Salvation is in Christ and he is eternal life. The word abiding itself is not salvation.
Thank you for agreeing with me.
But if we abide in Christ through faith and continual belief then we abide in eternal life in the Son of God.
Just know that no one gets saved by "abiding". John 15 shows that in order to bear fruit, one must abide.
And, does "grieving" (Eph 5:18) or "quenching" (1 Thess 5:19) sound anything like abiding? No. And these are commands to STOP doing these things.
Which proves that believers may not abide, nor bear fruit. But, as believers, are STILL saved.
btw, I'm NOT advocating either grieving or quenching the Spirit. I STRONGLY advise against it, as Paul commanded believers to STOP doing these things.
My point is that salvation is secured for every believer. But alone with this guarantee, comes the reality of God's painful discipline for those who think they can "get away with" doing their own thing. Far from it.
Does being turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh sound anything like a mere "slap on the wrist"? Sure doesn't.
This abiding is directly related to eternal life in Christ and I can use many other verses to show this, for example
"24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If [conditional word] that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [to continue in the Son and in the Father is eternal life, this abiding is to continue knowing Hod and the Son John 17:2 KJV] 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. [this abiding has a promise attached to it IF we continue and remain or abide in Christ, that is that we will have eternal life in Christ Jesus Christ is that eternal life either he is in us or not (2 Cor 13:5, 1 John 1:1,2, 1 John 5:20 KJV] "(1 John 2:24,25 KJV)
You're still missing the meaning of abiding. The continuing is about fellowship, not relationship.
Can you separate your parent's DNA from you? Of course not. Neither can you separate God's DNA (indwelling Holy Spirit) from you.
I already showed how that fellowship is the partnership and participation in Christ as we live in him.
That's been my point from the start. We agree on this.
This is only as we abide, or remain, and continue in him. Only n this abiding can we say we know Jesus Christ. If we abide not we will be in sin and cannot say we have seen him neither known him (in that state of darkness, for we would not be in the light) this is all as John says as well as Jesus.)
Yet, none of this proves that salvation can be lost, or that one who has believed was never saved.
"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)
This is the spiritual DNA I just referred to. Go to v.9 for the actual words that denote this spiritual DNA. "God's seed".
This abiding Jesus speaks of is how we can be called his children and saved in Christ, if and only if WE ABIDE ( remain, dwell, continue) with him.
Disagree. We are saved by believing in Him, not abiding in Him. And we are called His children on the basis of believing in Him, not abiding in Him. Your view continues to be confused and not in line with the Bible. John 1:12 and Gal 3:26 tells us how to become His children.
If we do not we are in sin and don;t know him and are cast forth as a branch. This talk Jesus had is not just about agriculture. It is about he being the vine and believers the branches.
But nothing about loss of salvation. But loss of fellowship, and loss of fruit bearing.
And if we do not bear fruit from him then he said he will cut us off. W can do nothing without him as he said n that chapter.
Are you aware of the phrase "cut off" in the OT? He referred to dying due to violation of the law.
Exodus 31:14 - “ ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people.
So, in John 15, Jesus was alluding to the fact that non fruit bearing believers may suffer the "sin unto death" for their disobedience. That's what "cut off" refers to. Everyone in Israel during Jesus' life on earth knew that.
You are way off here trying to minimalize Jesus words in John 15 to some farming example only.
There's hardly anything "minimalized" regarding God's discipline unto death.
The cast off and withered and thrown into the fire. Obviously relates to those who do not continue or remain in Him and so without him they can do nothing but fade away and be eventually cast into the fire. He is not talking about farming or burning literal branches. He is referring to those who are wither in HIM or not. The context and meaning is not difficult to see. I marvel that you don't see this.
I marvel at your confusion.
I think your bias for your error in doctrine about the false OSAS has caused you to not accept any verses that directly rebuke it.
Since there aren't any verses that "directly rebuke it" (what a joke!), I'm not biased.
otoh, John 10:28 is the CLEAREST and most straightforward statement about eternal security in the Bible. It couldn't be more clear.
Those who have been given eternal life shall never perish. That's what Jesus said.
Do you believe this or not? It seems you do NOT, based on calling OSAS "false".
There's not ANY verses that make a clear and unambiguous statement that salvation can be lost. Not ANY. And most of the verses that are used to "support" that idea are parables and metaphors, hardly the way to clarify anything. Even Jesus' disciples couldn't understand His parables, and He had to explain them to His disciples.
Reconsider the entire context is about being in Christ and walking in the spirit and this is where Christ in us works .
Yep. Totally agree.
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (Clearly showing that the vine does not simply relate to a farming example but the vine is Jesus and the father the husbandman. If you try to avoid this you will not undrstand Jesus spiritual language of truth.)
2 Every branch in me [here those that are in Him and he in them are spiritually alive and have his life flowing through them to produce good works] that beareth not fruit he taketh away:[to be taken away here is to be taken out of Christ, the vine, and what life do they have then?] and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. [this abiding in Christ is salvation and life and from where all our works come from] As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.[Jesus explains that he is not talking about simple farming, he says "no more can ye, except ye abide in me"[this is as clear as it gets. He shows them that they are like a branch in him that can only have life if it is connected or remains and continues to abide in the vine]
OK, what does v.3 say? Jesus is declaring the 11 disciples "clean", meaning SAVED.
Then, the very next verse He said "abide in Me and I in you". It's a command to the disciples. If it referred to getting or being saved, then the disciples would be involved in their own salvation. That is foreign to the Bible and God's plan.
So, it was to SAVED people that Jesus told to abide in Him. And He gave the purpose of abiding: to bear fruit. Not to "get saved" or to "stay saved". But to bear fruit.
This is service to Christ. Only applicable to believers.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: [here Jesus defines what he is talking about and is not simply talking about farming and agricultural issues, which is obvious] He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [fruit here is not farming literal fruit, but spiritual and if they do not abide in him they can do nothing of life and any goodness. We are his workmanship created in Christ jesus unto good works. You know a tree by its fruit. A good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit. These spiritual examples are very important and relate directly to salvation and life in Christ.].
How is this not clearly about fruit bearing, and not salvation?
Because if they abide in him they have eternal life. if not they do not have eternal life abiding in them and so ae in death and withered.
Please provide any verse that links abiding with having eternal life. That abiding is the CAUSE of having eternal life.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[fruit bearing here is not about literal fruit but about spiritual fruit and by doing so we shall be his disciples. if not we are not his disciples as the example is showing]
Here is the REASON believers are to abide in Christ and bear fruit: to GLORIFY God. Not to get saved, or maintain salvation.
