Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

[DaDad]

... four kings ... The Kings are: Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander, the end times Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire.

My second grade teacher insisted that FIVE≠FOUR. I tried to argue but it was no use ...

Dan. 2: 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
Dan. 2:45 Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Please check my math. It was never my strong point.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

It is because you do not accept the fact that Daniel was not really talking about King Nebuchadnezzar but his spiritual ruler - the principality and power of Satan possessed at that time. The metals represented Satan's kingdom and power throughout time opposing Christ's kingdom. And at the time of the end, Satan's iron power working with the pottery clay which representing men. This is speaking of Satan working through the false prophets and christs) in the time of the end. Not about political nations or empires.

So you're saying that we must substitute the word "Satan" for every occurrence of "king", "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" within the chapter?

 

[TribulationSigns]

So you're saying that we must substitute the word "Satan" for every occurrence of "king", "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" within the chapter?

Daniel 2:38-43 KJV
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

1.) Did King Nebuchadnezzar rule all men on Earth? Did he rule people in Europe and America during his reign? Seriously! No, God is talking about the spiritual rule of Satan.

2.) The second and third kingdom, in an inferior state, still bear rule over all the earth. And why the kingdom was inferior to the first?

Waiting to hear your biblical answer.

 

[jgr]

Daniel 2:38-43 KJV
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

1.) Did King Nebuchadnezzar rule all men on Earth? Did he rule people in Europe and America during his reign? Seriously! No, God is talking about the spiritual rule of Satan.

2.) The second and third kingdom, in an inferior state, still bear rule over all the earth. And why the kingdom was inferior to the first?

Waiting to hear your biblical answer.

I'll give you my answer after you give yours, since you didn't answer my previous question:

So you're saying that we must substitute the word "Satan" for every occurrence of "king", "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" within the chapter?

You believe that "Satan" is to be substituted in verses 36-38. Is that true for every occurrence of "king", "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" within the chapter? If not, in which verses is "Satan" to be substituted?

Awaiting your biblical answer.

 

[jgr]

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

The Kings are: Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander, the end times Julio-Claudian king of the Roman Empire.

And the beasts are also 4 kingdoms - which those 4 kings are the most notable over each of those 4 kingdoms.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
_____________________________________________________________________
The beast as a Kingdom (the fourth Kingdom) is in Revelation 13. And the same beast as a King is the most notable King of that fourth Kingdom in Revelation 13

Correct, four kingdoms -- Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, (pagan imperial) Roman. Imperial Rome divided, as described in Daniel 2:41, into Western Roman and Eastern Roman, corresponding to the characterizations of iron and clay. They both retained the Roman identity, thus still constituting one kingdom, not two. The Western iron kingdom evolved over the centuries into papal Rome, whose power far exceeded that of the Eastern clay kingdom, hence the characterizations of strength and weakness.

 

[Douggg]

My second grade teacher insisted that FIVE≠FOUR. I tried to argue but it was no use ...

Dan. 2: 41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom
Dan. 2:45 Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Please check my math. It was never my strong point.
Thanks,
DaDad

Five materials - one of the four kingdoms will be clay and iron in the end times..

 

[Douggg]

Correct, four kingdoms -- Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, (pagan imperial) Roman. Imperial Rome divided, as described in Daniel 2:41, into Western Roman and Eastern Roman, corresponding to the characterizations of iron and clay. They both retained the Roman identity, thus still constituting one kingdom, not two. The Western iron kingdom evolved over the centuries into papal Rome, whose power far exceeded that of the Eastern clay kingdom, hence the characterizations of strength and weakness.

jgr, can you go along with the beasts as four (notable) kings as well - of Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander of three of the kingdoms? And the little horn the notable king of the fourth kingdom?

Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander - were individuals, not an office. Likewise, the little horn will be a specific individual - not the office of Pope.

The ten toes are ten end times kings. The vandals, ostrogoths, heruli, etc are not the ten kings.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

 

[DaDad]

Five materials ...

= Five kingdoms.

 

[Douggg]

= Five kingdoms.

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

It is not two kingdoms, but one kingdom - part of it strong, part of it broken. The EU.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I'll give you my answer after you give yours, since you didn't answer my previous question:

So you're saying that we must substitute the word "Satan" for every occurrence of "king", "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" within the chapter?

You believe that "Satan" is to be substituted in verses 36-38. Is that true for every occurrence of "king", "thee", "thou", "thy", and "thine" within the chapter? If not, in which verses is "Satan" to be substituted?

Awaiting your biblical answer.

I already explained that Daniel was prophesying against Satan through King Nedbueszzadar, his spiritual ruler. And yes Daniel prophesied about the strength of His Kingdom over time.

Now answer my questions below:

Daniel 2:38-43 KJV
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

1.) Did King Nebuchadnezzar rule all men on Earth? Did he rule people in Europe and America during his reign? Seriously! No, God is talking about the spiritual rule of Satan.

