The Great Tribulation: 66-70 AD, or

parousia70

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I don't think I put it quite like that!
However, Jesus has not yet Returned, so how 'soon to happen' was rendered in our Bibles, did not mean soon; in the first century.

That's purely Circular reasoning...

The Biblical approach would to accept the text at face value, understand Jesus and the Apostles could not be wrong about the 1st century timing, and therefore it must have taken place, on time, as prophesied.

And We know from scripture that Jesus Means for us to understand "near" in Human terms when he says something is "Near" and He does not mean thousands of years away..

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
 
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shilohsfoal

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Do you believe He can be a true prophet if He fails to Fulfill His word?
Seems to me you do.

Scripture says otherwise:
Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Your the one who is saying Jesus is a false prophet if he didn't do exactly what you say.

Now answer this.
According to your theory, who is going to be a kingdom of priests to God?

Exodus 19:6 And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."

Is it the people who God was speaking to in the wilderness or is it someone else who might hear his voice much later than when he said it?


Just remember, you are the one who accused Jesus of being a false prophet if he didn't do as you say.
 
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parousia70

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So you say Jesus came in his kingdom., WHEN?
Surely since you say he came into his kingdom, you have a date he did it?

In the events of AD 66-70.
That was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5).

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
 
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parousia70

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Now answer this.
According to your theory, who is going to be a kingdom of priests to God?

Exodus 19:6 And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."

Is it the people who God was speaking to in the wilderness or is it someone else who might hear his voice much later than when he said it?

Both. why?
National Israel, formed into the Wilderness with Moses and Given the law WAS a Holy nation of Priests... Such is undeniable.

The Church, The Israel of God today, is the Sole Continuation of that Nation... But the original recipients aren't excluded.

Are you saying it EXCLUDES the people in the Wilderness Who He spoke this to??

Now Answer this:

Genesis 7:4
For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”

Is this passage going to come to pass seven days from now?
 
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shilohsfoal

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In the events of AD 66-70.
That was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history, and was, unquestionably, the one Christ's followers spoke of mere decades before it transpired. This was the same Day of the Lord concerning which the apostles stated they would remain alive unto its passing (1 Thess 5:2-4,23; Phil 1:6,10; Heb 10:25,36-39; 1 Cor 1:7-8; 1 Cor 5:5).

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

OK the Romans were given the kingdom at that time
The Muslims were given the kingdom for a very very long time.
Today the same people who had it before 70 AD has the kingdom again and they still reject him and they are not powder.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Both. why?

Are you saying it EXCLUDES the people in the Wilderness Who He spoke this to??

How could he be speaking to both?
He told those Israelites who he never allowed to enter the kingdom that they would be a kingdom of priests. Peter and Paul were not standing there when he said it.You were not standing there so you can't claim he was speaking of you.

Exodus 19:6 And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."
 
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shilohsfoal

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Matthew 16:27-28
For the Son of Man will come in His Father’s glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Oh, and by the way. John saw Christ come into his kingdom. He saw it while he was on the island of Patmos about two years before he died.
This is John's account of what he saw.

Revelation 19:11 Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war.
Revelation 19:12 He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows.
Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God.

So Yea. John saw Christ come into his kingdom before he died.
 
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keras

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That's purely Circular reasoning...

The Biblical approach would to accept the text at face value, understand Jesus and the Apostles could not be wrong about the 1st century timing, and therefore it must have taken place, on time, as prophesied.

And We know from scripture that Jesus Means for us to understand "near" in Human terms when he says something is "Near" and He does not mean thousands of years away..

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
No, it is actually common sense.
The 'things' Jesus was referring to was the 'budding of the fig tree'. His prophecy about the establishment of the Jewish State of Israel. This 'budding' cannot refer to anything else, it surely did not apply the the first Century Jews!

We DO have a future and God has told us all about it, to think what He said is of no use or value to us today, is an extremely bad way of thinking.
 
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Zao is life

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Parousia did not say the apostles were wrong in either of those posts. Parousia appears to be stating the futurist argument requires the apostles teachings of near, soon, at hand to be wrong. two entirely different things.


Paul clearly states the fulfillment of the ages had come up on the 1st century generation
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

Peter clearly states the end of all things was at hand in the 1st century, and that they were living in the last days
1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.

acts 2:16-17
No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.

