Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelve apostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him. Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

This event in Matthew and Mark and other places is describing an event that started before Jesus died on the cross Jesus told them not to go to the gentiles or samaritans in another place and so this was not after the resurrection. Although some principles can apply to all who are sent out for all times. This was an actual event were they went out and cast ou deals etc. We read about this story in Luke as well where Jesus sent men out to cast out devils etc and they cam back and rejoiced that the devils were subject unto them and jesus said don't rejoice in this but that their names were written in the Lambs bok of life. This shows that they were saved before the cross and yet many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him n John 6:66. This shows that some of those whom were once in the book of life went away and lost salvation.

 

[Sammy-San]

What about Judas being called the son of perdition and being possessed by the devil?

 

[LoveofTruth]

What about Judas being called the son of perdition and being possessed by the devil?

Judas became that when he denied the Lord and betrayed him. before that jesus said he was his familiar friend. In matthew 1o0 we see clearly that Jesus called all 12 HIS disciples and sheep, sent to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas once belonged to the father and was saved.

 

[Sammy-San]

Judas became that when he denied the Lord and betrayed him. before that jesus said he was his familiar friend. In matthew 1o0 we see clearly that Jesus called all 12 HIS disciples and sheep, sent to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas once belonged to the father and was saved.

I thought Judas betrayed Jesus after Satan entered him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I thought Judas betrayed Jesus after Satan entered him.

when a person enters into unbelief they open themselves to satan, and the actual betrayal, starts in the heart but is done when Judas actually betrayed Jesus. The issue is not the timing or when Satan entered into him. But the fact that he once had the trust of jesus and was a sheep and saved and then betrayed Jesus and had his name blotted out of the book of life and went to his own place and it was better he had not ben born.

 

[Sammy-San]

when a person enters into unbelief they open themselves to satan, and the actual betrayal, starts in the heart but is done when Judas actually betrayed Jesus. The issue is not the timing or when Satan entered into him. But the fact that he once had the trust of jesus and was a sheep and saved and then betrayed Jesus and had his name blotted out of the book of life and went to his own place and it was better he had not ben born.

Does the Bible explain what led to Judas's unbelief?

 

[LoveofTruth]

Does the Bible explain what led to Judas's unbelief?

there are some hints but we know that a person departs from the living God through an evil heart of unbelief Hebrews 3:12, and there may be many reasons why he did so. We can give some. But the point is that he was a sheep, called one by Jesus and sent to the lost sheep. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he knows then and gives unto them eternal life. Eternal life is Jesus he is the life and eternal life in men, we see this in 1 John 1. So to abide in Christ is to abide ( remain ) in eternal life. But if a person lets hatred in his heart he is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3 i think. So we see that eternal life can be in a person and not abide in them if they have hatred or in unbelief

 

[JackRT]

Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here.

Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong.

Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references.

The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews?

This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection.

It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection.

There are some serious contradictions in these three sources.

We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple and had not been for over 200 years. They were replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.

 

[LoveofTruth]

What about Judas being called the son of perdition and being possessed by the devil?

also Jesus called the pharisees children of the devil and in a true sense every person who is not saved is a child of the devil. We se this in 1 John 3 as well

 

[LoveofTruth]

Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit in Matthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here.

Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong.

Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references.

The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews?

This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection.

It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection.

There are some serious contradictions in these three sources.

We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple and had not been for over 200 years. They were replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value. It would also appear that Matthew in mentioning this was using the literary technique of haggadic midrash in referencing Zecharia 11:12-13.

hello again, all your objections are easily answered

first when Paul mentions the twelve in 1 Cor 15. he must be referring to Mattias, because Judas died before the resurrection as far as we know. about the 12 one chosen we read. Matthias made up the twelve

"21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias." ( Acts 1:21-23

here we see clearly that Matthias did see the entire life of jesus from John until the resurrection. You seem to be distorting the truth here sir, and need to repent or to be corrected for your false witness.

also you mention about Jesus saying to the twelve that they shall sit on twelve thrones . if this does refer to Judas at the time. Then we see clearly that he was saved then and had certain promises to him as every believer has certain promises as well . But then he denied Jesus and was lost. Then in that fallen state he had no promises. The promises are then conditional upon continued faith as many scriptures could be show to prove.

so there is no contradiction at all

 

[Sammy-San]

there are some hints but we know that a person departs from the living God through an evil heart of unbelief Hebrews 3:12, and there may be many reasons why he did so. We can give some. But the point is that he was a sheep, called one by Jesus and sent to the lost sheep. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he knows then and gives unto them eternal life. Eternal life is Jesus he is the life and eternal life in men, we see this in 1 John 1. So to abide in Christ is to abide ( remain ) in eternal life. But if a person lets hatred in his heart he is a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3 i think. So we see that eternal life can be in a person and not abide in them if they have hatred or in unbelief

Do you think Judas was predestined to betray Jesus? Some people interpret the verse about, "so that the scriptures be fulfilled", in John 17 12, as that.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Do you think Judas was predestined to betray Jesus? Some people interpret the verse about, "so that the scriptures be fulfilled", in John 17 12, as that.

you are trying to mix other doctrines into this one. God predestines the plan of salvation that those who believe will be conformed to the image of his son. God does not make men sin or tempt men to sin. Christ is not the minister of sin as some teach he is.

and just because prophecy showed Judas betraying jesus and it was foreknown, doesn't mean God made him do it.

