Question for rapture people

[keras]

Do a thread on the two 'houses'. The majority here don't study their Old Testament so they don't have a clue about the two houses mentioned in God's Word.

It would require a book!
But I have written many short articles on the subject of Israel and how they divided into two Houses after Solomon died. They still remain separate, this is true for many reasons, the obvious one is how the House of Judah, the Jewish people; are still in rejection of Jesus.
The House of Israel, the ones Jesus came to save; Matthew 15:24, are the Christian peoples.

How do you feel about people like Lamad, who happily consign his fellow Christians to God's wrath, all who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory?

 

[nolidad]

Preface: I'm of the mind that there is no rapture. But I was wondering for those who believe in one, can you provide Old Testament proof that God or anyone else spoke of it? In Amos, it's said that God doesn't do anything except He reveal it to the prophets first. And please, if you're going to post, you can respond with something better than an abstract bit in Genesis where it's said that Enoch was taken up. OK? Thanks!

Well given the enormous amount of answers I did not read them all and will just address your opening statement.

There is no quote in the OT about a rapture happening.

there are two types of the rapture and yes one is enoch and the other is Elijah being caught up on a chariot!

But without getting into the arguments

of the timing of the rapture- the Bible is clear that there will be one!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Caught up is this:

ἁρπάζω
Transliteration
harpazō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἁρπάζω ἁρπαγέντα — 1x
ἁρπαγησόμεθα — 1x
ἁρπάζει — 2x
ἁρπάζειν — 2x
ἁρπάζοντες — 1x
ἁρπάζουσιν — 1x
ἁρπάσαι — 1x
ἁρπάσει — 1x
ἡρπάγη — 1x
ἥρπασεν — 1x
ἡρπάσθη — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).


The church is going to be grabbed off the earth at some point, and that is the rapture!

 

[iamlamad]

You have said it with your own mouth. YOU will stay. First Thes. 4:17 tells us that the rest of those alive and in Christ will be caught up. Since you have zero faith in being caught up, you will be left behind. It will be your own doing. While the Bride of Christ is rejoicing on the streets of Gold, you will be in panic mode wondering why you are left behind. But you will have to live with it - for it will be your own doing.

God has already told us the purpose: He will fill the earth with His wrath. You can stay behind and suffer His wrath of you choose - and you have already chosen. You are setting your OWN appointment with His wrath.

Thanks! I AM optimistic, because God is optimistic.

 

[nolidad]

It would require a book!
But I have written many short articles on the subject of Israel and how they divided into two Houses after Solomon died. They still remain separate, this is true for many reasons, the obvious one is how the House of Judah, the Jewish people; are still in rejection of Jesus.
The House of Israel, the ones Jesus came to save; Matthew 15:24, are the Christian peoples.

How do you feel about people like Lamad, who happily consign his fellow Christians to God's wrath, all who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory?

Still pushing that Aesops fable I see.

In the OT the Two houses are the houses of Judah and the house of Israel- all the people of Israel that are Jews!

Ez. 37: 19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

Jer. 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

The church was never under the Mosaic covenant! So the two houses are the house of Judah and the house of Israel which are still divided to this day- but will be rejoined!

 

[keras]

Who is the House of Israel?

A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.


Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26


The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.

If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7


In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.


God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!

An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.


This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27


The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14

The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever and the Jews are the only Israel.


Plainly, the Christian peoples are the House of Israel, the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, who must be the Christian peoples; or Jesus failed in His mission.

The Jews will never change and Bible prophecy says they will be virtually wiped out.

 

[Davy]

How do you feel about people like Lamad, who happily consign his fellow Christians to God's wrath, all who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory?

I know that our Lord Jesus is now, and has, prepared some for the end that know already during the tribulation they have a Testimony to give against the beast for Him. Possibly some of them may wake up when they hear that Testimony by The Holy Spirit. It's basically going to be GOD Himself speaking through His elect on earth via the cloven tongue of Pentecost. It will tick off the "dragon" and his.

