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Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by thesunisout, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is no 7 year tribulation period anywhere in the Bible.

    It is normally produced by adding together two different references to the same 42 month period in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its context.

    Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
    This was the 70th week of Daniel.

    Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the 70 weeks prophecy.
    We find the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 in Hebrews 10:16-18, and Acts 10:38.

    Christ is the New Covenant Messiah.
    (See Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 12:22-24, 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.)
    Why would we think that the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah and then forgot to mention the New Covenant?


    The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.



    Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

    Daniel 9:27

    And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    (a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

    (b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

    (c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

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  2. Andy centek

    Andy centek Seeker of Deep Truth Supporter

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    BLESSINGS in Him
     
  3. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

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    I stop arguing.... sorry, I meant "discussing," the rapture topic when one side or the other insinuate that the other side is not saved.
    Stop that! :help:
    The Lord will require that of you. Lord forgive me if I have ever suggested to anyone that they are not saved because we disagree. Blessings of God to all!
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2018
  4. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    Matthew 24 suggests a mid tribulation rapture, 3.5 years from the beginning of signs.....which day no one but the Father knows.

    Rapture Event/ Second coming Process are separate and simultaneous.
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Since there is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible, 3.5 years would be post-trib.


    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    (How long is "forever"?)

    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
    Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.


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  6. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Pretty spot on. I might add its the "End if the Age" as e know it, Satan's power is broken, its not the end of the world, but I think you just misspoke. I like to call it the 70th Week instead of The Tribulation, I think it confuses some, and confuses mixes up people via the "Great Tribulation" spoken of by John in Rev. ch. 7, where he spoke of the Great Multitude that came out of the Great Tribulation. Hes not referring t the End Times 70th week but the 2000 year period of the Church Age. We were told by Jesus we would have continuous tribulation. For this reason I call it Jacobs Troubles or the 70th Week, there is Tribulation with us always.

    Caught up, Harpazo and Rapio all mean the same thing. Thus the Rapture is of Paul. We all speak a different language, that' a given.

    The Day of the Lord us a day when Gods Wrath comes upon the world, but it is not ONE DAY nor can it be, look at all the Old Testament references and it becomes obvious its a DAY that brings forth a PERIOD of Gods Wrath, this starts with the First Seal and ends with the 7th Vial, thus it lasts 3.5 years. Its not one day.

    So we are given SIGNS of thins that happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER that Day starts, in other words when Jesus opens the First Seal and releases the Anti-Christ, the Sun goes dark the moon turns dark, the stars fall (I think the STARS reference Satan being cast out of Heaven) then Jesus will return, but he returns with the Church in tow.

    Not understanding Revelation leads some to think that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are all the same events, because they can't figure out the time-line. You see, when these things happen, its still a log while before Jesus returns, the 1st Woe last 5 Months by itself !! Immediately after the Tribulation of those Days Jesus RETURNS, but those Tribulation (TROUBLES) last 3.5 years, that is how long the Beast rules, 42 Months, thus its also how long Gods Wrath is poured out on mankind. He allows Satan to come forth, that is Gods Anger, he allows mankind to have to low-life slime-ball they have been desiring to rule the earth. All of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are Gods Wrath.

    Read John 20, you can figure out Jesus returned already from Heaven. He told Mary not to touch him after she saw him resurrected (she would have defiled the sacrifice)because he had not yet ascended to the Father, yet 8 days later Jesus allowed Thomas to put his hands/fingers in his wounds. Jesus will return in like manner, but nowhere is it called the Second Coming, that is of man and its Men's Traditions.

    You are conflating the Second Coming with the Church vs. the Rapture. Its two separate events.Jesus is telling the Jews where he will be coming from so they will not come out of their Protected Zone in Petra, the Jews are MOSTLY BLINDED until the time of the Gentiles are come full, see Paul in Rom. ch. 11. Then they Repent (Malachi 4:5-6) and Jesus is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets lies/tricks/miracles. He will return in the EASTERN SKIES, and he thus tell them where he will be at, the same place the Church (EAGLES) will be at, where the CARCASS is at. Where is the Carcass? Well read Rev. 19, its the FOWLS devouring the Kings and Captains etc. etc. at the Marriage Supper. Its the SAME EVENT !! Its the Carnage at Armageddon. The Church/Bride (Eagles) return with Jesus just like Rev. 19 tells us !!

