The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

[Timtofly]

Wait... so soon can mean anything we want it to mean?

That seems to be your claim. Today, tomorrow, 40 years.

How important is it to you?

 

[parousia70]

Why are you changing the subject?

Its not a subject change... it simply puts the nails into the coffin of your argument against my view... which is clearly why you won't answer, and continue to dodge, the question..

 

[parousia70]

How important is it to you?

There are over 100 NT passages admonishing fist century Christians to be ready for His coming as it was to be soon, was at hand, about to take place etc... I'd say anything taught in scripture over 100 times is pretty important, wouldn't you?

Can you name any other Biblical doctrine explicitly taught in over 100 separate and distinct passages?

I can't.

Jesus and the Apostles clearly thought it was of the utmost importance.
I think it wise to find important what THEY found important... don't you?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Its not a subject change... it simply puts the nails into the coffin of your argument against my view... which is clearly why you won't answer, and continue to dodge, the question..

Mark 13:34 KJV: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

I don't have an argument.
Christ said his journey would be long.
You say it was very short.

You just didn't witness his coming nor can you provide any witnesses because there was none.

But for some strange reason you feel the need to preach he came in 70 AD. You claim all the signs of his coming were fulfilled. You claim the stars of heaven fell unto the earth. You claim the resurrection of the dead has already taken place.

You just don't have any witnesses for anything nor have you witnessed anything.

And for what reason do you preach he came in 70 AD?
So no one would watch for Christ.
You don't want the porter to watch.
Mark 13:34 KJV: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

You tell the porter Christ has already come and gone. There is nothing for you to watch.
Like I said. What your doing doesn't look good.
Your work looks very deceitful.

 

[parousia70]

Mark 13:34 KJV: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

I don't have an argument.
Christ said his journey would be long.

Yet in every parable of the "long Journey and return" He returns within the lifetimes of, and directly to the Same people alive when He left... Not some other people 20 centuries removed... That's strictly a later invention of men, found nowhere in scripture.

You say it was very short.

The writer of Hebrews said it was VERY short:
Hebrews 10:37
Matthew Says it was short:
Matthew 3:7
Mark Says it was short:
Mark 1:15
Luke Says it was Short:
Luke 21:22
Paul says it was Short:
Romans 16:20
Peter Says it was Short:
1 Peter 4:7
James Said it was short:
James 5:8
John Says it was Short:
Revelation 1:1-3

And, of course, Jesus says it was Short
Matthew 24:34

You just don't have any witnesses for anything nor have you witnessed anything.

Rather, I have Apostolic EyeWitness account of the First century arrival of The Tribulation of Jesus Christ and Day of the Lord, Apostolic eyewitness testimony which you choose to reject, because accepting the text at face value would require you to change your view to match the scripture.

Revelation 1:9-10
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

 

[shilohsfoal]

Yet in every parable of the "long Journey and return" He returns within the lifetimes of, and directly to the Same people alive when He left... Not some other people 20 centuries removed... That's strictly a later invention of men, found nowhere in scripture.


The writer of Hebrews said it was VERY short:
Hebrews 10:37
Matthew Says it was short:
Matthew 3:7
Mark Says it was short:
Mark 1:15
Luke Says it was Short:
Luke 21:22
Paul says it was Short:
Romans 16:20
Peter Says it was Short:
1 Peter 4:7
James Said it was short:
James 5:8
John Says it was Short:
Revelation 1:1-3



Rather, I have Apostolic EyeWitness account of the First century arrival of the Tribulation and Day of the Lord, Apostolic eyewitness testimony which you choose to reject.

Revelation 1:9-10
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Mark 13:34 KJV: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Christ was speaking to his apostles.
And no, Christ did not return in thier lifetimes as you claim. If he had, they would have told us.

Like I said. You provide no witnesses because there were none.
The only reason you preach Christ has come is because you don't want anyone to do as Christ commanded. You don't want anyone to watch for any of the signs he said would take place before his coming.

Mark 13:34 KJV: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

He commanded us to watch but you don't want anyone to watch.
Mark 13:37 KJV: And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Your work looks very deceitful.

 

[shilohsfoal]

There are over 100 NT passages admonishing fist century Christians to be ready for His coming as it was to be soon, was at hand, about to take place etc... I'd say anything taught in scripture over 100 times is pretty important, wouldn't you?

Can you name any other Biblical doctrine explicitly taught in over 100 separate and distinct passages?

I can't.

Jesus and the Apostles clearly thought it was of the utmost importance.
I think it wise to find important what THEY found important... don't you?

Yea, it makes me wonder who you are working for.

Mark 13:37 KJV: And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[parousia70]

Mark 13:34 KJV: For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Christ was speaking to his apostles.

Correct. Not to us, but to them.

And no, Christ did not return in thier lifetimes as you claim. If he had, they would have told us.

He had to have, or He and the Apostles are all false prophets.
You preach apostolic error, and a savior that issues empty threats. I reject the notion, as should every honest Bible expositor.
Who is it you are working for when you preach the belief that the apostles were WRONG, and Jesus LIED??

Like I said. You provide no witnesses because there were none.

Rather, John Witnessed it and told His flocks it was happening before their eyes.

But again, you preach John was WRONG!
Talk about deceitful!

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 21:33-45

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

This passage is universally understood by all Honest Bible expositors to have been fulfilled in the 1st century.

Even the Chief Priests and Pharisees UNDERSTOOD He was speaking about what was to befall THEM back THEN, via "The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"

Odd how some here still Don't.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Correct. Not to us, but to them.