 

[iamlamad]

Well given the enormous amount of answers I did not read them all and will just address your opening statement.

There is no quote in the OT about a rapture happening.

there are two types of the rapture and yes one is enoch and the other is Elijah being caught up on a chariot!

But without getting into the arguments

of the timing of the rapture- the Bible is clear that there will be one!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Caught up is this:

ἁρπάζω
Transliteration
harpazō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἁρπάζω ἁρπαγέντα — 1x
ἁρπαγησόμεθα — 1x
ἁρπάζει — 2x
ἁρπάζειν — 2x
ἁρπάζοντες — 1x
ἁρπάζουσιν — 1x
ἁρπάσαι — 1x
ἁρπάσει — 1x
ἡρπάγη — 1x
ἥρπασεν — 1x
ἡρπάσθη — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).


The church is going to be grabbed off the earth at some point, and that is the rapture!

TRUTH! Add this to what John wrote in chapter 14 about Jesus going to prepare places for us, and then coming to get us and take us to those homes he has prepared, the rapture will be followed by a trip to heaven. Pure and simple. We are pulled off the earth just before God pours out His wrath.

 

[iamlamad]

This is sheer pretentious rubbish. YOU will have to answer for it.

I WILL stay on this earth, it is my home and I serve the Lord here.
What earthly use would you be in heaven?

How could anyone have any "earthly" use in heaven? We will spend time rejoicing over our salvation, rejoicing over our mansions, and glorifying God. Then, after the week has ended and the Old Testament saints are resurrected, we will join with them at the Marriage and Supper in heaven. Then finally, after the marriage supper, we all get on white horses and return to earth With Christ.
Your word is out: you are going to stay. All I am saying is, while you are staying, the church is flying up to heaven. You COULD escape His wrath but it seems you would prefer to remain here. All I can say is, I hope this works out for you. You have made your choice.

 

[Davy]

TRUTH! Add this to what John wrote in chapter 14 about Jesus going to prepare places for us, and then coming to get us and take us to those homes he has prepared, the rapture will be followed by a trip to heaven. Pure and simple. We are pulled off the earth just before God pours out His wrath.

The John 14 Scripture is abused by the pre-trib rapture school also.

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Zechariah 14 reveals 'where' our Lord Jesus is coming back to. It is to this earth, at Jerusalem, bringing all His faithful saints with Him. His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, as written there. That is where He will receive His elect, bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven, and catching up the alive saints on earth, all on His way to that Mount of Olives. Acts 1 also confirms the Mount of Olives is where He will return to upon this earth, coming in like manner how He ascended to Heaven.


The Father's house is about Christ's future Millennial temple, ON EARTH. It's dimensions and area of layout are given in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters.

Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

 

[iamlamad]

The John 14 Scripture is abused by the pre-trib rapture school also.

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Zechariah 14 reveals 'where' our Lord Jesus is coming back to. It is to this earth, at Jerusalem, bringing all His faithful saints with Him. His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, as written there. That is where He will receive His elect, bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven, and catching up the alive saints on earth, all on His way to that Mount of Olives. Acts 1 also confirms the Mount of Olives is where He will return to upon this earth, coming in like manner how He ascended to Heaven.


The Father's house is about Christ's future Millennial temple, ON EARTH. It's dimensions and area of layout are given in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters.

Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

You used the wrong word: not "abused" but rather "understood." There have been countless people who have died and gone to heaven but got prayed back to their bodies - that have told us countless times about the mansions in heaven. Some have seen their OWN mansion. Some have seen some mansions under construction. Some more recent have been told all the mansions are finished. There is no more building going on. As a side journey, some saw preparations for the marriage supper: tables spread along the River of Life as far as the eye could see, with chairs at the tables and NAMES on each chair. Even more recently people have been told the preparations for the marriage supper are complete: heaven is only waiting on the saints to arrive!