    All of this happens AFTER THE RAPTURE.

    This is about the DEPARTURE of the CHURCH !!
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about 7 years, before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
    This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

    The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
    Therefore, the "Church Age" cannot end before the Second Coming of Christ.

    The time of Jacob's trouble occurred during the captivity in Babylon.

    The Dispensational narrative found above falls apart once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.



    Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner


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  8. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The falsehood of the claims made in "The Rapture Plot" has been decisively proved again and again. the doctrine of a rapture significantly before the great tribulation was taught, and clearly taught, in truly ancient times and in Medieval times. Then, soon after the publication of the King James translation of the Bible, which for the first time made Bibles inexpensive enough for common men to buy them, there was an explosion of this doctrine. It was taught by more than two dozen writers in the sixteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds, as well as by several others in the early 1800s, before any of the teachers who supposedly originated this doctrine had written anything at all.
     
  9. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    There were many prophecies that foretold the first coming of Jesus. These prophecies included not only where He would be born, but even when He would come. But the vast bulk of the Biblical scholars of Jesus’ day totally missed most of these prophecies. They missed them because they concentrated only on passages that spoke of Him as the glorious conquering Messiah, such as, “Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King’s enemies; The peoples fall under You.” (Psalm 45:3-5) They completely neglected other passages that spoke of Him in a completely different light, like “He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.” (Isaiah 53:7-8)

    They should have noticed the contrast between such passages. The Holy Spirit told us that the prophets who uttered them noticed it. “Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.” (1 Peter 1:10-11) But these ancient scholars loved prophecies about Israel’s future glory, so they concentrated on them, neglecting the equally important prophecies about how their deliverer would suffer. Now that the suffering is over, and the rest of the Holy Scriptures have been given to us, we realize that these prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times.

    Even so, many scholars of our own day neglect similar differences in various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. Some of these prophecies speak of His coming as a wonderful thing, full of blessing. Others speak of it as a horrible thing, full of terror. Even as the ancient scholars missed the many differences between the prophecies about His suffering and those about His glory, many modern scholars miss many similar differences between prophecies about His coming in blessing for His own, and prophecies about His coming in judgment on the wicked. Even as the earlier prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times, these unfulfilled prophecies speak of the same coming Christ, but at different times.

    Isaiah 13:9 describes “the day of the Lord” as “Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger.” Jeremiah 46:10 calls it “A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries.” Joel 2:11 says that “the day of the Lord is great and very terrible;” adding, “Who can endure it?” Malachi 3:2 expands this by saying “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap.” And Amos 5:18-20 says “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light. It will be as though a man fled from a lion, And a bear met him! Or as though he went into the house, Leaned his hand on the wall, And a serpent bit him! Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” So we see that “the day of the Lord” is a “cruel” “day of vengeance,” a time so terrible that it can not be endured, that no one can stand when the Lord appears, and that there is “no brightness” in “the day of the Lord.” This is reinforced by Joel 2:1-2, where we read that “For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.”

    This statement of “Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord” (Amos 5:18) stands in stark contrast with the statement of 2 Timothy 4:8 that the Lord will give “the crown of righteousness” to all who “have loved His appearing.” One scripture very clearly states God’s displeasure with anyone desiring “the day of the Lord,” and another scripture just as clearly states his pleasure with those who “have loved His appearing.” This, in and by itself, should show any serious student of the scriptures that these scriptures are speaking of two different events.

    The first question in Malachi 3:2, “who can endure the day of His coming?” is radically different from the exhortation in 1 John 2:28, where we read, “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” One scripture clearly shows that no one “can endure the day of His coming,” while another scripture just as clearly shows that it is possible to “have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same future day.

    The second question in Malachi 3:2, “who can stand when He appears?” is radically different from the exhortation in Luke 21:36 to “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” As we noticed before, one scripture clearly shows that no one “can stand when He appears,” while another tells us to “pray that you may be counted worthy... to stand before the Son of Man.” Are we to imagine that our God exhorted us to pray for something that could not happen? Or do we realize that these two scriptures refer to two different future times.

