Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[The Times]

So, how can anyone lose salvation after Jesus said THAT?

The problem is you are not reading it in respect to the required cultural context and context of situation.

Believing to their culture, is not a mere thought, rather it is a life long devotion.

A person can believe and not be devoted or loss devotion. The parable of the sower explains it.

Salvation itself is not being understood in respect to the correct cultural context. Salvation to their culture is ongoing and conditional, between a two party transaction, God and man.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 3:12 is the reference
"See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

It speaks of turning away from God. It doesn't say anything about God turning away from you. I think you're reading it backwards.

And again you are wrong about the prodigal son. He was DEAD and alive again. He was dead and lost when he was out of the fathers house and alive again when he came back.

Nope. Pretty sure he was quite alive when spending his inheritance on prostitutes, AND when finally ending up in a pig sty feeding them.

What "died" was fellowship with his father. Can you find anything about him losing sonship in the parable? I thought not. Because they never happened.

EVEN when he thought he could demote himself and return as a servant. However, when he returned (confession and repentance), he never got that nonsense out.

Here's what he thought after coming to his senses, in the pig sty:
18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you.
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’

This is what he did manage to say to his father upon his return:
21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

Now, notice the very next verse:
22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.
23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate.
24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

The "but" interrupts what he was prepared to say, but was prevented by his father.

So even though he was willing to be demoted from son to servant, it never happened.

What can't be argued is that the status of son remained throughout the parable. It did not change.

The issue is obvious for those who discern truth. Fellowship was the issue.

Luke 15:24
"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

to be out of the fathers house means your dead and lost.

Sure. If fellowship is the issue. Fellowship had died, and had been lost.

Are you familiar with metaphors and figures of speech?

Every branch that does not abide in Christ is cut off and lost and dead and withered and if they abide not and die in that state will be cast into the fire.

The metaphor here (John 15) is also about fellowship.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Can you change your birth parents? No. No different in the spiritual sense either."

Galatians 4:19,20
"My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, 20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you."

This section is like the prodigal son in some way.

No, not in any way. It's about spiritual maturity, in which the believer grows up in his salvation and becomes "Christ-like".

The New birth and salvation and abiding in Christ is to have Christ formed in you.

Sorry, but no. The new birth and salvation are synonymous. Abiding in Christ is living in the power of the Holy Spirit, rather than grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, in which the believer is out of fellowship.

If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.

This speaks of being born again.

Notice they began in the Spirit in Galatians chapter 3 and then some fell and went back to the law etc. and Paul said they needed to be born again , again, and he even said he stood in doubt of them. Does that sound like he gave them eternal security? No.

This sorely misunderstands Paul. He did NOT say they needed to be "born again". He was speaking of spiritual maturity. Returning to the Law demonstrated a reversion back to their former beliefs. Instead of growing up in their salvation.

1 Pet 2:2 - Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

What does this verse say to you?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"The phrase "depart the living God" is a reference to fellowship. Like walking away from someone."

No

This departing comes from an evil heart of unbelief

Believers who aren't trusting God on a day to day basis for their sustenance have a heart of unbelief.

But since you seem to be resisting any concept of fellowship, I don't expect my posts to be clear to you.

As an example, any believer who believes that they can lose their salvation are NOT believing what Jesus said.

John 10:28a - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

Here we have the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ Himself, as the GIVER of the gift.
The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

So, this verse is a plain and straightforward statement that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So said Jesus. Those who believe salvation can be lost do NOT believe what Jesus said.

It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE for a recipient of eternal life to ever perish.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this, in reference to John 10:28:
"So, how can anyone lose salvation after Jesus said THAT?"

The problem is you are not reading it in respect to the required cultural context and context of situation.

There is NOTHING in either "cultural context" or "context of situation" that changes the clear words of Jesus.

He gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

He is the CAUSE, and never perishing is the EFFECT.

Believing to their culture, is not a mere thought, rather it is a life long devotion.

No one ever suggested that believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is a 'mere thought'.

Whatever gave you that idea?

But since you bring it up, please define saving faith. By that, I mean what must be believed, and what is the purpose of believing?

All faith must have an object, and a purpose.

A person can believe and not be devoted or loss devotion.

I recommend a Greek lexicon and learning what Greek "believing" really means. It has nothing to do with devotion, much less life long devotion. That's merely adding one's own efforts into trying to get saved. And it doesn't work.

Also, please define what "grace" means, since you think your own efforts are part of getting saved.

