Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

[sdowney717]

It is hilariously comical for the pre trib teachers to say Revelation 4:1 and 2 is the rapture of the church.
When this is only about the vision of a man named John given to write the book and his being called up to God's throne in heaven.
Of course we all know the pre trib teaching appeals to the flesh as in not having to suffer persecution from the devil, which idea of escapism is not scriptural. Appealing to Noah and the flood as a type of rapture, Jesus spoke of the end being like the time of Noah, if kept in proper context is a good teaching, because when God shut the doors of the ark, the judgement on the ancient world was consummated with the destruction of all that breathed the breath of life from the air. So God preserved Noah, keeping Noah alive and Noah did not suffer God's wrath. We also will not suffer God's wrath, but there is no 100% certainty of escape from persecution and death by the beast world system if your alive at the time of the end as some do suffer for the sake of the kingdom of God. The saints of God make up His church on the earth.


Revelation 4 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Throne Room of Heaven
1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne.


Revelation 13:7
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Revelation 15:3
They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and marvelous areYour works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!
Revelation 16:6
For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.”
Revelation 17:6
I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.
Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[jgr]

What do you call this, which is believed to have been written between 186 and 188 A. D.:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ " (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

Or this, which is thought to have been written around the year 240 A. D.:

“ ‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.’ ‘And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution." (commentary on Revelation 15:1, by Victorinus)

or this, whose date is unknown, but has been estimated to have been between 323 and 647 A. D.:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.” Author unknown, but called pseudo-Ephraem, paragraph 2.)

Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against…It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved…. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is.
Ireneaus, Against Heresies (Book 5) [182-188]


The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church.
Victorinus, Commentary On Apocalypse [300-400]


Re. Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of this document, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

None cannot be considered reliable in any variant.


But there is one certainty: None of the foregoing were pretribbers.

 

[Biblewriter]

Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against…It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved…. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is.
Ireneaus, Against Heresies (Book 5) [182-188]


The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church.
Victorinus, Commentary On Apocalypse [300-400]


Re. Pseudo-Ephraem:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .

The above is a quote from the Latin version, which appeared after the original Syriac version.

The original Syriac version read:

"Pronouncing the good fortune of the deceased Who had avoided the calamity: 'Blessed are you for you were borne away (to the grave) And hence you escaped from the afflictions!"

The escape was via death, not rapture.

There is considerable controversy regarding the authorship and dating of this document, of which there were multiple variants. Wikipedia has a good summary.

None cannot be considered reliable in any variant.


But there is one certainty: None of the foregoing were pretribbers.

I have already demonstrated at length, that Irenaeus was indeed saying that the rapture (although that word had not yet been invented at that time) would be before the tribulation. He taught that the tribulation would last 3-1/2 years, and would start after the Antichrist came to power.

As to Pseudo-Ephraem, there are a number of documents attributed to Pseudo_Ephraem, and they are so radically different that it is physically impossible that the same person could have written them all. As Pseudo-Ephraem only means someone falsely claimed to have been Ephraem, there could have been many writers who falsely claimed to have been Ephraem.

But who actually wrote the document in question is actually immaterial. The only thing that is significant is that some very old writer actually penned these words.

 

[Noah Ark]

Hello Again Drjaen:

My point about the rapture is this: It is false doctrine that originally came from a Europe many years ago. The is a book that details this called - The Rapture Plot-

Foolish virgins shall be left n mournn

 

[jgr]

I have already demonstrated at length, that Irenaeus was indeed saying that the rapture (although that word had not yet been invented at that time) would be before the tribulation. He taught that the tribulation would last 3-1/2 years, and would start after the Antichrist came to power.

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Hippolytus was an intimate disciple and protege of Irenaeus. He believed that the Church would suffer during the entire reign of antichrist.

Why would he differ from his mentor Irenaeus?

But who actually wrote the document in question is actually immaterial. The only thing that is significant is that some very old writer actually penned these words.

Were the various heterodoxies and worse that were penned by some very old writers also significant?

 

[seventysevens]

Hilarious that people want to be put to through the worst testing period of humanity that rejects Jesus and then suppose that is the will of God , those who accept Christ prior to the beginning of the testing will not go through it , but those saying otherwise may go through it because they insist on doing so , and trying to discourage those who are faithful .
None of you post tribbers can prove what you claim , and all those who push such nonsense will ever address the questions that have been asked multiples of times ,

 

[Inkfingers]

Hilarious that people want to be put to through the worst testing period of humanity

You really think it is worse, on a personal level, than what the early church went through in Rome, or what Christians went through under Mao and Stalin?

You think that, on a personal level, it will somehow be worse that what happened (and is happening) under ISIS where people are beheaded with knives after weeks of torture or burned to death in a cage over a fire?

Seriously? You think perhaps it will hurt more to be gang-raped, immolated, or beheaded under the Beast than under Rome? I'd really like to know how you can claim that...

 

[seventysevens]

You really think it is worse, on a personal level, than what the early church went through in Rome, or what Christians went through under Mao and Stalin?

You think that, on a personal level, it will somehow be worse that what happened (and is happening) under ISIS where people are beheaded with knives after weeks of torture or burned to death in a cage over a fire?

Seriously? You think perhaps it will hurt more to be gang-raped, immolated, or beheaded under the Beast than under Rome? I'd really like to know how you can claim that...

