Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

[thesunisout]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

Acts 1:11

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

Matthew 24:26-27

Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

Augustine:

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

Hippolytus

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

Tertullian

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Irenaeus

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

Revelation 3:10

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

John 8:32

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[Gary Openhill]

the whole teaching falls on itself when we realize daniels last 7 week is not in our future but was fulfilled by christ as daniel pinpointed the date for the coming of the messiah.
good talk.

 

[Lightsway]

 

[Lightsway]

Apology captions in English here.
Beyond speculation.

 

[joshcorn]

Oh here we go again with this rapture [doctrine].The biggest money making scam of the century. To those that believe this garbage. Study it for yourself.

2 Timothy 2:15King James Version (KJV)

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
let me get you started or push you in the right direction.
Some new bible translation use miss translation of a word like end of the world to support their doctrine[end of the world,original word end of the age]Any one ever heard the phrase reader relevance. It was spoke to them for christian living in that age[age of the law, the old covenant]it deals with the destruction of Jerusalem. Mathew 24.The christian new what Jesus was talking and the signs to watch for. Did you that just before the distinction of Jerusalem all the christian left and not one of them died. They saw the signs Jesus was talking about and got out of town fast.
In Hebrew it talks about the old covenant had to go before before the new covenant came into effect. It a mild way off putting it. I do not want to get into it with a whole bunch of scriptures,original words[Hebrew meaning and there meaning as to reader relevance, not Greek[thinking] meaning,which get you know where to rightly dividing the word.

 

[mark kennedy]

Never took a pre-tribulation seriously, Dispensationalism is bizarre. I like their sense of urgency but think their end times scenarios are inconsistent with Scripture. I'm what they sometimes call a pre-wrath view, sometime after the abomination that causes desolation and before the vials of wrath are poured out. While not a popular view, I think it best explains the requisite prophecies.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Denadii]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

Acts 1:11

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

Matthew 24:26-27

Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

Augustine:

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

Hippolytus

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

Tertullian

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Irenaeus

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

Revelation 3:10

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

John 8:32

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

This was an interesting read, and its obvious that you are thinking here...Keep in mind though that you cannot overlap the rapture and the second coming as they are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS. At the rapture Jesus' feet do not touch the Earth so technically He has not returned. At the end, Jesus's feet touch the Earth. He has returned but there is no catching up, but a gathering together. A round up!

 

[Denadii]

the whole teaching falls on itself when we realize daniels last 7 week is not in our future but was fulfilled by christ as daniel pinpointed the date for the coming of the messiah.
good talk.

So then....This view indicates that the Word contradicts itself. No man knows the time or the hour but Daniel did? Really? This view contradicts soooo much scripture! There is obviously a misunderstanding in the translation or reasoning of those who put this view forward for you, because the Bible is true, The bible confirms itself and allows no contradiction of itself..

 

[Andy centek]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

Acts 1:11

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

Matthew 24:26-27

Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

Augustine:

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

Hippolytus

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

Tertullian

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Irenaeus

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

Revelation 3:10

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

John 8:32

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[Andy centek]

Hello Denadii:

Consider closely what Paul said pertaining to this false rapture that is being taught today.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Who is the we he is talking of. What time period does this put the rapture in?

Th 4:2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Walk in the light and not in the darkness.

Andy Centek

 

[drjean]

...

 

[Andy centek]

...

Hi drjean:

Let me start by using your statements first.
1- You say that I say; we can know the exact day.

The event that you are revering to was for the physical Israel, not for all of mankind. The Gentiles; the other sheep which had yet to be brought into the Fold had not even been talked to. That is way Jesus said this:

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rom 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rom 2:14-20 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Behold, you are called a Jew, and rest in the law, and make your boast of God, And know His will, and approve the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; And are confident that you yourself are a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

Gentiles Grafted In

Rom 11:11-20 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of Them be, but life from the dead? For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and You, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bears not the root, but the root You.

You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be giraffe in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and You stand by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.

