Post Tribulation Rapture (Moved from Deeper Fellowship)

[keras]

Futurism is the epitome of fantasy, constrained solely by imaginatory delirium.

History is the epitome of reality, constrained completely by the immutables of fact and truth.

For those who yearn for truth, the choice is simple and unmistakable.

As a history buff, I think I know a fair bit about past events, especially the history of Israel, Biblical and secular.
Nowhere do I see the fulfilment of what is plainly described in Revelation. It is. therefore, yet to happen; in our future.
We should know about it and be prepared for all that must take place. Thinking it is all past, simply leaves us in the dark.

 

[jgr]

As a history buff, I think I know a fair bit about past events, especially the history of Israel, Biblical and secular.
Nowhere do I see the fulfilment of what is plainly described in Revelation. It is. therefore, yet to happen; in our future.
We should know about it and be prepared for all that must take place. Thinking it is all pas, simply leaves us in the dark.

There certainly is significant Scripture relating to the Second Coming, and every responsible historicist and partial preterist acknowledges and affirms thus. But both camps begin with history, and look for its alignment and fulfillment with and in Scripture. When such historical alignment and fulfillment cannot be identified, futurization can and should be affirmed.

By contrast, however, the futurist either immediately dismisses history, or does his best to find even the most inconsequential of reasons to deny it.

There is far more fulfillment in Scripture than the typical futurist is willing to concede, and this is why the historicist's and preterist's emphases on historical fulfillment must persist in their goals of preserving an essential balance based in objective fact and truth, rather than subjective speculation and conjecture.

 

[keras]

Well then, jgr; our proper course should be to read what the Prophets plainly say and if there was no past fulfilment, then we know it will happen in the future,
For example; the dramatic cosmic things like the sun as bright as seven days in one, Isaiah 30:26 And the moon shining blood red, also in Isaiah 30:26 and in Revelation 6:12, where it says the sun will be blacked out. This may seem anomalous, but the simple explanation is; after the bright flash, Habakkuk 3:4, happens, then the sun is obscured by the ejected mass hurtling toward earth.
At this point in time, this is about all we really need to know, because after this event, scripture says the veil will be lifted and our understanding made clear. Isaiah 32:3-4, Isaiah 35:4-5,
We are told in Joel 3:32 and acts 2:21, to on that Day; Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

 

[jgr]

Well then, jgr; our proper course should be to read what the Prophets plainly say and if there was no past fulfilment, then we know it will happen in the future,
For example; the dramatic cosmic things like the sun as bright as seven days in one, Isaiah 30:26 And the moon shining blood red, also in Isaiah 30:26 and in Revelation 6:12, where it says the sun will be blacked out. This may seem anomalous, but the simple explanation is; after the bright flash, Habakkuk 3:4, happens, then the sun is obscured by the ejected mass hurtling toward earth.
At this point in time, this is about all we really need to know, because after this event, scripture says the veil will be lifted and our understanding made clear. Isaiah 32:3-4, Isaiah 35:4-5,
We are told in Joel 3:32 and acts 2:21, to on that Day; Call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved.

keras, does that permit metaphors, symbols, figures, and allegories?

Revelation 6:12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

1. There is an earthquake.
2. The sun becomes black. There is no mention or implication of any ejected mass; that is a metaphoric imposition.
3. The moon becomes as blood, so one could expect it would be red in color. But could it exhibit other characteristics of blood, such as running and dripping? Those would also qualify "as blood".

V. 13
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Cannot possibly be literal, as even one star would vaporize earth. Then where would the rest of them fall?

So these are examples of the metaphoric apocalyptic idiom found at numerous places throughout Scripture.

Knowledge, wisdom, and discernment are the indispensable requisites of sound interpretation.

 

[BABerean2]

As a history buff, I think I know a fair bit about past events, especially the history of Israel, Biblical and secular.
Nowhere do I see the fulfilment of what is plainly described in Revelation. It is. therefore, yet to happen; in our future.
We should know about it and be prepared for all that must take place. Thinking it is all past, simply leaves us in the dark.

How about this one?

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.

 

[keras]

keras, does that permit metaphors, symbols, figures, and allegories?

Only when there is no possibility of a physical fulfilment.
Remember that prophecy is 'a little here, a little there', so when all the 100+ prophesies about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath are read and collated, then the whole picture becomes clear.

