronomy 33:8, 10; 2 Chronicles 15:3, 17:8-9, Nehemiah 8:7-8; Malachi 2:7.

The sadducee's were the sola scriptura crowd among the sects. They only accepted Moses Torah as a source of law to judge the disputes among the people. They had no further jurisdiction as rulers and governors, and did not make it a practice to go beyond it, like the other sects did.

 

[ralliann]

They were 'under' the law in their false belief just like the foolish Galatians.

Until the temple was no more, it could still be defiled ritually. And so could the people assembling there. Paul did not defile it and neither did Gentile believers. After 70 A.D. ritual purity laws were no longer biblically necessary.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[ralliann]

Much like other things taught in the NT, the concept of being a kingdom of priests is not something that was invented in the NT, but rather the NT authors got it from what they read.

Right and the law of Moses assigns that to The sons of Aaron and the whole tribe of Levi. They have the priesthood as an inheritance, not Israel. Their inheritance is the Lord. Why are you saying It is Israel's?

 

[fhansen]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry

Anything done apart from faith is bound to fail. So, if anyone, Jew or Gentiles alike, can be sufficiently righteous to please God (which, properly understood, means that they love as He does), then they’d be considered worthy of salvation. But without union with God, without grace, IOW, this righteousness, this love, is not possible. And that union is achieved or realized by faith.

This union is the chief difference between the old and new covenants.

 

[Ligurian]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: 16 according to all things which thou didst desire of the Lord thy God in Choreb in the day of the assembly, saying, We will not again hear the voice of the Lord thy God and we will not any more see this great fire, and so we shall not die. 17 And the Lord said to me, They have spoken rightly all that they have said to thee. 18 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him. 19 And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

John 12:44-50 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself: but the Father which sent Me He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.KJV

 

[Davy]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry

Many confuse the term 'old covenant' with the label 'Old Testament', thinking all the Old Testament Books were about the 'old covenant'. Not so. The old covenant involved laws in ordinances dealing with religious ceremonial worship, rituals, washings, tithes, etc. That was not part of God's Ten Commandments, nor many other laws of God's creation.

What Lord Jesus nailed to His cross specifically was the "handwriting of ordinances" (Colossians 2:14). That does not mean all of God's laws. And the Christian can easily see this with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1 about God's laws...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

Paul gives warning for breaking certain of God's laws also in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and also in Galatians 5. Paul even says there, those who follow such sins will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

So many of God's laws are still established under Christ Jesus. And it's important to understand what God's laws were established for, i.e., for the wicked and unholy. That means following the commandments of Jesus and His Apostles means we won't be breaking any of God's laws.

That is actually Paul's Message in the Galatians 5 Chapter about walking by The Spirit, and not by our flesh. If we walk by The Holy Spirit, listening to Him, then 'we' become dead to the law. A danger to be careful of is with some churches that preach this backwards, and instead say that all of the law is now dead under Christ, which is not true per New Covenant doctrine given by Apostle Paul. So careful 'how' you hear.

 

[fhansen]

Many confuse the term 'old covenant' with the label 'Old Testament', thinking all the Old Testament Books were about the 'old covenant'. Not so. The old covenant involved laws in ordinances dealing with religious ceremonial worship, rituals, washings, tithes, etc. That was not part of God's Ten Commandments, nor many other laws of God's creation.

What Lord Jesus nailed to His cross specifically was the "handwriting of ordinances" (Colossians 2:14). That does not mean all of God's laws. And the Christian can easily see this with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1 about God's laws...

1 Tim 1:8-11
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
KJV

Paul gives warning for breaking certain of God's laws also in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and also in Galatians 5. Paul even says there, those who follow such sins will not enter into the Kingdom of God.

So many of God's laws are still established under Christ Jesus. And it's important to understand what God's laws were established for, i.e., for the wicked and unholy. That means following the commandments of Jesus and His Apostles means we won't be breaking any of God's laws.

That is actually Paul's Message in the Galatians 5 Chapter about walking by The Spirit, and not by our flesh. If we walk by The Holy Spirit, listening to Him, then 'we' become dead to the law. A danger to be careful of is with some churches that preach this backwards, and instead say that all of the law is now dead under Christ, which is not true per New Covenant doctrine given by Apostle Paul. So careful 'how' you hear.