Rom_9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom_15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to You among the Gentiles, and sing unto Your name.

Rom_15:11 And again, Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles; and laud him, all you people.

It should be apparent from the above scriptures that the things written to the Jews, for the Jews, is a separate thing altogether. Therefore to pull scriptures out of context leads to much serious spiritual problems.

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

Eph 3:1- 12 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

If you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given Me towards: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote before in few words, whereby, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof (because of this) I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of Him.

As should be understood from Paul's writings the Gentiles were taught by Him and not by the things which apply only to Israel. Jesus sent His disciples unto the Jews of Judeah and not to the Gentiles. Therefore, to take the things written for the Jews, and adopt them on ones self is to bring much spiritual confusion and judgment upon those that do so.

Perhaps you should read my Blog on the study of Revelation. This may clear up many things for you, and perhaps others who have read it. God be willing!

If I can help more please let me know.

Andy Centek

 

[Andy centek]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

Acts 1:11

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

Matthew 24:26-27

Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

Augustine:

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

Hippolytus

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

Tertullian

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Irenaeus

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

Revelation 3:10

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

John 8:32

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[drjean]

I'm not sure about what you are saying.
My point in that reference is that if the rapture is not pre-trib, then you WILL know the exact day of the rapture using only those Bible references: God gave the Jews exact day counting for the tribulation times and certain events. If you are saying that the Jews will know but the non-Jew believers won't (as though that particular verse isn't written to Jewish believers) then I can see why you're confused about my post.

I'm very clear in mind of what I know and have experienced and studied regarding Jewish History, tradition, language, OT and the Revelation to John. I'm not concerned that you believe otherwise, the instant the pretribulational rapture occurs, you'll agree.

 

[Andy centek]

I'm not sure about what you are saying.
My point in that reference is that if the rapture is not pre-trib, then you WILL know the exact day of the rapture using only those Bible references: God gave the Jews exact day counting for the tribulation times and certain events. If you are saying that the Jews will know but the non-Jew believers won't (as though that particular verse isn't written to Jewish believers) then I can see why you're confused about my post.

I'm very clear in mind of what I know and have experienced and studied regarding Jewish History, tradition, language, OT and the Revelation to John. I'm not concerned that you believe otherwise, the instant the pretribulational rapture occurs, you'll agree.

 

[LaSorcia]

​

Mot Hat On

This thread has been moved from Deeper Fellowship.

Mod Hat Off

 

[Andy centek]

Hello Again Drjaen:

My point about the rapture is this: It is false doctrine that originally came from a Europe many years ago. The is a book that details this called - The Rapture Plot-. Also, in scripture there is no place that says the Gentiles will be at a rapture event. All references to the Lord's return was give to the Jews, not the Gentiles. All one has to do is to read the Gospel accounts carefully, then, read what the apostle Paul had to say about who would be involved in the event of His reappearing to Them.

Andy Centek

 

[drjean]

Hello Again Drjaen:

My point about the rapture is this: It is false doctrine that originally came from a Europe many years ago. The is a book that details this called - The Rapture Plot-. Also, in scripture there is no place that says the Gentiles will be at a rapture event. All references to the Lord's return was give to the Jews, not the Gentiles. All one has to do is to read the Gospel accounts carefully, then, read what the apostle Paul had to say about who would be involved in the event of His reappearing to Them.

Andy Centek

We definitely disagree on this point.
What we call the "rapture" is in the New Testament, given to all believers. The actual term was given credit to a translator using a Latin word. Christ did indeed speak "only" to the Jewish people. But Paul wrote to Jews and then non-Jew believers alike, and of course John the "Revelator" wrote for all to try and understand.

Though Christ did not stop to explain to the disciples what He meant in John 14, as they were not prepared to understand, it was given to the apostle Paul many years later when writing his first letter to the Thessalonians to outline exactly what would be done at the Rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul stated, “The Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”

As these verses show, Christ will com

It's a gathering in the air, a taking out, a gathering up.. just as in Revelation John is told "COME UP HITHER" we will be likewise taken up as the Bride of Christ. Just as in Jewish wedding tradition, when the bridegroom goes for the bride (after the father says the groom has made a house is ready for her) he calls to her to come out!

