Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

BABerean2

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4. No one returns to the present heaven at Jesus second coming to the earth, because He has come to establish His 1,000 year reign on the throne of David, in the restored kingdom of Israel, as recorded in Acts 1:6; 2:29-30; 15:16; Zech.6:12-13 described in Ez.40-47 and Rev.20:6. In addition to the present heaven and earth being destroyed and will pass away, as recorded in 2 Pet.3:7 and in Rev.21:1.

There is a conflict between your first statement and your last statement above.
How can Christ reign on the earth for 1,000 years, when the earth is burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-13, on "the Day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief"?

(See Revelation 16:15-16)

Peter was looking for the New Heavens and the New Earth.
I am doing the same.

Your Premill doctrine comes to pieces in Revelation 11:15-18, with the time of the Judgment of the Dead.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


.
 
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Douggg

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It IS 'crystal clear' that this prophecy will occur when Jesus leaves heaven and comes to the earth for His Millennium reign. We who are alive and remain, will meet and greet Him, then be with Him forever- on earth.
To avoid that sort of controversy, read what Paul continued about the topic in 1thessalonians5.

The resurrection and rapture in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is sometime before the Day of the Lord begins, as Paul describes in 1Thessalonians5.

Paul, in 1Thessalonians5:6-11 uses the same language Jesus used in Luke 21:34-38, about staying sober, and watching, and praying to escape those things coming on the earth - versus them who won't escape in 1Thessalonians5:3.

Looking for the hope of salvation, to live with our Lord Jesus Christ, whether we are wake (the rapture) or sleep (the resurrection),that we should live with him.

And punctuates looking for that escape to live with Jesus - to comfort ourselves with that hope - same as in 1Thesslaonians4:18.


1Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
_______________________________________________________

On top of all that, we can know on the timeline of events forthcoming of when the Day of the Lord begins.

The Day of the Lord is triggered by the abomination of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:3-4 - which we don't know the day nor hour it takes place, but the season will be known - sometime around 3 years 3 months into the 7 years.
 
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seventysevens

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Yes 77's, I do insist; [hope and pray] that I remain alive on earth during the Great Tribulation. Because that is where I can be of use to the Lord. And if my head does get chopped off, my soul will go to heaven, Revelation 6:9-11, and I confidently expect to be resurrected when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4
I have no, zero, zilch; desire to escape to heaven, I know the earth as my place and great will be the time when God will dwell here too. Revelation 21:1-7

We are told that those who wish to avoid trials and discipline are not true children of the Lord at all. Hebrews 12:6-8 Isn't that enough for you people who have been taught a 'rapture to heaven', to reconsider that false and unbiblical theory?
You have work to do , go do it :)
 
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Douggg

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The only way you can prove a rapture to heaven, is by providing a Bible verse that says that is what God will do for His people.
Keras, if you speak against that the rapture saying it does not take Christians to heaven - God may say to you - well, okay, you can stay here if you want.

I could be totally wrong, but I don't think God is going to force you to go.
 
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Douggg

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How can Christ reign on the earth for 1,000 years, when the earth is burned up in 2 Peter 3:10-13, on "the Day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief"?
Day of the Lord is a broad expanse of time, not just 24 hours. The Day of the Lord is also a good time, but it is the start that is the worst time in the history of man - because God is taking away Satan's dominion over the earth during that time and dismantling his invisible kingdom of mystery Babylon the great, destroying it.
 
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Inkfingers

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Day of the Lord is a broad expanse of time, not just 24 hours. The Day of the Lord is also a good time, but it is the start that is the worst time in the history of man - because God is taking away Satan's dominion over the earth during that time and dismantling his invisible kingdom of mystery Babylon the great, destroying it.

Given the 1000 years / 1 day notion, the Day of the Lord may be the Millennium itself.
 
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Douggg

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Given the 1000 years / 1 day notion, the Day of the Lord may be the Millennium itself.
I would say it is.

But the 7 years right before the Millennium is the part of the Day of the Lord - that God told the Jews back in Amos not to be seeking for the Day of the Lord, because of the reason that time is going to be really bad.

The Jews see the Day of the Lord as the messianic reign era, which they are right about - but they think all of the negative prophecies of the bible involving them leading up to it can be avoided - by repentance, like the people of Ninevah did when God sent Jonah, that He was going to judge them for their evil ways.

