Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

[BABerean2]

Do you not under stand the Great Trib is in fact designed and implemented by the LORD God himself?

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

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[seventysevens]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

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You continue to show that you do not understand that it IS God who sent satan - part of the plan to put those on earth on trial/tribulation for their refusing to repent ,

 

[BABerean2]

You continue to show that you do not understand that it IS God who sent satan - part of the plan to put those on earth on trial/tribulation for their refusing to repent ,

Based on the text of Revelation 12:11, your statement above cannot be correct, because those in the verse have repented and are willing to die for their faith.

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[seventysevens]

Based on the text of Revelation 12:11, your statement above cannot be correct, because those in the verse have repented and are willing to die for their faith.

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But it clearly does not indicate when they repented .
and it does not make it incorrect that the scriptures in total state that the purpose is for those who have not repented - but Jesus says IF you repent and endure to the end then you can be saved
people who are not in the GT do not have to be concerned about it as they have already repented and are already saved

 

[keras]

But it clearly does not indicate when they repented .
and it does not make it incorrect that the scriptures in total state that the purpose is for those who have not repented - but Jesus says IF you repent and endure to the end then you can be saved
people who are not in the GT do not have to be concerned about it as they have already repented and are already saved

IF you repent and endure until the end you will be saved. Quote 77's
This statement clearly and plainly means we must stay on earth until the end of this age.
Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I come. To all who are victorious, all who overcome and persevere in doing My will until the end, to him I will give authority over nations.
There is no 'rapture to heaven'.

 

[seventysevens]

IF you repent and endure until the end you will be saved. Quote 77's
This statement clearly and plainly means we must stay on earth until the end of this age.
Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I come. To all who are victorious, all who overcome and persevere in doing My will until the end, to him I will give authority over nations.
There is no 'rapture to heaven'.

lol , it means IF you are in the GT , you insist on it so you may well be
the level of blindness you show is on par with the Jews that reject Jesus as Messiah - Scripture plainly says it , people can teach it , but yet they refuse it , you can't understand because you choose not to understand , you would if if open your eyes , and recognize the fullness of scripture on the matter , but you choose not to
Think about it - scripture plainly provides that after the Man of Sin is revealed , there will be times time and half a time , or less than 4 years till Jesus returns , (I don't feel like getting specific on the days) so that tells us that they can know very close to the day when Jesus returns after the GT begins ,
Rapture occurs at a time when you think not - meaning there are no indicators in months , years or days as to when it will happen , but you will likely prefer to keep your eyes closed

 

[jgr]

Why don't you ask him? I have only pointed out what Irenaeus clearly said. He identified the resurrection as after the coming of Antichrist and before his three and a half year reign of terror. And in describing the people who went through those times, He always said "the church" or "we" up to that time, and changed his terms to "the righteous," "they," them," or "those" after that time.

I have already posted detailed proof of this, in Christian forums.

It is indeed disappointing that the putative expert on the subject could not provide at least a tentative explanation.

Therefore, allow me:

Hippolytus understood his mentor Irenaeus' thinking on the subject, and reconfirmed it in his assertion that the Church would endure the entirety of antichrist's reign.
His reconfirmation does not align with your own presumptions regarding Irenaeus' thinking.

Possible or probable?

 

[jgr]

Why don't you ask him? I have only pointed out what Irenaeus clearly said. He identified the resurrection as after the coming of Antichrist and before his three and a half year reign of terror. And in describing the people who went through those times, He always said "the church" or "we" up to that time, and changed his terms to "the righteous," "they," them," or "those" after that time.

I have already posted detailed proof of this, in Christian forums.

Irenaeus:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, Paragraph 1)

If I understand correctly, your claim is that the Church is the Church; but the righteous are not the Church but rather only tribulation believers.