Yes, I think it can also be said that Paul wasn't condemning any law, but rather condemning our being "under the law". None of the law is bad; it could all be said to be good and spiritual, but it must be fulfilled by the Spirit, under grace, not as if we possessed righteousness on our own, apart from God. The chief benefit of the law is to show us that we're sinners, that we're incapable of fulfilling it on our own; we were never meant to do so for that matter.

The main difference, IMO, between the Old and New Covenants is that the new is all about reconciling man with God first of all, and establishing the fellowship/communion with Him that man is made for. The greatest offence and injustice, the chief characteristic of the state sometimes called "original sin" is separation or alienation of man from God. Once reconciliation is achieved, through Christ's sacrifice and our belief in it/Him/God, fallen man is healed of his primary flaw, of his "falleness", he's raised from death to newness of life, a life he's now obligated to walk in, with God, a life which should be characterized by love, just as He loves.

That's the right way to fulfill the law, and the reason why the ancient churches, for their part, always insisted that the moral law, the ten commandments, particularly, are still obligatory for man.

 

[Davy]

Yes, I think it can also be said that Paul wasn't condemning any law, but rather condemning our being "under the law".

I don't assume what Paul said. I read and heed what he said. In Galatians 5, Paul explained that IF... we are led and walk by The Spirit, then we are not under the law (Galatians 5:16-18). That IF means a condition.

In contrast to that, Paul showed what it means to walk by our flesh instead, listing particular sins per God's law, like he did in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.

What that means is this:
We are not under the law ONLY IF we walk by The Spirit. If we instead walk by our flesh, then we place ourselves BACK UNDER GOD'S LAW. Because remember, like Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1, the law wasn't made for the righteous, but for the sinner and unholy.

So was Paul condemning our 'being under the law', or was he warning that we go back under the law IF we walk by our flesh instead of by The Spirit? He was warning us to be aware of sin, and realize we put ourselves back under the law if we still sin.

 

[Davy]

Not properly understanding what Apostle Paul taught about God's law for the Christian is a major problem in quite a few Churches today.

Some Churches are wrongly preaching that once we believe on Jesus Christ and are baptized, that we can sin no more, or that any time after that if we do sin, it is immediately covered by Christ, and that without even repenting of it or asking Jesus forgiveness of it. The New Testament of God's Word does not teach that kind of liberty in Christ at all.

In Romans 3:25 by Apostle Paul tells us that the remission of sins are for those sins "that are past".

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

In 1 John 1, Apostle John explains that we still need to repent ask Jesus forgiveness of sins we may commit after that.

Those who preach we no longer have need to repent after having believed and been baptized are wrongly teaching their own doctrine, and not New Covenant doctrine by Christ and His Apostles. The devil loves their man-made doctrine too, because it means sins still hanging over much of Christ's body because they think they have no more need for repentance to Christ.

It is also those... who are most likely to preach the lie that the law is now dead, when it is not. The sins of anarchy and rebellion are of the devil.

 

[fhansen]

I don't assume what Paul said. I read and heed what he said. In Galatians 5, Paul explained that IF... we are led and walk by The Spirit, then we are not under the law (Galatians 5:16-18). That IF means a condition.

In contrast to that, Paul showed what it means to walk by our flesh instead, listing particular sins per God's law, like he did in 1 Timothy 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.

What that means is this:
We are not under the law ONLY IF we walk by The Spirit. If we instead walk by our flesh, then we place ourselves BACK UNDER GOD'S LAW. Because remember, like Paul taught in 1 Timothy 1, the law wasn't made for the righteous, but for the sinner and unholy.

So was Paul condemning our 'being under the law', or was he warning that we go back under the law IF we walk by our flesh instead of by The Spirit? He was warning us to be aware of sin, and realize we put ourselves back under the law if we still sin.

Ok, and I'm not assuming anything either. Paul taught that no one is justified by the law, by a mere external show of holiness. Only God can make man just/righteous. Faith unites us to God, to grace, to life by the Spirit where sin can be overcome.

 

[Davy]

Ok, and I'm not assuming anything either. Paul taught that no one is justified by the law, by a mere external show of holiness. Only God can make man just/righteous. Faith unites us to God, to grace, to life by the Spirit where sin can be overcome.