The issue for the Jews is though - the thing they need to repent of to avoid all the negative prophecies - is to repent of rejecting Jesus. Which they are not ready to do.
 
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keras

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Keras, if you speak against that the rapture saying it does not take people to heaven - God may say to you - well, okay, you can stay here if you want.
That is what I want. That you don't want to face all that must happen before Jesus Returns, is an indictment against you.

I speak against false teaching, against unbiblical fables and the 'rapture to heaven' is the worst, because it has set up millions in a careless attitude of believing they won't face any hardships.

Your post #102 is purely your opinion, I disagree with your interpretation of those scriptures.
You have work to do , go do it
I have served over 11 years on the mission field. Now, my task is to promote the Prophetic Word. That you and many refuse to believe the truth of that Word, is also prophesied. Jeremiah 6:10, Isaiah 35:4-5, +
When what has been so comprehensively prophesied does happen, then all will know the Lord has done what He has said He will do. Ezekiel 33:30-33
 
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Douggg

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I speak against false teaching, against unbiblical fables and the 'rapture to heaven' is the worst, because it has set up millions in a careless attitude of believing they won't face any hardships.
keras, that is just name calling. I am showing in the text why the resurrection and rapture to heaven to be with the Lord will take place some time before the Day of the Lord begins, and what triggers the Day of the Lord.
 
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seventysevens

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Your post #102 is purely your opinion, I disagree with your interpretation of those scriptures.
And so you disagree , and many disagree with you
Many times ,many questions have been asked as to how your view is supported by scripture and 100% of the time all you can give is 100% assumption and always disregard truth when it is in opposition to what you prefer - it always will be
 
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Hiscosmicgoldfish3

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the whole teaching falls on itself when we realize daniels last 7 week is not in our future but was fulfilled by christ as daniel pinpointed the date for the coming of the messiah.
;)

agreed - there is no 7 year tribulation.
 
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keras

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keras, that is just name calling. I am showing in the text why the resurrection and rapture to heaven to be with the Lord will take place some time before the Day of the Lord begins, and what triggers the Day of the Lord.
The Biblical text simply does not say what you believe. There is no resurrection or rapture before the Day of the Lord's wrath. That Day will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34
And so you disagree , and many disagree with you
Many times ,many questions have been asked as to how your view is supported by scripture and 100% of the time all you can give is 100% assumption and always disregard truth when it is in opposition to what you prefer - it always will be
This just show how incompetent you are in reading and understanding other people's posts.
One scripture I have posted several times ls: Revelation 2:25-26 Christians are told to hold fast to our faith and to persevere until Jesus Returns.
I don't wonder that you choose to ignore it, because it blows the 'rapture to heaven' theory out of the water.
 
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seventysevens

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The Biblical text simply does not say what you believe. There is no resurrection or rapture before the Day of the Lord's wrath. That Day will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34

This just show how incompetent you are in reading and understanding other people's posts.
One scripture I have posted several times ls: Revelation 2:25-26 Christians are told to hold fast to our faith and to persevere until Jesus Returns.
I don't wonder that you choose to ignore it, because it blows the 'rapture to heaven' theory out of the water.
Just shows you are not willing to accept ALL bible scriptures as you are selective , creating your own doctrine to suit your own desires
Many times many questions have been asked about specifics and you always fail , you rely on assumptions entirely , you choose that scripture but will not accept Jesus saying
"10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

You fail 100% of the time when asked exactly why would God kill HIS people who obeyed HIM
When HE said he will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come

all you have is assumption and no proof
As it has been shown before Many scripture that defeat the notion you have that all Christians will be in the GT - you do not understand there is a Difference between those who repent before the GT and those that do after the GT begins
 
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BABerean2

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"10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

You fail 100% of the time when asked exactly why would God kill HIS people who obeyed HIM
When HE said he will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come

all you have is assumption and no proof

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."


Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.



Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

.
 
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BABerean2

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Keras, if you speak against that the rapture saying it does not take Christians to heaven - God may say to you - well, okay, you can stay here if you want.

I could be totally wrong, but I don't think God is going to force you to go.

You are attempting to turn the Pretrib doctrine into a cult, in your statement above.

.
 
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Douggg

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The Biblical text simply does not say what you believe. There is no resurrection or rapture before the Day of the Lord's wrath. That Day will come upon everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34
Yes, the entire world will affected. And Jesus is saying how to escape, in the parts of Luke 21:34-36, you did not include.