The parable of the sower explains it.

Not even close.

Salvation itself is not being understood in respect to the correct cultural context. Salvation to their culture is ongoing and conditional, between a two party transaction, God and man.

That opinion is refuted by the clear Greek tenses. Salvation is IMMEDIATE upon the action of believing in Jesus Christ for it.

And the use of the aorist tense (past action) proves that from the act of beleving in Chrits, one IS saved.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I said:
"The phrase "depart the living God" is a reference to fellowship. Like walking away from someone."

Believers who aren't trusting God on a day to day basis for their sustenance have a heart of unbelief.

But since you seem to be resisting any concept of fellowship, I don't expect my posts to be clear to you.

As an example, any believer who believes that they can lose their salvation are NOT believing what Jesus said.

John 10:28a - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

Here we have the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ Himself, as the GIVER of the gift.
The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing.

So, this verse is a plain and straightforward statement that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So said Jesus. Those who believe salvation can be lost do NOT believe what Jesus said.

It is therefore IMPOSSIBLE for a recipient of eternal life to ever perish.

You are wrong here in your understanding according to scripture.

When a person abides in Christ they have him in them also and he is “eternal life” and in this life in Christ they are able to have partnership or fellowship with him. If they abide not in him they are cast forth as a branch and withered because they did not abide or ( continue, dwell or remain in him) as the Greek says, then they have no life and wither and are dead and can be cast into the fire if they die in this state.

And if a person abides not still in unbelief they can be grafted back in

Romans 11 - 23. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. “

You misunderstand what eternal life is. You look at this as a state of being or like being in a place that you can never go from. But eternal life is in Christ he is eternal life . If he dwells with us and we with him then we are in him that is true this is eternal life in Christ

1 John 5 - 20. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. “

And John says to them

1 John 3 - 15. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

Notice that “eternal life” can abide (remain or continue or dwell) with a person or it can not remain with them or abide IN them.

You are missing the mystery

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are wrong here in your understanding according to scripture.

With respect, your opinion of my understanding is wrong. According to Scripture.

When a person abides in Christ they have him in them also and he is “eternal life” and in this life in Christ they are able to have partnership or fellowship with him.

Thanks for finally agreeing with me! Once placed in Christ (Eph 1:13), the believer is able to have partnership/fellowship with Him.

But, are you aware of 2 commands Paul gave believers in this regard?
1. Stop grieving the Holy Spirit. Eph 4:30
2. Stop quenching the Holy Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19

Do either of these things sound like "abiding" or having fellowship with the Lord? No, of course not.

Yet, in Eph 4:30, which is the command to stop grieving the Holy Spirit, Paul adds an important note:
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Wouldn't you think that if salvation could be lost, grieving the Spirit would be the way? Yet Paul reminds us that we have been sealed for the day of redemption.

So, instead of some warning about losing salvation from grieving the Spirit, we're given assurance for the day of redemption, all on the basis of our having been sealed.

If they abide not in him they are cast forth as a branch and withered because they did not abide or ( continue, dwell or remain in him) as the Greek says, then they have no life and wither and are dead and can be cast into the fire if they die in this state.

Then I take this as not believing what Jesus said about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

He said He "gives them eternal life". This would be recipients of eternal life.
Then He said, "and they shall NEVER perish".

Those who believe that salvation can be lost believe that some recipients of eternal life MAY perish.

in direct opposition to what the Savior says. How do you sleep at night?

You misunderstand what eternal life is.

I think it is clear that you have no idea what I understand.

But I do understand your opposition to what Jesus said in John 10:28.

You look at this as a state of being or like being in a place that you can never go from.

Only because of what Jesus said about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

But eternal life is in Christ he is eternal life .

Exactly!! Another reason why I'm in a place that I can never go from.

Maybe you're just not aware of Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Do you understand what "deposit" means and signifies?
Do you understand what "guaranteeing our inheritance" means and signifies?
Do you understand what "redemption of those who are God's possession" means and signifies?

Seems you do not.

If he dwells with us and we with him then we are in him that is true this is eternal life in Christ

No. Now you're describing fellowship with Him.

You are missing the mystery

There is no mystery regarding your lack of understanding of many things.

 

[The Times]

I asked this, in reference to John 10:28:

My friend! You have been addressed by @LoveofTruth and myself and I can assure you that your citation of John 10:28, is being applied according to the method of "Proof Texting".