    Again, we have noticed that Joel 2:2 says that “the day of the Lord” is “A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,” and Amos 5:20 says, “ Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?” These stand in stark contrast to the exhortation in Titus 2:13 that we should be “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.” One scripture very clearly teaches that the gloominess of “the day of the Lord” will be so great that there will be “no brightness in it.” While another scripture says his “glorious appearing” is our “blessed hope.” These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

    But these contrasts are not the only differences between the unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming. There are also significant differences in various details contained in these prophecies. The best known of these is that Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.” (Matthew 25:13) He also said “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mark 13:32) But in Daniel 12:9 we read, “Then I said, ‘My lord, what shall be the end of these things?’” In answer, the prophet was told in Daniel 12:11 that “from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.” Now these are diametrically opposed concepts. Even the Lord Jesus Himself (speaking as a man) did not know the day or the hour of His coming. But even as a man He already had the scripture which specifically stated that He would come “one thousand two hundred and ninety days” after “the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up.” Thus we see that these two scriptures speak of different events that take place at different times.
    The coming of the Lord in blessing for His own is described in the following words: “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

    Although 1 Thessalonians 4:16 plainly says that it is “the Lord Himself” who will come for us, Matthew 24:31 just as plainly says that “He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” In one case, “we” are “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and in the other “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.”

    To understand the significance of this contrast we need to look at Exodus 33, where we read in verses 1-4 that “the LORD said to Moses, ‘Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “To your descendants I will give it.” And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked people.’ And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments.” But in verses 12-17 we read, “Then Moses said to the LORD, ‘See, You say to me, “Bring up this people.” But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, “I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.” And He said, ‘My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.’ Then he said to Him, ‘If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.’ So the LORD said to Moses, ‘I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.’”

    Thus we see that the scriptures plainly teach us that there is a significant difference between the presence of the Lord Himself and that of only a mere angel. But one scripture about the future plainly teaches that “we” will be “caught up” by “the Lord Himself” and another says “His elect.” are gathered by “His angels.” Again, these scriptures cannot be speaking of the same event.
    (continued next post)
     
  10. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    (continued from previous post)

    Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:17 plainly states that when our Lord comes for us we “shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” But when he comes in judgment on the wicked “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” (Zechariah 14:4) In the first case, He meets His own “in the air.” But in the second case we are expressly told that “His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.” Meeting us “In the air” is significantly different from standing “on the Mount of Olives.”

    Again, Revelation 1:7 says,“Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.” But 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 says, “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” There is no way that “every eye” could see something that will take place “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

    All these are indeed material differences between various unfulfilled prophecies about our Lord’s coming But there is one that overshadows all the rest of them. In the parable of the ten virgins (Matthew 25:1-12) we read that “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” (Matthew 25:10-12) here we plainly see the righteous taken into the Lord’s presence while the wicked are left outside a door that remains closed in spite of their pleading. But that is not all that we see here. The word “afterward” in this parable indicates a delay between the time when “they that were ready went in with him” and the time when “other virgins came also.” This is significant because it indicates that the “other virgins” were not removed until after the time when “they that were ready went in with him.”

    But in the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30) we read that at the time of harvest the owner of the field will say, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” (Matthew 13:30) The word “first” in this command clearly indicates that the wicked are gathered before the righteous. Now this order of events is exactly the opposite of the order indicated in Matthew 25. (And yes, the words “afterward” and “first” are in the Greek text of these parables.) The contrast between these orders of events clearly indicates that the two parables are speaking of two different events that take place at different times.

    In the explanation of the parable in Matthew 13, (Matthew 13:37-43) Jesus said this meant that “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ” (Matthew 13:41-43) He then added that “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 13:47-50)

    This is again radically different from the scene presented in Matthew 25. In Matthew 13, the wicked are taken “from among the just.” In Matthew 25, the just are taken from among the wicked. In Matthew 13, the wicked are removed and cast into the fire. In Matthew 25, the wicked are left where they are, but are given no further chance to repent.