There are two events. You refer to both at times as though they are the same. His return is not His Rapturing His bride. His return is at the end of tribulation when he returns as the Messiah to the Hebrew nation, and the world. We return with Him (white horses, robes and all) You can find this in Scripture.

I think it's difficult to compare Scripture with Scripture if we are too busy reading other people's ideas of what Scripture they pick and choose to read? A constant reading of the Bible, over and over and over again will show you the consistency through the entire Book...OT and NT.... I suggest 3 to 4 times a year at least.

 

[Andy centek]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

Acts 1:11

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

Matthew 24:26-27

Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

Augustine:

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

Hippolytus

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

Tertullian

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Irenaeus

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

Revelation 3:10

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

John 8:32

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

 

[Davy]

Post Tribulation Rapture

The bible teaches us that there will be a seven year period preceding the end of the world called the Tribulation. We learn this in various places, mainly Daniel 9 (70 weeks of Daniel) and Revelation 13 although there are many other references. During this time a person who is referred to as the Antichrist will come to dominate the Earth and cause all of the unsaved to worship him. The bible seems to indicate that at the beginning of the tribulation period he will bring peace to the Earth for a time, and then in the middle of the tribulation he will take of his mask and claim to be God. This is when God begins to pour His wrath out on the Earth. This culminates at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to destroy the Antichrist and begin His sovereign reign over Earth.

These facts are all generally agreed upon. The one fact is not totally agreed upon is the timing of what is called the rapture. You may be surprised to know that the word rapture is nowhere to be found in the bible. It was derived from this verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The word for "caught up" in the greek is harpazo. It means to seize or to snatch out. It is only in the latin vulgate translation produced by the Catholic church that this word is rendered "raptos", which is where we get the word "Rapture". When we are talking about the rapture, we are talking about the church being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and be with Him forever.

There are three different positions taken, in general, for the timing of what is called the rapture, or the gathering together of the saints. The three are:

Pre-tribulation, Mid-tribulation and Post-tribulation.

Something else that everyone generally agrees with is that an event will happen at the end of the tribulation called "The Day of the Lord". This Day is spoken of throughout the Old and New Testament, as a day of great destruction and judgment against the wickedness of man.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed

Joel 2:31

The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes

Malach 4:1

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch

Ultimately, what scripture is pointing to is that the Day of the Lord is the visible coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to judge the world:

Matthew 24:29-30

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

Again, this is generally agreed upon by all viewpoints of the rapture. What this means is that for the pre or mid tribulation rapture to take place, there must be an additional coming of Jesus Christ to gather up His church before the Day of the Lord. So, in the pre-trib and mid-trib viewpoint, there is both a second AND third coming of Christ. Once to gather His church and once to judge the Earth. The trouble with the view of an additional coming of Christ is that it isn't found in the scripture. We do see verses, however, which teach the contrary:

Acts 1:11

Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven

If Jesus returns the same way that He left, how could there by two phases to His return if the ascension only had one? It's a fair question which has no answer other than the obvious one; there couldn't be. If He returns the same way He left, He only returns once.

Jesus also rules it out when He describes what His return will be like:

Matthew 24:26-27

Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be

Jesus is telling us that His return won't be a secret, only revealed to a select group. It will be visible to everyone, lighting up the entire sky. This rules out the theory of a "secret rapture", whereby Christ returns to gather His church unseen.

At this point you might be saying, I can see why these verses and ideas contradict the idea of a pre or mid trib rapture, but that doesn't prove a post-trib rapture either. Indeed it does not. Thankfully, that isn't all that we have to go on to prove a post-tribulation rapture:

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Matthew 24 is an awesome chapter of scripture, where Jesus lists the signs we will see during the end times, especially concerning the tribulation. We see here that the rapture happens "immediately after the tribulation of those days", where He gathers the elect after His visible return to the Earth. This is about as cut and dry as it gets, as it completely rules out a pre or mid trib rapture.