That is where He will receive His elect, bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven, and catching up the alive saints on earth, all on His way to that Mount of Olives. Sorry, my friend, but is is myth. Neither does it fit the Jewish wedding. Neither does it fit any scripture. The saints will indeed return from heaven AFTER the marriage and supper. Did you not read?

Luke 12:36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

Note, He is returning from a WEDDING. This is exactly the way John shows us in Rev. 19.

Sorry, but Paul's timing of his rapture or gathering from 1 Thes. 4 & 5 does not fit your theory. Paul tells us the rapture will come just a moment before God's wrath is poured out. While those alive and in Christ are being raised, at that same moment those NOT in Christ are caught in sudden destruction. Then Paul tells us that destruction is the start of Wrath - telling us that God is not making any appointments for us with His wrath - those appointments with His wrath are for those left behind.

In chapter 4 Paul wrote, "so shall we ever be with the Lord." In chapter 5 Paul put it in different words: "we shall live together with Him."

Paul's "suddenly" will begin on a day just like today - a normal day - when people are thinking peace and safety - when SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves! The bringing together of the elements of those long dead bodies will cause a worldwide earthquake. (Mat. 27: the earth did quake ... and the graves were opened) That earthquake will be Paul's sudden destruction. It will also be the earthquake at the 6th seal - the very seal where the day of God's wrath begins. Those who are alive may just begin to feel the ground shake, but will get caught up, leaving the sudden destruction to those left behind.

John confirms this timing in Rev. 7 where John saw this great crowd, too large to number, IN HEAVEN. It was the just raptured church; raptured a moment before the 6th seal earthquake.

Don't be led astray by the gathering by angels in Matthew 24. This is not Paul's rapture - it is probably God gathering all of the descendents of Jacob back to Israel. He will gather from heaven and earth.

Therefore, at Paul's rapture, the destination is heaven, not the Mount of Olives! A moment after the rapture, the Day of His wrath begins - not ends! The entire 70th week is WRATH.

If you wish to remain behind for His wrath, that is between you and God.

Yes, AFTER the 7 years, AFTER the days of Tribulation, AFTER the marriage and supper in heaven, THEN the resurrected saints will descended with Jesus to the battle of Armageddon on white horses. Jesus touching down on mount Olives may just be after the battle.

 

[keras]

How could anyone have any "earthly" use in heaven? We will spend time rejoicing over our salvation, rejoicing over our mansions, and glorifying God. Then, after the week has ended and the Old Testament saints are resurrected, we will join with them at the Marriage and Supper in heaven. Then finally, after the marriage supper, we all get on white horses and return to earth With Christ.
Your word is out: you are going to stay. All I am saying is, while you are staying, the church is flying up to heaven. You COULD escape His wrath but it seems you would prefer to remain here. All I can say is, I hope this works out for you. You have made your choice.

This scenario is beyond anything dreamed up by Hollywood or writers of comic books.
It is not what the Bible tells us will happen. God's holy people never leave the earth and we will face trials and the Great Tribulation. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove this.

Your preference is something that cannot happen and your promotion of the false 'rapture' theory is an indictment against you.

Let me tell you, that I look forward with great anticipation to what will happen, as the Lord promises to bless and protect His faithful people, as we display His glory, Ezekiel 39:27 and spread the good news of the coming Kingdom; until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:19-20

 

[nolidad]

Who is the House of Israel?

A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us that Israel was to be cast off and divorced from God. They were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of captivity. In fact, God told them He would “betroth thee unto Me in righteousness” (Hosea 2:19). The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in the field.) Thus, at first the name prophesies that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose—to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply her as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.


Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.

In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people Israel, scattering them in the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be Christians known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26


The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah.

If people realized that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, instead of those dealing with the lost House of Israel, they would not have made this mistake. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets uniformly prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while severe judgments were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.

Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7


In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.


God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!