    This fact that they are given no further chance to repent is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, where we read that “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” The reason for this is distinctly stated. God will do this as a punishment “because they did not receive the love of the truth,” that is, because they did not wish to know the truth. This awful punishment is because, instead of receiving the truth, they “had pleasure in unrighteousness.” Nor is this only stated in the New Testament. We see it again in the last chapter of Isaiah, where we read, “Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations, So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight.” (Isaiah 66:3-4) So the scriptures clearly teach that there is a time coming in which those who had previously rejected the gospel will have no more chance to repent. This is in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:10 that “the door was shut” after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” It is also in perfect keeping with the statement of Matthew 25:11-12 that “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’” This parable clearly shows that there will be those that seek a relationship with the bridegroom after He has come. But at that time it will be too late. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 clearly states that at that time, those that had previously rejected God’s word will be turned over to believe “the lie.” And Isaiah 66:3-4 just as clearly states that at that time God “will choose their delusions.” The time being spoken of here is plainly the time we call the tribulation. But it takes place after “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”

    Again we read in John 14:2-3, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.” But we also read in 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you, so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.”

    In the first of these, our Lord says “I will come again, and receive you to myself.” In the second, we read of “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” In the first passage He comes to receive His own to Himself. In the second one He comes with them, for He comes “with all His saints.” If He is going to come for His own and He is also going to come with them, He has to come for them before He can come with them. This is a simple matter of the meaning of words. No other interpretation is possible. These two scriptures, in and by themselves, do not indicate how long the delay between these two events might be, but they clearly indicate that they occur in sequence. Many imagine that this sequence is simply that He meets us on the way down, and then continues on down to the mount of Olives to execute judgment on the wicked. But this interpretation does not fit the rest of the scriptures.

    Looking again at John 14:2-3, we read, “In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
    In this scripture, our Lord first refers to His Father’s house, saying “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” He then says that he is going “to prepare a place for you.” From this statement it is plain that the place to which He was going “to prepare a place for you” was His “Father’s house.” But He said He was going there “to prepare a place for you” He was going to His “Father’s house,” “to prepare a place for you.” And that is the place from which he “will come again, and receive you unto myself.” But what is the purpose of this coming? “That where I am, there ye may be also.” This scripture does not present a picture of coming, picking us up along the way, and taking us with Himself to another place. It presents a picture of coming to get us and taking us back to where he came from, that is, His “Father’s house.” That is where He has gone “to prepare a place” for us. That is where He is, and that is where he will take us, for the stated purpose of this coming is “that where I am, there you may be also.”

    But the purpose of His coming “with all His saints” is entirely different, for we read in Jude 14-15, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Jude 14-15) The purpose of the first coming is to “receive you unto myself.” The purpose of the second coming is “to execute judgement on all.”
    (continued next post)
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    (continued from previous post)

    We have seen that comparing John 14:2-3 and 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 makes it clear that there is a delay between these two events, but does not indicate how long that delay will be. Other scriptures give an indication of how long this will be. The most significant of these is “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Revelation 3:10) The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote)” Thayer defines it as “out of, from, by, away from.” Other Greek references give similar definitions. In addition to the NKJV version of the Bible, which we are using, we find the same rendering of this Greek word in the KJV, the ASV, the CEV, the ESV, the HCSB, the NASB, the NLT, the NRSV, the RSV, and the TEV versions of the Bible and the ISVNT version of the New Testament. Some pretend that in this passage, ek actually means through, in, or during, but in the face of such strong evidence, such a claim is hard to defend.

    In addition, we need to take into account what we were promised to be kept from. The promise was, “I... will keep you from the hour of trial.” There is a coming “hour of trial.” But these who “have kept” our Lord’s “command to persevere”will be kept “from,” that is, out of, that “hour.” We are not promised that we will be kept out of the trial, but out of the “hour,” that is, the time, in which this trial will take place.

    This “hour of trial” “shall come upon the whole world.” the Greek word translated whole here is holos (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek dictionary.) Strong defines this word as follows: “A primary word; ‘whole; or ‘all’, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb.” Thayer defines it simply as “all, whole, completely.” There can be no question that in this passage, this Greek word means the entire world, all of it, not just part of it. This “hour of trial”, that is, this time of testing, “shall come upon the whole world.” But the Lord’s own are promised to be kept out of it. This shows us that the delay between the Lord’s coming for his own and his coming with them is at least as long as this “hour of trial,” for if it “shall come upon the whole world” but we are kept out of it, our removal from the world has to before that “hour of trial.”