He had to have, or He and the Apostles are all false prophets.
You preach apostolic error, and a savior that issues empty threats. I reject the notion, as should every honest Bible expositor.
Who is it you are working for when you preach the belief that the apostles were WRONG, and Jesus LIED??



Rather, John Witnessed it and told His flocks it was happening before their eyes.

But again, you preach John was WRONG!
Talk about deceitful!

You say christ returned before Peter died which was in 64-66 ce and if he didn't you accuse Jesus and the apostles of being false prophets.

So exactly what was the date you say christ came before peter died?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Correct. Not to us, but to them.


He had to have, or He and the Apostles are all false prophets.
You preach apostolic error, and a savior that issues empty threats. I reject the notion, as should every honest Bible expositor.
Who is it you are working for when you preach the belief that the apostles were WRONG, and Jesus LIED??



Rather, John Witnessed it and told His flocks it was happening before their eyes.

But again, you preach John was WRONG!
Talk about deceitful!

Yes John witnessed new jerusalem coming down from heaven in a vision.
So what year are you claiming new jerusalem came down from heaven?

Was it before Peter died in 64-66 ad?

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 21:33-45

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

This passage is universally understood by all Honest Bible expositors to have been fulfilled in the 1st century.

Even the Chief Priests and Pharisees UNDERSTOOD He was speaking about what was to befall THEM back THEN, via "The coming of the Lord of the Vineyard"

Odd how some here still Don't.

So either Rome was the recepiant, or one other plausible nation.

It was not Rome. God has given it to the current living nation of Israel. The promise was always to the seed of Abraham. It was never to a Gentile nation.

Daniel prophecied that the world would be ruled by Gentiles. It was never going to be the Jews. The Jews as a collective nation rejected God and God’s plan. That is why God scattered 10 tribes and only left a remnant 2 in the land of Palestine. Any student of prophecy should understand those facts. Israel as the keeper of the vinyard failed. When Jesus came, they did kill the Son. But the 1st century was not the end. God set up his bride, the church. Never was part of any prophecy. Never really will be. Call the church an addition to prophecy. Christ was the mountain, the church, the body, "grass roots", "we the people". Not a nation, but the population that makes up nations. That is the church, that is the world. It is a spiritual body, not a physical one. Right now we are the temple, but soon all in Christ will be in the temple of God. This is where God on the throne is. All those no longer on the earth are waiting for that last moment when the church will be glorified as one body. It is one body, not a physical kingdom or government on earth.

The vinyard has been given back to a nation. The final harvest is about to begin. The church will only watch. The wicked will be destroyed in their wickedness.

 

[parousia70]

You say christ returned before Peter died which was in 64-66 ce and if he didn't you accuse Jesus and the apostles of being false prophets.

So exactly what was the date you say christ came before peter died?

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

 

[parousia70]

The promise was always to the seed of Abraham.

Which according to Scripture, is Jesus:
Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

And By extension, Christians:
Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

 

[parousia70]

So either Rome was the recepiant, or one other plausible nation.

Yes... the Chosen, Holy Nation of Royal Priests:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

 

[shilohsfoal]

Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

So you say Jesus came in his kingdom., WHEN?
Surely since you say he came into his kingdom, you have a date he did it?

 

[shilohsfoal]

Correct. Not to us, but to them.


He had to have, or He and the Apostles are all false prophets.
You preach apostolic error, and a savior that issues empty threats. I reject the notion, as should every honest Bible expositor.
Who is it you are working for when you preach the belief that the apostles were WRONG, and Jesus LIED??



Rather, John Witnessed it and told His flocks it was happening before their eyes.

But again, you preach John was WRONG!
Talk about deceitful!

Do you stand by your word that Jesus is a false prophet if he didn't do exactly what you claim he did?

 

[claninja]

Posts #481 and #482 where he falsely accuses Keras and timtofly of teaching the apostles were wrong when it's parousia70 who's claiming they were wrong by claiming they believed the return of Christ was so near it was in their life time. Yet we read Paul stating very clearly that His return will not come until there first comes the apostasy and the man of sin will be revealed, etc - which clearly shows Paul not expecting the Lord's return before the very signs he himself gave us.

Parousia did not say the apostles were wrong in either of those posts. Parousia appears to be stating the futurist argument requires the apostles teachings of near, soon, at hand to be wrong. two entirely different things.


Paul clearly states the fulfillment of the ages had come up on the 1st century generation
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Peter clearly states the end of all things was at hand in the 1st century, and that they were living in the last days
1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

acts 2:16-17
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

John clearly states they were living in the last hour in the 1st century
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

James clearly states the coming of the Lord was at hand in the first century.
James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

(just a little heads up, Keras, in other threads, has stated the apostles were wrong in regards to their time statements).

In regards to these statements, futurists are required to either state the apostles were wrong, or that "at hand", "near", or "soon", do not actually mean 'at hand', 'near', or 'soon, but must spiritualize them into "from God's persepective", even though God can, and has before, explained when things are far off (daniel 8:26) versus near (revelation 22:10).

 

[parousia70]

Do you stand by your word that Jesus is a false prophet if he didn't do exactly what you claim he did?

Do you believe He can be a true prophet if He fails to Fulfill His word?
Seems to me you do.

Scripture says otherwise:
Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

 

[keras]

(just a little heads up, Keras, in other threads, has stated the apostles were wrong in regards to their time statements).

I don't think I put it quite like that!
However, Jesus has not yet Returned, so how 'soon to happen' was rendered in our Bibles, did not mean soon; in the first century.