It will be according to Jesus , He is the one making it happen , what you are seeing is just the tip of the iceberg - it will become much much worse , have you not read what Jesus said , if you did you would not be asking that

 

[Inkfingers]

It will be according to Jesus

Rubbish.

On a personal level once the pain gets beyond a certain point it does not go any higher. Watching your children get molested before you all get set light to is already at the top of that scale. The Beast will not make it hurt even more. He'll just make it global.

 

[seventysevens]

Rubbish.

On a personal level once the pain gets beyond a certain point it does not go any higher. Watching your children get molested before you all get set light to is already at the top of that scale. The Beast will not make it hurt even more. He'll just make it global.

It will be on a grand scale , how can you say your personal level is worse than the other people experiencing the same thing
It is FAR more than just that

 

[Inkfingers]

It will be on a grand scale , how can you say your personal level is worse than the other people experiencing the same thing
It is FAR more than just that

You are criticising people by saying they don't want to escape the horrors of the trib.

I am pointing out that the suffering of a Christian in the trib will not be worse than the one raped and torched by Rome.

 

[seventysevens]

You are criticising people by saying they don't want to escape the horrors of the trib.

I am pointing out that the suffering of a Christian in the trib will not be worse than the one raped and torched by Rome.

You are missing the whole point - it is the post tribbers that are 100% of the time the ones who lash out at the brethren to criticize -
this matter has been discussed dozens of time and post triberrs NEVER ever answer the direct questions about this matter -as all they ever do is lash out - it time to be adult and just accept the fact that there are different view with scripture support - if you don't accept it Fine , but attacking people will NEVER solve anything !

 

[Inkfingers]

You are missing the whole point - it is the post tribbers that are 100% of the time the ones who lash out at the brethren to criticize -
this matter has been discussed dozens of time and post triberrs NEVER ever answer the direct questions about this matter -as all they ever do is lash out - it time to be adult and just accept the fact that there are different view with scripture support - if you don't accept it Fine , but attacking people will NEVER solve anything !

So is post #46 you channeling your inner post-tribber?

No, you are the one who is being dismissive of post-trib people, claiming they "want to be put to through the worst testing period of humanity that rejects Jesus and then suppose that is the will of God" as if somehow the suffering in the trib will magically be worse than that experience by Christians throughout history.

The tribulation promises nothing that has not happened to Christians throughout recorded history. You really need to look up the history of the martyrs...

 

[seventysevens]

So is post #46 you channeling your inner post-tribber?

No, you are the one who is being dismissive of post-trib people, claiming they "want to be put to through the worst testing period of humanity that rejects Jesus and then suppose that is the will of God" as if somehow the suffering in the trib will magically be worse than that experience by Christians throughout history.

Just that it will be the worst of all history of the world , worst than has ever been and would never be afterward and if Jesus did not return that ALL flesh would die , all people , all animals

The tribulation promises nothing that has not happened to Christians throughout recorded history. You really need to look up the history of the martyrs...

You choose to be selective of what you read
post # 41

It is hilariously comical for the pre trib teachers to say Revelation 4:1 and 2 is the rapture of the church.

 

[Inkfingers]

You choose to be selective of what you read
post # 41

No, I've not commented on others.

I'm pointing out that you mocking them for not being any more worried about the trib than being turned into a candle by Caligula is missing the point.

 

[seventysevens]

No, I've not commented on others.

I'm pointing out that you .

That is exactly what I mean - you focus on me and disregard the point I make - IT IS because of that type of post IS what I refer to

 

[Inkfingers]

That is exactly what I mean - you focus on me and disregard the point I make - IT IS because of that type of post IS what I refer to

No, I read your post and am just pointing out that you are wrong to mock people who do no more fear the trib than they would the persecution that Christians have always faced.

The trib will not be worse.

 

[seventysevens]

No, I read your post and am just pointing out that you are wrong to mock people who do no more fear the trib than they would the persecution that Christians have always faced.

The trib will not be worse.

Your prefernce is Blinding you - you prefer not to see that post tribber STARTED the mocking because you are post trib- it was STARTED by a post tribber - That proves what I said - it is 100% of the time post tribbers who Start It
Jesus says :
"21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

you can believe whatever you want , that is what freewill give you

 

[sdowney717]

No, I read your post and am just pointing out that you are wrong to mock people who do no more fear the trib than they would the persecution that Christians have always faced.

The trib will not be worse.

The tribulation time will be worse in terms of quantity, the number of people affected, but not quality. Some people have definitely suffered a lot the last 2000 years. Jesus tells us if He had not shortened the days, no flesh would be saved alive, but for the sake of His elect (Christ has elect believers on the earth during the time, which must mean they are a part of His church), the days are shortened.

 

[seventysevens]

The tribulation time will be worse in terms of quantity, the number of people affected, but not quality. Some people have definitely suffered a lot the last 2000 years. Jesus tells us if He had not shortened the days, no flesh would be saved alive, but for the sake of His elect (Christ has elect believers on the earth during the time, which must mean they are a part of His church), the days are shortened.

"21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."

you can believe whatever you want - but GREAT trib - as in a Great earthquake , greater intensity of persecution because satan is unleashed on mankind
but believe whatever suits your preference