    Again, in the order of events in Revelation 19, we see the marriage of the lamb in verses 7-8, “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” Then, after that, we see the Lord going forth out of heaven as the mighty conqueror, followed by the armies of heaven in verses 11-16 “Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” This sequence of events clearly shows the church, the bride of Christ, already in heaven before the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the world. But it does not just show that. It clearly shows the armies proceeding out of heaven with the Lord “clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” But it had just told us, only six verses earlier, that “the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.” This is conclusive proof that the saints will already be in heaven before the Lord comes to judge the world.

    Now many produce various arguments to prove that this conclusion is incorrect. But essentially every argument they produce is one that fails to take into account the marked differences between the scriptures about our Lord’s coming in vengeance to judge the world and his coming in blessing to receive His own to Himself. Many insist that there is no such distinction. But as we have seen, there are numerous such distinctions, and that in some cases they are very extreme. There is no logical conclusion except that these distinctions indicate that the unfulfilled prophecies about the future coming of Christ follow the precedent established in the Old Testament scriptures of showing, even though not stating, that there would be more than one such future coming.
     
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The arguments above are meant to prove the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

    However, once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    (A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.)

    .
     
  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just because the unbelieving Jews were blinded by God about Jesus' first coming to die on the cross, that does not necessarily mean today's pastors who heed Scripture about Jesus' second coming after the tribulation to gather His Church are doing the same thing those blinded Jews in OT times did. Your analogy does not work.
     
  14. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If you believe the pre-trib rapture idea was taught in any Church prior to the 1800's, then you have been deceived by Revisionism attempted by the pre-trib doctors. Since the whole pre-trib rapture idea is a lie to begin with, why wouldn't its later followers try to revise the history of the doctrine also?

    PRE-TRIB REVISORS KEEP FABRICATING
     
  15. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    What do you call this, which is believed to have been written between 186 and 188 A. D.:

    "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ " (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1.)

    Or this, which is thought to have been written around the year 240 A. D.:

    “ ‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.’ ‘And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution." (commentary on Revelation 15:1, by Victorinus)

    or this, whose date is unknown, but has been estimated to have been between 323 and 647 A. D.:

    "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World.” Author unknown, but called pseudo-Ephraem, paragraph 2.)
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    It was clearly stated, in this very thread, that the scriptures do not show more than one returm of Christ. Those who say this are ignoring a clear precedent set in the Old Testament, that, even though his coming is always stated in the singular, when the prophecies contain mutually exclusive details, the resolution is that He will return more than just one time.
     
  17. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    I call it guesswork and assumption by those early church fathers.
    None of them actually propose that the Church in the last days will be taken to heaven. This idea is further guesswork and assumption by later teachers of their false theories. Continuing with the rapture industry today.

    But I do agree with the truth of there being two Days of the Lord.
    The first, when He comes in wrath and judges/punishes the nations. The Sixth Seal event, when He won't be seen. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4-12
    Later, when He comes in glory for His Millennium reign. As the time gap of the
    Seventh Seal informs us; there will be about 20 years between these two Day's of the Lord.
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I said nothing about whether or not their conclusions were valid.

    My ENTIRE point was that the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation was being taught in ancient times.
     
  19. bjdea1

    bjdea1 Junior Member

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    I agree there are 2 events where the Lord comes, but not exactly as you've stated. I believe the first is the 6th Seal event (just after the Abomination of desolation), I call this the Day of the Lord, when ALL eyes will see Him in great glory in the clouds and the kings of the earth will hide in the mountains etc. The same time we are raptured out and God's wrath starts to be poured out, it all happens on the same day. It's similar to Sodom and Gomorrah, on the SAME DAY Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone reigned down, I believe it will be the same for the rapture. We'll be taken by the angels out of this world, then 30 minutes later fire and brimstone will be hurled down upon the earth and God's Wrath will start and continue approx 3.5 years - while the Anti-Christ rules over this world.

    Then towards the end of that 3.5 years Jesus will return (with the saints) to fight the battle of Armageddon - then the Millennium will start.

    God Bless
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Any conclusion that the Church will be taken to heaven is invalid, because the Bible never says that is God's plan. Proved and totally refuted by the verses that tell us to stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. Revelation 13:10, Matthew 24:13. +
     
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