Many misunderstand prophecy and scriptures that showed what was going to happen

 

[SeventyOne]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelveapostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.

John 17:6 was a prayer AFTER Judas went to betray Jesus, and then the continued references to these men is that the Father would bless their ministries after He is taken out of the world, which doesn't apply to Judas.

2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve

Nope, one of them belonged to the devil.

3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.

Works neither make one saved nor prove salvation.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.

One's position or office doesn't mean one is saved.

5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.

Again, one's works or office doesn't imply salvation.

6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.

Judas was also a thief who was stealing out of the ministry purse and spending it on himself.

7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this

It doesn't say Judas was a sheep, it said he was sent "AS A SHEEP". It describes the condition of vulnerability in which he departed. You're really grasping at straws on this one.

8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13

And this means what to his state of salvation?

9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

I guess Balaams donkey was saved too.

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25

11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Where is it written either of these are signs of salvation?

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.

Jesus couldn't have earthly unsaved friends? Wasn't he the one hanging out with the sinners and tax collectors?

12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.

It says "book of the living", not "book of life". Besides, you skipped verse 27 which states, "let them not come into thy righteousness", which would contridict your claim Judas was once saved.

13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25

This is a fall from his ministry, as you quoted, not from salvation. Having a ministry doesn't make one saved. TBN is a prime current day example. Acts 1 is where his replacement in the ministry is recorded. If you want to make this about salvation, you would have to claim Matthias took over the salvation of Judas.

14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48

To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

Except that Jesus stated at the beginning that one of them was a devil and a son of perdition. So, this makes no sense.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.

You've given no viable evidence to support this claim.

so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give

7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

Nope.

 

[Tree of Life]

You've given way too much information to adequately respond to. I don't think that your exegesis legitimately establishes the conclusions that you're drawing. But I just have one simple question:

What exactly do you mean when you say that Judas was saved?

 

[LoveofTruth]

You've given way too much information to adequately respond to. I don't think that your exegesis legitimately establishes the conclusions that you're drawing. But I just have one simple question:

What exactly do you mean when you say that Judas was saved?

Judas was called a sheep by Jesus and jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep and he knows them.

 

[Tree of Life]

Judas was called a sheep by Jesus and jesus said he gives eternal life to his sheep and he knows them.

This is not a legitimate connection.

In Matthew 10 Jesus said that he was sending out his apostles and that they would be "like sheep in the midst of wolves". His point was that association with Jesus was going to be dangerous. Judas was indeed an apostle and was sent out "like a sheep in the midst of wolves". This does not mean that he is included in the "fold" of John 10 discussed below.

In John 10 Jesus said that he is a good shepherd who saves his sheep and gives them eternal life. The point here is that Jesus will certainly save those who are his.

 

[OcifferPls]

Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

"The twelve," as penned by Paul, could have more easily implicitly referred to Matthias, and we see this usage employed in the book of Acts:


And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26)

Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples... (Acts 6:2)

That does not prove Paul's intent, although, that Paul would have followed suit with an established common meaning, is certainly a simpler explanation than a conspiracy theory.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelveapostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

I am not so sure, because this would mean the entity Satan could snatch one from Christ's hand - which is categorically against what Christ said (not to mention it endows one with hopelessness concerning their salvation.)

Also, we have evidence that Judas repented for his sin - as in, he had a change of heart in truth. When Judas tried to return the money he got for selling out Christ, the pharisees were the ones who rejected it calling it blood money.

Then, somehow he killed himself AND disemboweled himself?

It sounds like, being such a high ranking member of Christ''s army, once he repented he was heavily assaulted by demons - psychologicallly, spiritually and physically.

In other words, Judas had a job to do that no man would ever want - to be the betrayer of the Christ. But, as Christ said even blasphemies can be forgiven, except against the Holy Spirit.


Remember, Peter directly denied Christ three times, then he repented immediately.


Even Judas' crime, I believe, can and likely is forgiven. Otherwise, all of us need to be worried about the Enemy''s ability to tempt us to the point where we lose our salvation - despite repentence.

 

[SeventyOne]

(staff edit)

IN YOUR OPINION, that means he was saved, but the text doesn't support the conclusion. You have to make those sent in the condition of sheep among wolves to being actual sheep in a spiritual sense. Still grasping at straws with the inaccurate equivication.


I see I left a part out. "Blotted out of the book of the living" = dead, or no longer living. If you suddenly want to make this also the book of life (something completely different), you will need to prove it other than you saying so.



The words of Jesus that John shares was, "and one of you is a devil". Present tense. It was John's words which explain the end works of that devil in his ultimate betrayal. Quit twisting the text.



I've misled no one and I've twisted nothing. The twisting and misleading started at the title of this thread. It is this thread teaching a salvation by works, a false gospel.

 

[graceandpeace]

I really don't know that we can say much for certain about Judas, given the conflicted & limited info presented in the Bible - let alone whether he was (ever) "saved." I don't find proof-texting very convincing.

I do wonder about Judas though. I think most Christians would agree he betrayed Jesus. I wonder if Judas wanted forgiveness? If Jesus could forgive Peter's denial, could he forgive Judas's betrayal? All I can say is that I believe God is merciful & can forgive whoever he wants. It's not for me to speculate on any one person.