Cannot possibly be literal, as even one star would vaporize earth. Then where would the rest of them fall?

If course the 'stars' are not actual stars. The nearest is Alpha Centuri, about 4.5 light years away. Rev 6:13 must refer to a meteor shower and as a CME is known to push satellites out of their orbit, those 'figs' may be just all our satellites crashing to earth.

Knowledge, wisdom, and discernment are the indispensable requisites of sound interpretation.

Sure is.
Our modern knowledge informs us that the sun can send our civilization back to the 1800's. This risk is estimated at 12% per decade and is the greatest threat to the world at present.
From the Prophesies about the Lord's Day of wrath, a sudden and shocking worldwide disaster, it is obvious that that God will use His storehouse, Deuteronomy 32:34-35, the sun, to literally fulfil all the vividly described effects.

 

[keras]

How about this one?

BaB, your posts are becoming somewhat unintelligible.
Rather than your usual videos and scriptures, try to put your case in your own words.

With your two quotes above, they are ones that I use to prove how the New Covenant remains to be completely implemented after the Lord's Day of wrath and His faithful people are settled into all of the holy Land.
Surely, you still try to evangelize your neighbors?

 

[jgr]

If course the 'stars' are not actual stars. The nearest is Alpha Centuri, about 4.5 light years away. Rev 6:13 must refer to a meteor shower and as a CME is known to push satellites out of their orbit, those 'figs' may be just all our satellites crashing to earth.

I don't see where Scripture says that the stars are not actual stars. To assert otherwise is to cease to be literal, and to apply your own metaphorization. There is no mention of implication of a meteor shower, satellites, or anything other than literal stars.

 

[keras]

I don't see where Scripture says that the stars are not actual stars. To assert otherwise is to cease to be literal, and to apply your own metaphorization. There is no mention of implication of a meteor shower, satellites, or anything other than literal stars.

The Greek word used in Revelation 6:1; is 'asteres'. Strongs definition is: Bright object in the sky. This covers planets, stars, comets, meteors and now our satellites.

I find your determined opposition to the possibility of a CME doing exactly what the prophesies tell us will happen on the Day of the Lord's wrath, a little unusual. You are here to learn and discuss end time events, are you not? Flat rejection of a possible scenario is not discussion or rebuttal.
I have a list of 117 prophesies that can and will be literally fulfilled by a huge explosion of the suns surface. It will quickly pass, but will change the world and lead up to the Return of Jesus.

 

[jgr]

The Greek word used in Revelation 6:1; is 'asteres'. Strongs definition is: Bright object in the sky. This covers planets, stars, comets, meteors and now our satellites.

I find your determined opposition to the possibility of a CME doing exactly what the prophesies tell us will happen on the Day of the Lord's wrath, a little unusual. You are here to learn and discuss end time events, are you not? Flat rejection of a possible scenario is not discussion or rebuttal.
I have a list of 117 prophesies that can and will be literally fulfilled by a huge explosion of the suns surface. It will quickly pass, but will change the world and lead up to the Return of Jesus.

According to that definition, Revelation 6:13 would then read:

"And the bright objects in the sky fell unto the earth..."

So that would include all of the planets, stars, comets, meteors and satellites.

Not sure what Strong's you're looking at. Here's what I see:

STRONGS NT 792: ἀστήρ

ἀστήρ, ἀστέρος, ὁ (from the root, star (probably, as strewn over the sky), cf. ἄστρον, Latinstella, German Stern, English star; Fick, Part i. 250; Curtius, § 205; Vanicek, p. 1146; from Homer down); a star: Matthew 2:7, 9, 10 (accusative, ἀστεραν א* C; see ἄρσην at the end); ; Mark 13:25; 1 Corinthians 15:41; Revelation 6:13; Revelation 8:10-12; Revelation 9:1; Revelation 12:1, 4

No mention of a bright object.

You wish to be literal. I'm being even more literal than you are. How is that "flat rejection"?

 

[BABerean2]

I have a list of 117 prophesies that can and will be literally fulfilled by a huge explosion of the suns surface. It will quickly pass, but will change the world and lead up to the Return of Jesus.

The source of the fire and the timing of the fire is found below.

It comes from the Son, instead of the sun.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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