I need you to understand what"Proof Texting" is, please, please understand what you are applying. You are stripping out the context of culture and context of situation, completely out of the verse and applying your own narrative at odds with the writer and at odds with those spoken words of Jesus.

You need to negotiate these few versus very carefully with other versus in scripture and to bring them into harmony. Your claims assert one verse whilst completely ignoring other versus that are closely Hermeneutically woven together to negotiate a path of least resistance, that is close to zero.

Let me explain to you friend and in love, please listen, because I can discern an intelligent person that I am dialoguing with. The interpretation of one verse is not the method of Hermeneutics, but one requiring the building of a bigger picture, that brings into view a doctrine that is solidly found by closely woving a tightly nit doctrinal package that is not based on a smoking gun verse to dismiss all other versus, but it plots its course carefully along a trajectory of least resistance, doctrinally speaking.

What I am writing is lengthy, but it is for your benefit friend. I urge you to come up to scratch with your Hermeneutics and I do not mean it in a condescending way, but out of shear love for you to grasp the enormity of it and how many have given their lives to this and have even delved into the primary discourses of that culture and their historic context of situation, in order to establish the truth, through a jigsaw puzzle that is not built up on a mere piece, that is a single verse, but one that fits together in macro package, without resistance and this my friend is what I want you to be an expert in.

Please understand what "Proof Texting" is......

Many times when someone discusses what the Bible teaches what they may use, even though they may be unaware of it, what is called Proof Text. Proof texting uses certain short passages, many times only a single verse, pulled from the Bible in support of a particular belief or doctrine.

The problem with this method is that the person who is Proof texting usually gives their selected verses a meaning that may be entirely different from what the writer intended. The Bible is written in such a way that most verses cannot be correctly understood in a stand-alone fashion. The context of a particular verse, who wrote it, the time period in which it was written, where did they write it, etc. is needed to arrive at what God intended it to convey.

A better way of understanding the scriptures than through proof texting is through what is called Hermeneutics. This technical term simply refers to the process or method of carefully analyzing what a particular passage might mean. Factors such as who wrote the passage, the period it was written, where and to whom the passage was written, etc. need to be considered in order to arrive at a correct understanding of what the Bible actually teaches.

Lastly, any interpretation of Biblical text needs to stand the test of what other related parts of Scripture have to say about what is studied. This is one of the foundational principles to studying God's word! Simply using one piece of text as "proof" of a certain belief, and leaving out other relevant verses, is not honestly seeking to know the mind of God.

10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little (Isaiah 28:10).

http :// www. bible study. org /beginner/definition-of-christian-terms/prooftexting.html

"So, how can anyone lose salvation after Jesus said THAT?"

You need to apply all of scripture and not just a few versus out of context.

You need to consider in your Hermeneutical application of the Word, the Pharisical priests who were part and parcel of God's Levitical Administration, The Church of their time. Listen please, "The Church of their Time".

Look what Jesus said......

Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. (John 10:1-2)

The gate is Jesus, for all must enter in through Jesus, but the Pharisees refused to do so, claiming to be the establishment that Moses founded. This context forms the foundation of this dialogue between Jesus and the Pharisees (the two parties) and is detrimental to their context of situation.

Let us learn more......

6I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. (John 10:6)

Exegtically, without going into the macro taxonomy of things, for the sake of time and length of written text, Jesus is alluding to the other sheep being the many gentile nations, who were not of the original sheep pen that God established, through his Levitical Church. The words of Jesus had prophetic implications also.

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. (John 10:25)

Jesus is speaking to the priests of The Church of those days (context of situation). Remember Hermeneutics friend.

but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. (John 10:26)

So now, please listen, Jesus isn't giving some salvation formulae or a definitive doctrine for salvation as concerning the other gentile sheep who he will bring to the pen. Jesus is just making a "GENERALISED contrasting statement", to the intended recipients, within their context of situation and context of culture as God's proclaimed Church of those days. Remember Jesus went to the Temple and had spoken many times in the Temple and many called him Rabbi, meaning Teacher.

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Now, when you grasp the dialogue between the two parties, between Jesus and the Pharisees (Church Establishemnt), you will come to the understanding that Jesus is merely making a "generalised contrasting statement", solely meant to convey his point of contention with the Pharisical authorities or the Church establishment. So now, you need to dissect the whole dialogue from a tribunal aspect, concerning statement of Facts, Issues and Contentions.

As an exercise for you and others, go through the entire chapter and dedicate your time, in establishing the statement of Facts, Issues and Contentions, between the two parties and then you will understand why Jesus is making that Fact Claim mentioned in Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. (John 19:7).