An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed and never again be built into a vessel of honour.

At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site itself was cursed.


This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27


The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14

The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people wrongly think that the original House of Israel is lost forever and the Jews are the only Israel.


Plainly, the Christian peoples are the House of Israel, the Overcomers for God, as Jacob was. Jesus came to save the House of Israel, Matthew 15:24, who must be the Christian peoples; or Jesus failed in His mission.

The Jews will never change and Bible prophecy says they will be virtually wiped out.

All of t his is a pep talk based on an allegorical reinterpretation of SCripture!

Israel is composed of 12 tribes not ten! (that is the whole house of Israel) Israel can never be the church though Isrfaelis can be part of teh church which is Jesus body! No where in SCripture are we told to think of th e10 lost tribes as the gentiles and Jews who form one body in christ!

God is going to fulfill the new covenant with the entire 12 tribes of Israel as promised in Jeremiah 31.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

this is not some mystery prophesy about the future church. NOr is the prophecy of Ezekiel 37 when God said he would rejoing the house of Israel and the house of Judah! We are partakers of this covenant not taker overs!

 

[nolidad]

TRUTH! Add this to what John wrote in chapter 14 about Jesus going to prepare places for us, and then coming to get us and take us to those homes he has prepared, the rapture will be followed by a trip to heaven. Pure and simple. We are pulled off the earth just before God pours out His wrath.

What is truly amazing is how exactly the church age follows the wedding ceremony of Jesus day to a tee!

The match is arranged (God gives to Jesus the church)
The bride price is paid (Jesus blood)
The groom goes away to prepare a place for him and his bride in his Fathers home.
When the father approves the groom comes in quiet to fetch his bride. (the rapture)
The wedding ceremony takes place in from of the witnesses (the firends of the bridegroom)
Then they travel to celebrate the wedding feast!

I am so saddened that eschatology which is supposed to bring great joy has been poisoned since the time of origen and Arius and especially Augustine. Darby and others brought back to life the first and 2nd century truth of the what is now called "dispensational pre tribulation eschatology".

Many errors were made because they made to many guesses without fuller knowledge. (C. Larkin was a big one for that) but we have a much clearere picture now, especially since Israel was resotred to her land in 48 and got back Jerusalem in 67.

 

[iamlamad]

This scenario is beyond anything dreamed up by Hollywood or writers of comic books.
It is not what the Bible tells us will happen. God's holy people never leave the earth and we will face trials and the Great Tribulation. Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 prove this.

Your preference is something that cannot happen and your promotion of the false 'rapture' theory is an indictment against you.

Let me tell you, that I look forward with great anticipation to what will happen, as the Lord promises to bless and protect His faithful people, as we display His glory, Ezekiel 39:27 and spread the good news of the coming Kingdom; until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:19-20

If you wish to stay behind and "tribulate," - go through the days of great tribulation - that will be between you and God - but PLEASE don't try to persuade anyone else to stay behind in God's wrath!
Daniel 7 is for HIS people: descendants of Jacob. The church will be gone - that is - all but you and others who on purpose wish to stay behind. Rev. 13 is for those left behind. John shows us this in chapter 12 by saying only a remnant is left. The pretrib rapture will take out the main load. Only those who are not born again or born again but don't wish to escape will be left as a remnant.

Our differences is not because we use different bibles: it is how we read and understand the bible.

 

[iamlamad]

What is truly amazing is how exactly the church age follows the wedding ceremony of Jesus day to a tee!

The match is arranged (God gives to Jesus the church)
The bride price is paid (Jesus blood)
The groom goes away to prepare a place for him and his bride in his Fathers home.
When the father approves the groom comes in quiet to fetch his bride. (the rapture)
The wedding ceremony takes place in from of the witnesses (the firends of the bridegroom)
Then they travel to celebrate the wedding feast!