Yet Irenaeus earlier describes the righteous as all believers, i.e. the Church:

"For whatsoever we acquired from unrighteousness when we were heathen, we are proved righteous, when we have become believers, by applying it to the Lord's advantage." (Against Heresies, Book IV Chapter XXX Paragraph 3)

"The Father, therefore, who has prepared the kingdom for the righteous, into which the Son has received those worthy of it, is He who has also prepared the furnace of fire, into which these angels commissioned by the Son of man shall send those persons who deserve it, according to God's command." (Against Heresies, Book IV Chapter XL Paragraph 2)

Furthermore, there is no instance in the remainder of Book V, after the first quotation above, in which a reference to "righteous" is restricted to only tribulation believers.


Explanation?

 

[Biblewriter]

It is indeed disappointing that the putative expert on the subject could not provide at least a tentative explanation.

Therefore, allow me:

Hippolytus understood his mentor Irenaeus' thinking on the subject, and reconfirmed it in his assertion that the Church would endure the entirety of antichrist's reign.
His reconfirmation does not align with your own presumptions regarding Irenaeus' thinking.

Possible or probable?

Neither

 

[Biblewriter]

Irenaeus:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. Matthew 24:21 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption." (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, Paragraph 1)

If I understand correctly, your claim is that the Church is the Church; but the righteous are not the Church but rather only tribulation believers.

Yet Irenaeus earlier describes the righteous as all believers, i.e. the Church:

"For whatsoever we acquired from unrighteousness when we were heathen, we are proved righteous, when we have become believers, by applying it to the Lord's advantage." (Against Heresies, Book IV Chapter XXX Paragraph 3)

"The Father, therefore, who has prepared the kingdom for the righteous, into which the Son has received those worthy of it, is He who has also prepared the furnace of fire, into which these angels commissioned by the Son of man shall send those persons who deserve it, according to God's command." (Against Heresies, Book IV Chapter XL Paragraph 2)

Furthermore, there is no instance in the remainder of Book V, after the first quotation above, in which a reference to "righteous" is restricted to only tribulation believers.


Explanation?

What Irenaeus said is completely in accordance with standard pre-trib doctrine. But since you are unfamiliar with that, you do not understand that.

I told you that I had posted the proof of what I said, but upon examination, I have found that I did not after all. So I plan to post it soon in Dispensationalism.

 

[jgr]

What Irenaeus said is completely in accordance with standard pre-trib doctrine. But since you are unfamiliar with that, you do not understand that.

I told you that I had posted the proof of what I said, but upon examination, I have found that I did not after all. So I plan to post it soon in Dispensationalism.

I understand that "the righteous" always means "all the righteous". What else is there to understand?

 

[Biblewriter]

It most certainly does not “always” mean that.

 

[Biblewriter]

In fact it does not even imply that, although it could sometimes mean that.

 

[jgr]

In fact it does not even imply that, although it could sometimes mean that.

Where doesn't it mean that?

 

[keras]

lol , it means IF you are in the GT , you insist on it so you may well be
the level of blindness you show is on par with the Jews that reject Jesus as Messiah - Scripture plainly says it , people can teach it , but yet they refuse it , you can't understand because you choose not to understand , you would if if open your eyes , and recognize the fullness of scripture on the matter , but you choose not to
Think about it - scripture plainly provides that after the Man of Sin is revealed , there will be times time and half a time , or less than 4 years till Jesus returns , (I don't feel like getting specific on the days) so that tells us that they can know very close to the day when Jesus returns after the GT begins ,
Rapture occurs at a time when you think not - meaning there are no indicators in months , years or days as to when it will happen , but you will likely prefer to keep your eyes closed

Yes 77's, I do insist; [hope and pray] that I remain alive on earth during the Great Tribulation. Because that is where I can be of use to the Lord. And if my head does get chopped off, my soul will go to heaven, Revelation 6:9-11, and I confidently expect to be resurrected when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4
I have no, zero, zilch; desire to escape to heaven, I know the earth as my place and great will be the time when God will dwell here too. Revelation 21:1-7

We are told that those who wish to avoid trials and discipline are not true children of the Lord at all. Hebrews 12:6-8 Isn't that enough for you people who have been taught a 'rapture to heaven', to reconsider that false and unbiblical theory?