The Pharisees make their own claim, then Jesus alludes to the issues of their unbelief, in not believing that he is the Son of God and their refusal to enter through him as the gate. The contentions become heated up, where they want to grab Jesus and to do him harm, yet it is now quite apparent that Jesus is making a "generalised contrasting statement" of Facts, relating to the Pharisees context of situation of unbelief.

This is pertinent for you to understand, because when you apply that statement to the modern Church of today, you are misrepresenting what Jesus said. Jesus is not applying a statement to all who believe in him, but is making a correlation that those who do not enter through him, are not his sheep.

So, the modern Church can also fall into the same Pharisical trap, where they believed that they were the church establishment, yet were betting that their faith or belief in Moses, their prophets and their sacred scripture, would allow them automatic entry, when the belief that Jesus was alluding to, is to devotionally enter through him as the gate. So that a modern church establishment betting on their belief as gain say for entry in Christ's pen, the reply is that belief is not a state of thought at any given time, as accounting to being Christ's sheep, but in actually entering through the narrow gate, which requires a life devoted to Christ and in staying the course unto biological death.

That is why this life long belief, is an ongoing faith works in progress, in staying the course through the narrow gate and being completely and utterly devoted to Christ, even onto death. This is the belief that Jesus requires, for one to be called his sheep and it is not once saved always saved, but once called, always staying the course, even onto death and this belief is solely tied to continually entering the narrow gate, throughout a justified in Christ life long sanctifying walk with God the Holy Spirit (John 3:5).

The Spirit is the one who places the final seal as far as our salvation is concerned.

IF indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life
because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. (Romans 8:9-11)

If a justified believer, is not plotting away in their life, by NOT staying the course of the narrow gate, that is they are NOT staying in Christ and are straying, then Paul states they do no have the Spirit of Christ. This is the dynamic aspect of faith, where Jesus explains the role of the Comforter in John 14, that he will be in us and we in him and this close union, is a devotional life long journey that the sanctifying Spirit takes upon Him, to seal us onto redemption before we biologically die.

The Holy Spirit is God who places his seal upon us before we die, in guaranteeing what is to come. The you in me and I in you, is a marriage, a two party transaction, that requires faithfulness and it can also be nullified, if justified believer doesn't remain in Christ. They will be divorced because of their unfaithfulness and this is what Paul is alluding to in having or not having the Spirit of Christ. It comes down to the sanctifying relationship of a justified coming into the fullness of Christ, through their devotional life long walk with God the Holy Spirit.

Removing the Holy Spirit from the salvation equation of John 3:5, is to dismiss God's will and only make relevant and to emphasise your own will upon God, forgetting that salvation is a two party transaction, that is not ratified until the Testator dies (Hebrews 9:28, 2 Timothy 4:6-8)

There is NOTHING in either "cultural context" or "context of situation" that changes the clear words of Jesus.

You believe what you "Proof Text" is credible, especially after all I have written to you above?

He gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

John 10 is being applied to the Pharisees, the Church establishment. Do you know what this means. They refused to enter in the gate and this is what accounts for belief.

 

[The Times]

He is the CAUSE, and never perishing is the EFFECT.

Guilty of "Proof Texting".

No one ever suggested that believing in Jesus Christ for salvation is a 'mere thought'.

Really!
Is entering the gate a mere thought or a life long devotion in marriage (spiritual union), with the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8).

Whatever gave you that idea?

Hermeneutics and an open mind for correction. I learn from others who are of the body of Christ.

But since you bring it up, please define saving faith. By that, I mean what must be believed, and what is the purpose of believing?

Saving faith, is a life long devotion in spiritual union with the Spirit of Christ, by staying the course unto biological death, by NOT straying from the narrow gate (Jesus), that leads to the pen, on the day of judgment, when the harvesters separate the Wheat from the many Tares (bad seeds on none fertile ground of the heart).

All faith must have an object, and a purpose.

Your point is becoming obtuse at this moment and it ignores everything, bare what you dictate by your terms to God. So you believe that you have the final say, whether you are going to be with Christ Jesus or not, is that right?

I recommend a Greek lexicon and learning what Greek "believing" really means. It has nothing to do with devotion, much less life long devotion. That's merely adding one's own efforts into trying to get saved. And it doesn't work.

Thank you, but do you see a flipping here from your end. Originally you were not opposed to devotion by saying and also implying, what gave you that idea that it is a mere thought and not a devotion and now you have flipped, in your second or third response.