It's true, no one is 'justified' by keeping God's law. And I NEVER said that, nor even inferring that. So you just left... topic.

The topic is... that Apostle Paul still taught an application of God's law within CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE per his New Testament Epistles. And 1 Timothy 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and Galatians 5, are Paul's strongest points on that Christian doctrine.

The subject you changed to though is about grace vs. works.

In 1 Timothy 1, you should understand why God's law is still part of Christian Doctrine per Apostle Paul. It's because like Paul said, the law was not made for the righteous, but for the sinner and ungodly, and then he goes on to list specific sins that are against God's law. In 1 Corinthians 6, Paul even goes so far as to say those who do those sins shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV

Paul is very clear on that to me. Those who practice those sins won't get into God's future Kingdom.

Does that mean if one believes on Jesus Christ and is baptized, but still practices those sins, that they will... inherit the kingdom of God?? Sorry, but NO!

So there IS... a certain matter of what ACTIONS we do in this life that can determine where we wind up. For those in Christ that fall away to one of those sins, like a slip up, what does God's Word say do?

Like Apostle John taught in 1 John 1, we are to REPENT to Jesus, asking forgiveness, and do our best to never commit that sin again. Then per His promise, He cleanses us of the sin and forgives us. And to say that we have no sin even after having become Christians, per John, means to make Jesus a liar.

I realize that in some Churches today, devils are preaching falsehoods like those in Christ never have any more need to repent of future sin. Believing that is a guarantee down the dark path to the devil and hell.

 

[fhansen]

It's true, no one is 'justified' by keeping God's law. And I NEVER said that, nor even inferring that.

Ok? And I didn't say otherwise. The real point here is that man is still obligated to be righteous under the new covenant, not merely forgiven of sin but overcoming sin. So of course Paul would know that, because this is a new righteousness given when God justifies man. Paul wasn't asserting that faith is a get out of hell free card without regard to sin/lawlessness but rather that faith is the very means to true righteousness, to becoming the people of God that He created us to be.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

So whenever Paul speaks of the need to be obedient in some way or another, he understands that all must do so but that true obedience comes only by living by the Spirit, under grace, by the love He pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5).

 

[Davy]

Ok? And I didn't say otherwise. The real point here is that man is still obligated to be righteous under the new covenant, not merely forgiven of sin but overcoming sin. So of course Paul would know that, because this is a new righteousness given when God justifies man. Paul wasn't asserting that faith is a get out of hell free card without regard to sin/lawlessness but rather that faith is the very means to true righteousness, to becoming the people of God that He created us to be.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

So whenever Paul speaks of the need to be obedient in some way or another, he understands that all must do so but that true obedience comes only by living by the Spirit, under grace, by the love He pours into our hearts (Rom 5:5).

I suggest you go through what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 6, and in Galatians 5 especially.

The way The Holy Spirit works with us Paul showed is based upon our 'walk'. IF... we walk by The Spirit he said, we become dead to the law. But IF... we walk by our flesh, then we put ourselves back under the law.

Now look at the Church member in 1 Corinthians 5 that was having sexual intercourse with his mother. Paul had that one cast out of that Church, to Satan, that his 'spirit' might be saved in the day of The Lord Jesus (i.e., Christ's future "thousand years" reign).

1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
KJV

In Matthew 7 and Matthew 25, Lord Jesus had already taught that not everyone who says, "Lord, lord" shall enter into His Kingdom. He showed He will shun those for doing iniquity. But does that mean those believers on Him that fall away cannot be saved "in the day of the Lord Jesus"?

What Paul showed above in verse 5 is that those can still be saved by Jesus in the future Millennial time of Rev.20. But it also means that throughout that thousand years, those will stand in judgment for doing iniquity, and will not reign with Jesus during that time, nor be allowed to approach His table to serve Him.

So what do you want, to be an 'overcomer' like Jesus commanded us, and reign with Him when He returns in our near future? or be like those who think they are staying in Christ by casting out devils, preaching Him in the streets, but were guilty of doing iniquity, and He closes the door on you saying, "I know ye not"? (Matthew 25).

I mean, He gives us the freedom during this present world to repent and ask Him forgiveness of a sin we may slip up and commit after having believed on Him, so what's the problem with brethren doing repentance today?? (1 John 1).