2.) The second and third kingdom, in an inferior state, still bear rule over all the earth. And why the kingdom was inferior to the first?​

 

[jgr]

jgr, can you go along with the beasts as four (notable) kings as well - of Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, Alexander of three of the kingdoms? And the little horn the notable king of the fourth kingdom?

Douggg, you'll notice that, other than for Nebuchadnezzar whom Daniel is addressing, no kings associated with the four kingdoms are explicitly identified. This is because each of the kingdoms had successions of kings. Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus, and Alexander were the most notable, but far from the only, kings of the associated kingdoms.

The little horn kingdom arose out of the dissolution of imperial Rome. There is only one historically identifiable kingdom to do so -- papal Rome.

The ten toes are ten end times kings. The vandals, ostrogoths, heruli, etc are not the ten kings.

Similarly, the Vandals, Ostrogoths, Heruli, and all of the other of the ten kingdoms were ruled by historically identifiable successions of kings.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The ten kingdoms existed autonomously for a limited time until their authority was absorbed under papal Rome.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

There couldn't be a more applicable description of the actions of the apostate papacy.

 

[DaDad]

42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom

45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

I already explained that Daniel was prophesying against Satan through King Nedbueszzadar, his spiritual ruler. And yes Daniel prophesied about the strength of His Kingdom over time.

Now answer my questions below:

Daniel 2:38-43 KJV
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

1.) Did King Nebuchadnezzar rule all men on Earth? Did he rule people in Europe and America during his reign? Seriously! No, God is talking about the spiritual rule of Satan.

2.) The second and third kingdom, in an inferior state, still bear rule over all the earth. And why the kingdom was inferior to the first?​

You still haven't answered my question directly, so I'll presume your answer to be "yes"; i.e., you presume the king to be in reality Satan. So we can begin with that presumption earlier in the chapter:

Daniel 2
26 The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?

...which you would say in reality is:

Daniel 2
26 Satan answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?


Did Satan have the dream?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Correct, four kingdoms -- Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, (pagan imperial) Roman. Imperial Rome divided, as described in Daniel 2:41, into Western Roman and Eastern Roman, corresponding to the characterizations of iron and clay. They both retained the Roman identity, thus still constituting one kingdom, not two. The Western iron kingdom evolved over the centuries into papal Rome, whose power far exceeded that of the Eastern clay kingdom, hence the characterizations of strength and weakness.

I used to teach this before but no longer believe it is an accurate interpretation. I would not allow world history or physical empires/organizations to interpret God's prophecies. Instead, God's prophecies interpret Biblical history.

 

[jgr]

I used to teach this before but no longer believe it is an accurate interpretation. I would not allow world history or physical empires/organizations to interpret God's prophecies. Instead, God's prophecies interpret Biblical history.

Are you saying that God's prophecies never predict future literal events?

 

[jgr]

Daniel 2:41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom

45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Thanks,
DaDad

They weren't broken into only five pieces. They were all broken into so many pieces that they became like dust.

Daniel 2
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

There were four kingdoms, the fourth (Rome) comprised of both iron and clay.

 

[DaDad]

...

Please read Proverbs 26.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

Please read Proverbs 26.
Thanks,
DaDad

That's good Scripture. How does it relate to Daniel's four kingdoms?

 

[Douggg]

The ten kingdoms existed autonomously for a limited time until their authority was absorbed under papal Rome.

The problem is that those particular ten kingdoms did not make war with Jesus. Those particular kings who do make war with Jesus - assemble their armies at Armageddon Revelation 16:16 - and Jesus destroys them when they march down and attack Jerusalem - in Zechariah 14.

Here are the verses....

Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

The ten kings are end times kings. The reformers never did make the connection that to be Antichrist, the person has to be thought by the Jews to be the promised great King of Israel descended from King David. On one hand.

And the King of the Roman Empire, on the other. They got that part right. But the person should not be called the Antichrist when he is in that role (King of the Roman Empire)... but the little horn or the beast.

There are three main things to keep in mind...

1. The seven years.
2. The person in the role of the King of Israel - the Antichrist
3. The person in the role of the King of the Roman Empire - the little horn, and later the beast.

So you put the seven years out there. And the person becomes the little horn first. Then Gog/Magog takes place. And right after it, the little horn is the prince who shall come into the middle east.

The Jews get swept away into thinking he is the messiah, and he is anointed the King of Israel - peace and safety, as the 7 years begin.

Three years or so go by, and he gets the big head and claims to be God. End of his time as the King of Israel. God has him killed; then brought back to life.

He is at that point the beast - and the ten kings give their Kingdom to him, making him the 8th Julio-Claudian King of the Roman Empire - until Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE
Thanks,
DaDad

You don't find the word five in the text. And in Daniel 7, it says fourth kingdom.

What are you trying to prove with more than four kingdoms, anyway?