Matthew 24:15-22 further clarifies that this is talking about the Tribulation period:

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened

The abomination of desolation is an event in the middle of the tribulation where the Antichrist sets up a corrupt image in the newly rebuilt Jewish temple. When this happens, God begins to pour out His wrath upon the Earth.

Here is another scripture which definitely limits when the rapture can take place:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God

Paul says here that the rapture can't happen until "the falling away comes first" and the "man of sin is revealed". This places two conditions on when the rapture takes place. Have you ever heard someone teach that the rapture could happen at any time? That isn't true, according to this scripture.

So when does the falling away happen and when is the man of sin revealed?

Matthew 24:10

And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another

This occurs near the middle of the tribulation, sometime after verse 9:

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

This rules out the pre tribulation rapture altogether, since it cannot happen until the falling away occurs. When is the man of sin revealed? Let's look at what Paul says about it:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

This is when the Antichrist takes off his mask and claims to be God. This is referring to the abomination of desolation we looked at earlier, which happens in the middle of the tribulation. Again, this is hard evidence which completely rules out a pre-trib rapture.

Also note that, although it says it can't happen until the middle of the tribulation, it doesn't mean it will happen in the middle of the tribulation. We have already ruled out that possibility with Matthew 24:29-31.

Two other things to notice. In verse 1 Paul is talking about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him". Then in verse 3, he says that "Day". He is tying together the Day of the Lord and the rapture into one Day. This rules out the pre and mid tribulation rapture since they make those two separate events.

In verse 3 we are admonished not to be deceived about all of this. He is warning us there will be a deception about the timing of the coming of the Lord and the rapture!

Deception brings confusion, and never has been there been more confusion about the timing of the rapture today. Did you know that the idea of a pre-trib rapture is a very recent idea, coming about in the last 150 years? From the beginning, the church has believed that it would face the Antichrist in the last days. Here are some quotes from the early church fathers:

Augustine:

But he who reads this passage[Daniel 12], even half asleep, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church before the last judgment of God shall introduce the eternal reign of the saints

Hippolytus

Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven . . .” That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days [the half of the week] during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church

Tertullian

And that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God . . . Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world [On the Resurrection of the flesh, chapter 25].

Irenaeus

For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one.” (Ibid., Chapter XXXV)

I would like to bring up one scripture that is commonly used to object to a post-trib rapture:

Revelation 3:10

Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth

The idea is that the church is kept from the hour of trial, or the tribulation, by removing them from the Earth. Since this would contradict the scriptures we have already reviewed, is there a better explanation? There is and we find it in John 17:15

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one

The words for "keep from" in the greek are tereo ek, which is the exact same phrase used in Revelation 3:10, and the only other place it is used. In John 17:15 Jesus specifically said He didn't want the Father to remove the saints from the earth when trouble came, but to protect them from the the evil one. I believe this is the sense that is meant in Revelation 3:10.

So what does all of this mean? To me it means that our hope can rest on nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness. Our hope can't be an escape from tribulation, because that hope will fail. Our only hope is Christ.

I'm not excited about going through the tribulation but I know my Lord is able to protect me and get me through it. Unfortunately, most people are counting on escaping, and I think when it doesn't happen it will severely try their faith.

I hope you will consider well these facts I have shared. Please don't take my word for it; study the scriptures and pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to you. We can't believe something just because someone else taught it to us; we need to know the truth for ourselves and how to prove it from the scriptures.

John 8:32

So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Just so you know, some of the pre-trib rapture doctors are now also wrongly teaching that the "day of the Lord" begins at the start of the tribulation and lasts to the end of the tribulation. That is impossible you and I know, because of what God's Word declares is to happen on that day, as you have shown.