I am so saddened that eschatology which is supposed to bring great joy has been poisoned since the time of origen and Arius and especially Augustine. Darby and others brought back to life the first and 2nd century truth of the what is now called "dispensational pre tribulation eschatology".

Many errors were made because they made to many guesses without fuller knowledge. (C. Larkin was a big one for that) but we have a much clearere picture now, especially since Israel was resotred to her land in 48 and got back Jerusalem in 67.

Agreed! Good post.

 

[nolidad]

The John 14 Scripture is abused by the pre-trib rapture school also.

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV

Zechariah 14 reveals 'where' our Lord Jesus is coming back to. It is to this earth, at Jerusalem, bringing all His faithful saints with Him. His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, as written there. That is where He will receive His elect, bringing the asleep saints with Him from Heaven, and catching up the alive saints on earth, all on His way to that Mount of Olives. Acts 1 also confirms the Mount of Olives is where He will return to upon this earth, coming in like manner how He ascended to Heaven.


The Father's house is about Christ's future Millennial temple, ON EARTH. It's dimensions and area of layout are given in the Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters.

Ezek 47:6-10
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
KJV

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

Once again because you accept the retranslation of the word of God you have confused the millenial kingdom with the New Jerusalem.

If you wish to know what the New Jerusalem is like, here it is:

Rev. 20:
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And you do not even read the very verses you seek to use to disprove the truth of the Bible!

Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us. Where is He now ??? Heaven. And since He hs gone to prepare a place for us He will come again and receive unto Himself that where He is (not will be) there we will be also!!!!

And no Jesus will not touch down at eh Mount of Olives! He will first descend to Petra where the Jews who fled Israel have gathered and werew protected by God for 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 63:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Bozrah is Petra! And the Antichrist marshals his forces at Armeggedon and then marches on Petra!

Jesus fights the antichrist back to Jerusalem and when He defeats him- Jesus ascends the mount of olives, a great earthquake occurs!

 

[ewq1938]

Bozrah is Petra! And the Antichrist marshals his forces at Armeggedon and then marches on Petra!

No, the battle of Armageddon is fought at Armageddon. Petra is not involved.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

When Christ arrives there, Satan's armies are already there and ready.

 

[iamlamad]

No, the battle of Armageddon is fought at Armageddon. Petra is not involved.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

When Christ arrives there, Satan's armies are already there and ready.

Make no mistake here: Either before Armageddon or after, Jesus will set those that fled free in Bozrah:

Isaiah 63
Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Isaiah 34:6
The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

 

[summerville]

It would require a book!
But I have written many short articles on the subject of Israel and how they divided into two Houses after Solomon died. They still remain separate, this is true for many reasons, the obvious one is how the House of Judah, the Jewish people; are still in rejection of Jesus.
The House of Israel, the ones Jesus came to save; Matthew 15:24, are the Christian peoples.

How do you feel about people like Lamad, who happily consign his fellow Christians to God's wrath, all who reject the 'rapture to heaven' theory?

Why are you saying Israel was Christian?

 

[summerville]

Once again because you accept the retranslation of the word of God you have confused the millenial kingdom with the New Jerusalem.

If you wish to know what the New Jerusalem is like, here it is:

Rev. 20:
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

And you do not even read the very verses you seek to use to disprove the truth of the Bible!

Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us. Where is He now ??? Heaven. And since He hs gone to prepare a place for us He will come again and receive unto Himself that where He is (not will be) there we will be also!!!!

And no Jesus will not touch down at eh Mount of Olives! He will first descend to Petra where the Jews who fled Israel have gathered and werew protected by God for 3 1/2 years.

Isaiah 63:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
63 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Bozrah is Petra! And the Antichrist marshals his forces at Armeggedon and then marches on Petra!

Jesus fights the antichrist back to Jerusalem and when He defeats him- Jesus ascends the mount of olives, a great earthquake occurs!

Nope. Bozrah is NOT Petra. Bozrah was in Edom.. Petra is in Jordan. Look at a map.