Also, please define what "grace" means, since you think your own efforts are part of getting saved.

In another thread. It is off topic here friend. Just stick with the Thesis of the Topic.

Not even close.

Really, how do you measure and to take account of this finding of yours?

That opinion is refuted by the clear Greek tenses. Salvation is IMMEDIATE upon the action of believing in Jesus Christ for it.

"Proof Texting" being applied with Greek term meaning and tenses, is meaningless, when you ignore context of situation and context of culture (Jewish Church establishment as recepients).

And the use of the aorist tense (past action) proves that from the act of beleving in Chrits, one IS saved.

Please, Stop!

I wish you to learn Hermeneutics. Please re-read John 10 in context of situation and culture. I have given you plenty to think about. Please have an open mind and enjoy learning from this dialogue. I want you to do well in hermeneutics, so please give it a try.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My friend! You have been addressed by @LoveofTruth and myself and I can assure you that your citation of John 10:28, is being applied according to the method of "Proof Texting".

I assure you I have not done that. I have shown a very clear verse on eternal security.

No one has been able to show that Jesus was teaching something else in that verse.

The verse is about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having (possessing eternal life).
The CAUSE is, of course, Jesus Himself. He said, "I give them eternal life".

No debate on that. He alone gives eternal life.

The EFFECT is never perishing. He said, "and they shall never perish".

No debate on that, either. Those given eternal life shall never perish.

So, there goes the notion that a saved person can perish.

I need you to understand what"Proof Texting" is, please, please understand what you are applying. You are stripping out the context of culture and context of situation, completely out of the verse and applying your own narrative at odds with the writer and at odds with those spoken words of Jesus.

I have provided a clear explanation of what Jesus said. If anyone can prove that He wasn't talking about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life, be my guest.

Your hiding behind the excuse of "context of culture and situation" is just nonsense.

Words mean things. So show me from your excuse of "context" what Jesus was REALLY saying then.

You need to negotiate these few versus very carefully with other versus in scripture and to bring them into harmony.

I don't need to bring any verses into harmony with any other verses. All verses are already IN harmony.

Your claims assert one verse whilst completely ignoring other versus that are closely Hermeneutically woven together to negotiate a path of least resistance, that is close to zero.

No, what I've shown from John 10:28 is that NO OTHER VERSE teaches loss of salvation. If that were true, then what Jesus said cannot be true.

The onus is on you to prove that Jesus wasn't talking about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

I in fact DARE you to do that.

Let me explain to you friend and in love, please listen, because I can discern an intelligent person that I am dialoguing with. The interpretation of one verse is not the method of Hermeneutics, but one requiring the building of a bigger picture, that brings into view a doctrine that is solidly found by closely woving a tightly nit doctrinal package that is not based on a smoking gun verse to dismiss all other versus, but it plots its course carefully along a trajectory of least resistance, doctrinally speaking.

So, basically, what I'm hearing from this is that you can't just take any single claim or sentence that Jesus uttered and make anything from it. That one must consider a whole bunch of other verses in other CONTEXTS in order to decipher what He meant in that one verse, huh?

What I am writing is lengthy, but it is for your benefit friend. I urge you to come up to scratch with your Hermeneutics and I do not mean it in a condescending way, but out of shear love for you to grasp the enormity of it and how many have given their lives to this and have even delved into the primary discourses of that culture and their historic context of situation, in order to establish the truth, through a jigsaw puzzle that is not built up on a mere piece, that is a single verse, but one that fits together in macro package, without resistance and this my friend is what I want you to be an expert in.

There isn't anything in your lengthy writing that even comes close to properly exegeting John 10:28.

Please understand what "Proof Texting" is......

So go ahead and explain (exegete) what Jesus really was teaching in John 10:28 then.

btw, there are many passages that teach eternal security. It's just that John 10:28 is the BEST and MOST CLEAR verse on the subject.

One that the OSNAS crowd is UNABLE to prove otherwise. So they come up with the lame excuse of "context of culture and situation" in order to water down the verse that they are UNABLE to exegete in order to discount eternal security.

Many times when someone discusses what the Bible teaches what they may use, even though they may be unaware of it, what is called Proof Text. Proof texting uses certain short passages, many times only a single verse, pulled from the Bible in support of a particular belief or doctrine.

How many verses are in the Bible that plainly SAY that one can lose salvation?

Zero.

The problem with this method is that the person who is Proof texting usually gives their selected verses a meaning that may be entirely different from what the writer intended.