 

[keras]

In fact it does not even imply that, although it could sometimes mean that.

The question is: Are the righteous, the holy ones of God, another group from the Church? This is during the GT, the pre-trib theory of the Church being removed to heaven, despite there not being any Bible teaching of this.
There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, +

I don't know how jgr, BaB, and others who refute the 'rapture', feel about this constant pushing of that theory by some here and also by respected teachers, like Dr David Jeremiah, but I have had enough of them and will call them for what they are; false teachers and wolves among the flock.
There is another descriptive adjective for them in Hebrews 12:8, KJV.

Friends, brethren, fellow Christians, your faith is misplaced. Do not hope for a rapture, put all your trust in Jesus. He has promised to save and protect His own during the dramatic times ahead. Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2, +

 

[jgr]

The question is: Are the righteous, the holy ones of God, another group from the Church? This is during the GT, the Church being removed to heaven, despite there not being any Bible teaching of this.
There is only ONE people of God. Ephesians 4:4-6, +

I don't know how jgr, BaB, and others who refute the 'rapture', feel about this constant pushing of that theory by some here and also by respected teachers, like Dr David Jeremiah, but I have had enough of them and will call them for what they are; false teachers and wolves among the flock.
There is another descriptive adjective for them in Hebrews 12:8, KJV.

Friends, brethren, fellow Christians, your faith is misplaced. Do not hope for a rapture, put all your trust in Jesus. He has promised to save and protect His own during the dramatic times ahead. Acts 2:21, Isaiah 43:2, +

Yeah, does get wearisome, as you yourself experience along with the rest of us. But we're called to "...contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints". (Jude 3, NASB). If there's any consolation, it may be that these "contentions" are of value to those seeking truth upon which to base their own decisions. Thanks for your contributions to those efforts.

 

[Quasar92]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!


The difference between the pre-trib rapture of the Church, as delineated above, and the SECOND coming of Jesus are the following facts:

1. Jesus returns to the earth in His second coming, recorded in Zech.14:4-5 and in Acts 1:11.

2. No one meets Jesus in the sky when He returns in His second coming, recorded in Rev.19:14, as they will when He returns for the first time, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16!.

3. Jesus will return from the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, in heaven, in His second coming, to the earth, with His Church, recorded in Rev.19:14, He came for in His first coming, in the clouds of the sky, seven years before, recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28, 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.


Quasar92

 

[Douggg]

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Q, that scripture place where the rapture happens in regards to the resurrection in the text right before.

Why are you not referring to what Paul indicated in 1Thessalonians5, as he continues on the topic? It is in that chapter as to when the resurrection and rapture in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 will take place.

 

[keras]

Scriptural proof for the pre-trib rapture of the Church

Well, Quasar, you 'liked' my post #96, where I identified those who hope for a pre-trib rapture to heaven, as illegitimate!
You old, many posted, so called scriptural proofs, have been refuted before, but for the benefit of new members and all who have fallen for that false teaching, I repeat the proofs that you are wrong:

The Scriptures are crystal clear where Jesus will meet His Church, in 1 Thess.4:17: "After that, we who are still alive and are left, WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the clouds TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

It IS 'crystal clear' that this prophecy will occur when Jesus leaves heaven and comes to the earth for His Millennium reign. We who are alive and remain, will meet and greet Him, then be with Him forever- on earth.

From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church

What a leap of conjecture and supposition that is!
John just goes to heaven in the spirit, his body must remain at Patmos.
That represents the Church? You're dreaming!

From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!

Totally refuted by the proof that Jesus is accompanied by His angelic army. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14, and the other scriptures about His Return, say the 'holy ones', Greek- hagious; which can mean angels or saints, but the clear identification in the 2 verses above, proves they are angels.

I have covered your other 4 points, nothing in them helps your case.
The only way you can prove a rapture to heaven, is by providing a Bible verse that says that is what God will do for His people.