John clearly states they were living in the last hour in the 1st century
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

James clearly states the coming of the Lord was at hand in the first century.
James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near. Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!

(just a little heads up, Keras, in other threads, has stated the apostles were wrong in regards to their time statements).

In regards to these statements, futurists are required to either state the apostles were wrong, or that "at hand", "near", or "soon", do not actually mean 'at hand', 'near', or 'soon, but must spiritualize them into "from God's persepective", even though God can, and has before, explained when things are far off (daniel 8:26) versus near (revelation 22:10).
The apostles were as wrong as we are to be believe in the imminent return of Christ, and as any generation has been.

They were not wrong and we are not wrong.
 
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Zao is life

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True. Which also shows us that the apostles were as wrong as we are to believe in the imminent return of Christ, and as any generation has been.

They were not wrong and we are not wrong.
 
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Zao is life

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Parousia did not say the apostles were wrong in either of those posts. Parousia appears to be stating the futurist argument requires the apostles teachings of near, soon, at hand to be wrong. two entirely different things.


Paul clearly states the fulfillment of the ages had come up on the 1st century generation
1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

In regards to these statements, futurists are required to either state the apostles were wrong, or that "at hand", "near", or "soon", do not actually mean 'at hand', 'near', or 'soon, but must spiritualize them into "from God's persepective", even though God can, and has before, explained when things are far off (daniel 8:26) versus near (revelation 22:10).

That's absolute nonsense. Christ's coming is the fulfillment of the Ages, and He came once as the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world and He will return as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the King of kings and Lord of lords.

There is absolutely no way any generation who was or is expecting the imminent return of the Lord could have been wrong, because He said to us,""But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.

"The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he does not look for him, and in an hour which he does not know." Mat 24:36, 40.

In any generation, those who teach the Lord's flock not to expect His return at any moment are not in any way, shape or form good shepherds of the Lord's flock. They are useless shepherds.

The apostles were as wrong as we are to be believe in the imminent return of Christ, and as any generation has been.

They were not wrong and we are not wrong.
 
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claninja

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The apostles were as wrong as we are to be believe in the imminent return of Christ, and as any generation has been.

They were not wrong and we are not wrong.

This doesn't address your untrue accusation against Parousia.

That's absolute nonsense.

So is futurism's spiritualizing away of the meanings of "near", "soon", and "at hand".

Christ's coming is the fulfillment of the Ages, and He came once as the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world and He will return as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the King of kings and Lord of lords.

Christ's 1st coming was at the end of the ages:

hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The end of the ages had come up on Paul's generation:

1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

There is absolutely no way any generation who was or is expecting the imminent return of the Lord could have been wrong, because He said to us,""But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father.

Imminent means about to happen. One cannot declare something imminent, if it is actually not about to happen, that would be a lie.

Thus futurists are required to spiritualize terms like "soon", "near", or "at hand" into from "God's point of view", even though God can tell us when things are distant or near, and has in scripture.

The apostles were as wrong as we are to be believe in the imminent return of Christ, and as any generation has been.

They were not wrong and we are not wrong.

So the next time you are waiting for a prescription at the pharmacy or your car to get fixed at the body shop and they tell you it will ready "soon", that can mean 2,000 years then right?



 
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jgr

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How could he be speaking to both?
He told those Israelites who he never allowed to enter the kingdom that they would be a kingdom of priests. Peter and Paul were not standing there when he said it.You were not standing there so you can't claim he was speaking of you.

Exodus 19:6 And unto Me you shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you are to speak to the Israelites."

Was God speaking to Peter when Peter applied the description in Exodus 19:6 to the Church?

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 
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shilohsfoal

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Was God speaking to Peter when Peter applied the description in Exodus 19:6 to the Church?

1 Peter 2
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

And that's the point I'm making right there.
God spoke to a group of people who he never gave eyes to see or ears to hear.
Yet Peter heard and understood it thousands of years after God first spoke it.

Just because Christ may have said something to the apostles, doesnt necessarily mean the message is for them. That message could be specifically for others thousands of years after he said it and could be understood by them.

Many people don't consider this.


Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Even though Jesus may have said this nearly 2000 years ago, it may be heard and understood by a group of Israelis within the next few years.
 
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jgr

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And that's the point I'm making right there.
God spoke to a group of people who he never gave eyes to see or ears to hear.
Yet Peter heard and understood it thousands of years after God first spoke it.