And Paul is saying in 1Thessalonians5, that them who are under the delusion of peace and safety at the time of the worldwide trouble comes on them when the Day of the Lord comes like a thief - will not escape. And goes on to say Christians are not appointed to wrath but to obtain salvation - whether alive or asleep - to be with the Lord forever.
 
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Quasar92

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Q, that scripture place where the rapture happens in regards to the resurrection in the text right before.

Why are you not referring to what Paul indicated in 1Thessalonians5, as he continues on the topic? It is in that chapter as to when the resurrection and rapture in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 will take place.



The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6, Which Jesys told John, is the FIRST resurrection, AFTER His second coming WITH His Church from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14.. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine]


Quasar92.
 
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Douggg

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You are attempting to turn the Pretrib doctrine into a cult, in your statement above.

.
I am not pretrib, but don't say it is not possible either. The rapture could happen pre-70th week.
 
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seventysevens

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The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before,
Care to give more detail ? They were all raised once before?
who was ,? what year did it happen ? how many were there that were raised ? If this means they died and went to heaven , that is not really being raised , as we know the soul/spirit does not remain in a dead body so the soul/spirit does go to where the Lord is but is not a resurrection
 
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Douggg

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The statement by Paul in 1 Thess.4:16, "...and the dead in Christ will rise first," does not mean a resurrection is about to occur. Because they were all raised once before, as those who die in Christ, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8, and as FIRSTFRUITS, each in his own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. Who will return with Jesus when He comes with them from heaven, according to vs 14. If Paul meant it was to be a resurrection, he would have documented it as one, which he did not do. If he had, there would be three resurrections rather than the two that are recorded in Rev.20:4-6, Which Jesys told John, is the FIRST resurrection, AFTER His second coming WITH His Church from heaven, recorded in Rev.19:14.. Which would then have to be changed from the first and second, to the second and third resurrections. 1 Thess.4:13-18 has nothing whatever to do with the second coming of Christ to the earth, as documented in Mt.24:30; Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14, when the Pre-trib raptured Church RETURNS WITH CHRIST!

But rather than meaning it to be a resurrection, it was the third of Paul's assurances to the Thessalonians, that all the members of their church, who had already died in Christ, would not miss the pre-trib rapture of the Church he was teaching them about.

The first of Paul's three assurances begins in vs 13: "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep [die], or to grieve like the rest of men [non-believers], who have no hope." [Parenthetics mine].

Then he followed up his first assurance to them that all those who had previously died in Christ would be together with them at the rapture of the Church in the very next verse [14]: "We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him." Revealing to them, that Christ had previously raised them all once before, as documented in 2 Cor.5:6-8, and had been in heaven with Him ever since. Since all the dead in Christ have been raised once before, there is no reason for them having to be raised a second time. Confirming their status as FIRSTFRUITS, raised each in his own order, according to 1 Cor.15:23.

There will not be any resurrected then, because all their dead in Christ had already been raised once before, in their spiritual bodies [As recorded in 1 Cor.15:44], following the death of their bodies, when they immediately went to be with Christ in heaven. Confirming Ecc.12:7 as well as 2 Cor.5:6-8. Confirmed in 1 Thes.4:14, saying they are returning with Christ, when He returns, from heaven with them. Therefore, when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky for all those who belong to Him left here on earth alive, they will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air [together with those who previously died in Him, who are already there].

The second of Paul's three assurances to the Thessalonians, was that their dead in Christ will not miss the rapture of the Church is in vs 15, which states: "According to the Lord's own word [Recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are left [Believers] till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep [Died]." Of course not! Because they will have already been raised once before, and gone to be with the Lord in heaven in their spiritual bodies, and then return with Him when He comes from heaven! They certainly do not need a resurrection, because they are going to the spiritual world in heaven. In contrast to the glorified physical bodies that will be necessary at the time of the resurrection documented in Rev.20:4 and 6. Because they are to be priests of God and rule with Jesus for 1,000 years right here on the earth, in a human environment! [Parenthetics mine]


Quasar92.
Q, you have really confused me with what you believe. I need some clarification.

You don't believe that there will be a resurrection of Christians a split second or two - before the rapture of the living Christians takes place?

Let's say, just so I can understand your position, that the rapture takes place on July 31, 2018. In that hypothetical, when does the resurrection of the dead in Christ (in blue below) in 1Thessalonians4:16-17 take place - a hypothetical date that would fit with what you believe?

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
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