 

[Jonaitis]

the old covenant is it --still for the unbelieving jews versus the new covenant for the church.

tried to edit title was unable sorry

It is taught that if the Old Covenant were still in effect, then it would not be called the "Old Covenant" in contrast to the "New Covenant." In Hebrews 8:13, we find this passage:

"In speaking of a new covenant, He makes the first one obsolete."

According to the New Testament, the final aim of the Old Covenant was to bring about the Messiah. It would have been entirely useless today.

 

[BABerean2]

It is taught that if the Old Covenant were still in effect, then it would not be called the "Old Covenant" in contrast to the "New Covenant." In Hebrews 8:13, we find this passage:

According to the New Testament, the final aim of the Old Covenant was to bring about the Messiah. It would have been entirely useless today.

You are correct.

There cannot be an Old Covenant in place today, since the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in the same way my chainsaw has made my axe obsolete.

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Zion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

.

 

[ralliann]

I said that I agreed that the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, so I said nothing contrary to Hebrews 8:13, but rather I spoke in regard to how it should be understood. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant involves following God's law, so 8:13 should not be interpreted as speaking about God's law becoming obsolete, but rather it only speaks about the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete.


Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until the end of his ministry, so everything that he taught up until that point was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant, and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching by word or by example, but rather the the New Covenant still involves following God's law.

The problem in these discussions is everyone leaves out John's ministry among the Jew's. God's wrath was coming upon the Jew's, not the Gentiles. It was near at hand, but always ignored by both Messianics and others in these discussions. Torah vs covenants found recorded in the Torah. They all get blurred together.
God's wrath as foretold in the Mosaic covenant was coming. John came to warn it was near. Baptism for the remission of sin, for an ESCAPE FROM THE WRATH That was coming on JEW'S. This is the focus in the Gospel to the Jew's.
Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;.

In Deuteronomy 10:12-16, God commanded them to circumcise their hearts and obey His law.

John came preaching God's wrath...... Apply it in your understanding of the Gospel to the Jew's... A crooked and perverse generation..
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

In Deuteronomy 30:1-8, it prophesies a time when Israel would return from exile, God would circumcise their hearts, and they would return to obedience to God's law. In Ezekiel 36:26-28 and Jeremiah 31:33, the context is in regard to Israel returning from exile and the New Covenant and say that God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us to obey God's law, and that He will put His law in our minds and write it on our hearts, so these verses are describing the Spirit as circumcising our hearts. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those with uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey God's law. So the New Covenant is all about returning to obedience to God's law.

What does God say about his wrath upon them? Again John's baptism continued under the apostles to the Jew's. Warning to flee the wrath nigh at hand.

I will leave the rest of your post unaddressed. When you acknowledge the baptism of John and salvation for the Jew from the wrath he preached was coming on that generation, we might be able to have a fuller conversation.

As it was foundational to their ministry among the Jew's.
Acts 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Yet, it always gets left out and ignored?

 

[earthmover]

Deut 33:8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
The sadducee's were the sola scriptura crowd among the sects. They only accepted Moses Torah as a source of law to judge the disputes among the people. They had no further jurisdiction as rulers and governors, and did not make it a practice to go beyond it, like the other sects did.

Rem, at that time to this time and beyond, Israel have been partially blinded. With the temple burnt down in 70 AD, they had/have NO way to cover their sins. Thus, the oral Talmud came about. A false theology in which many Rabbis are leading their countrymen. The covenants of old have not been forgotten by GOD, but rather will be joined by the NEW Covenant Jeremiah speaks of during the last half of Daniel's 70th Week or the start of "Jacob'sTroubles".

Earthmover

 

[ralliann]

Rem, at that time to this time and beyond, Israel have been partially blinded. With the temple burnt down in 70 AD, they had/have NO way to cover their sins. Thus, the oral Talmud came about. A false theology in which many Rabbis are leading their countrymen. The covenants of old have not been forgotten by GOD, but rather will be joined by the NEW Covenant Jeremiah speaks of during the last half of Daniel's 70th Week or the start of "Jacob'sTroubles".

Earthmover

Well their traditions became law under the Roman Emperor. A new Sanhedrin was given to the Pharisees at Yavneh. What had been their traditions, did indeed become law via Roman rule of Judea. All other sects were set under the Pharisees at that time.