Just because Christ may have said something to the apostles, doesnt necessarily mean the message is for them. That message could be specifically for others thousands of years after he said it and could be understood by them.

Many people don't consider this.


Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Even though Jesus may have said this nearly 2000 years ago, it may be heard and understood by a group of Israelis within the next few years.

Is 1 Peter 2:9 indisputably and exclusively for the Church?
 
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shilohsfoal

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Is 1 Peter 2:9 indisputably and exclusively for the Church?

I don't believe the church as the term is often used is a race.But that perticular group that would be a kingdom of priests would be in Christ.(the church).

Those to whom it was first spoken(exodus 19:6) all died in the wilderness without ever being born again. How likely are they to see the kingdom of God?But that's not to say thier descendents wouldnt be those mentioned in 1 Peter 2:9.

To be honest with you, I believe something most people don't believe. I believe all of those who are resurrected in the first resurrection, who did not worship the beast or his image, are all Israelis.

I also believe these saints mentioned in this verse are all Israelis.
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever--yes, forever and ever.'
Because I believe the little horn that persecutes them is our modern day country called Israel.

Time will soon tell if I'm right or wrong about this.
 
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Zao is life

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This doesn't address your untrue accusation against Parousia.

So is futurism's spiritualizing away of the meanings of "near", "soon", and "at hand".

Christ's 1st coming was at the end of the ages:

hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The end of the ages had come up on Paul's generation:

1 corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

Imminent means about to happen. One cannot declare something imminent, if it is actually not about to happen, that would be a lie.

Thus futurists are required to spiritualize terms like "soon", "near", or "at hand" into from "God's point of view", even though God can tell us when things are distant or near, and has in scripture.


So the next time you are waiting for a prescription at the pharmacy or your car to get fixed at the body shop and they tell you it will ready "oon", that can mean 2,000 years then right?

Parousia had made that accusation against another and the fact of the matter is it applies to him, not to any other he levels that accusation against.

Your arguments remain ridiculous:

* The Lord said no one knows when the day or hour of his return is.

Therefore His return has been imminent since his ascension and will remain imminent until He returns.

* As I've already shown in a previous post, the Greek word translated as "soon" in the Revelation can also be translated as "these things when they come, will unfold speedily, will occur rapidly".

* Your theory falls flat where Paul says the man of sin is he "whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming", where Paul teaches the church that Christ's return will not come before this, and this will not come before the apostasy, the falling way from the faith on the part of many Christians.

All you have following your "return of Christ" is a Christianity continuing to grow and be accepted in the Gentile world, to the point where it became the official religion of the Byzantine Empire, and of the Western Roman Empire, and of many nations, and was spread by missionaries into the Americas and Africa, and as far East as South Korea. You have NO falling away, no man of sin seated in the temple of God (unless you're talking about the Pope, which is a debatable claim), but you still have no falling away or man of sin seated in the Temple declaring himself to be God and being destroyed by Christ at His return.

You have nothing, and your arguments are ridiculous.
 
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Zao is life

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To be honest with you, I believe something most people don't believe. I believe all of those who are resurrected in the first resurrection, who did not worship the beast or his image, are all Israelis.

I also believe these saints mentioned in this verse are all Israelis.
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever--yes, forever and ever.'
Because I believe the little horn that persecutes them is our modern day country called Israel.
I haven't "made up my mind" about it, but I have thought about the possibility that the beast from the earth with two horns like a lamb could very well be an Israel who has decided its "messiah" (who is not Jesus) has come, and its "messianic age" has come, and be persecuting Israeli Jews who believe in Jesus.

Also, Revelation 7 has multitudes of all peoples, nations and tongues - who had come out of great tribulation - in heaven, worshiping God. There's no reason, actually, to assume these are the same as the souls John saw as living and reigning with Christ after having being beheaded for their witness of Christ and refusal to receive the mark of the beast.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I haven't "made up my mind" about it, but I have thought about the possibility that the beast from the earth with two horns like a lamb could very well be an Israel who has decided its "messiah" (who is not Jesus) has come, and its "messianic age" has come, and be persecuting Israeli Jews who believe in Jesus.

it’s not national Israel. This beast is body of false prophets and Christs attacks the New Testament congregation after the testimony of the two witnesses for the purpose of salvation through the building of the church is finished.
 
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