Oh, I see. So when Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish, He really meant to say that they MAY perish, huh? Wow.

The Bible is written in such a way that most verses cannot be correctly understood in a stand-alone fashion.

This thought may satisfy your guilt for disagreeing or denying what Jesus plainly said, but I'm sure not buying any of it.

The context of a particular verse, who wrote it, the time period in which it was written, where did they write it, etc. is needed to arrive at what God intended it to convey.

I'll be waiting for your scholarly exegesis of John 10:28. Hopefully, some time this year would be good.

A better way of understanding the scriptures than through proof texting is through what is called Hermeneutics. This technical term simply refers to the process or method of carefully analyzing what a particular passage might mean.

Oh, so that's it, huh. What a certain passage "might mean". OK. So you're able to insert your own subjective feelings into the mix, huh. Are you kidding? Get serious.

Factors such as who wrote the passage, the period it was written, where and to whom the passage was written, etc. need to be considered in order to arrive at a correct understanding of what the Bible actually teaches.

And....none of this has any influence on the very clear words of Jesus in John 10:28.

Lastly, any interpretation of Biblical text needs to stand the test of what other related parts of Scripture have to say about what is studied.

Not a problem. As I said, there are many other passages in other contexts that teach the very same thing.

This is one of the foundational principles to studying God's word! Simply using one piece of text as "proof" of a certain belief, and leaving out other relevant verses, is not honestly seeking to know the mind of God.

10. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little (Isaiah 28:10).

Like I said, there are many other passages in different contexts that teach the same thing. But John 10:28 says it so plainly.

You need to apply all of scripture and not just a few versus out of context.

Then please explain how John 10:28 DOESN'T teach the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

Now, when you grasp the dialogue between the two parties, between Jesus and the Pharisees (Church Establishemnt), you will come to the understanding that Jesus is merely making a "generalised contrasting statement", solely meant to convey his point of contention with the Pharisical authorities or the Church establishment. So now, you need to dissect the whole dialogue from a tribunal aspect, concerning statement of Facts, Issues and Contentions.

As an exercise for you and others, go through the entire chapter and dedicate your time, in establishing the statement of Facts, Issues and Contentions, between the two parties and then you will understand why Jesus is making that Fact Claim mentioned in Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. (John 19:7).

Well, you're sure trying very hard to discount what Jesus clearly SAID. Sad.

That is why this life long belief, is an ongoing faith works in progress, in staying the course through the narrow gate and being completely and utterly devoted to Christ, even onto death. This is the belief that Jesus requires, for one to be called his sheep and it is not once saved always saved, but once called, always staying the course, even onto death and this belief is solely tied to continually entering the narrow gate, throughout a justified in Christ life long sanctifying walk with God the Holy Spirit (John 3:5).

OK, you disagree with the very clear words of Jesus then. His words REFUTE your view. And you've failed to show otherwise.

The Spirit is the one who places the final seal as far as our salvation is concerned.

He sure does. Eph 1:13,14. Another passage on eternal security, for those with eyes to see.

You believe what you "Proof Text" is credible, especially after all I have written to you above?

No, I believe that what Jesus said was PERFECTLY CLEAR for anyone objective enough to accept what He SAID about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Your job is to exegete the verse to prove that He wasn't talking about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Which will be impossible, of course.

John 10 is being applied to the Pharisees, the Church establishment. Do you know what this means. They refused to enter in the gate and this is what accounts for belief.

How come you seem to be unaware that none of this changes the clear words and meaning of John 10:28?

Of course "entering through the gate" refers to faith in Jesus Christ.

But the point of 10:28 is that those given eternal life shall never perish.

Do any unbelievers ever receive eternal life? No. So only saved people receive eternal life. And from the MOMENT they receive eternal life, John 10:28 GUARANTEES that they shall never perish.

You see (proobably you don't, actually) our salvation is totally based on what Jesus Christ has done for us. None of our salvation is based on what we DO for Jesus.

So the teaching that one must continue to believe, continue to be obedient, etc in order to never perish tarnishes what Jesus taught.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm NOT teaching or defending immoral behavior, etc. There IS a consequence to such behavior. Just read Heb 12:5-11 to find out. It's called painful discipline. And we have examples: 1 Cor 5 (incest), 1 Cor 10 (Exodus generation), 1 Cor 11;30 (abusing Communion), Acts 5 (lying). So sinful behavior cannot be condoned.

But neither can the FALSE TEACHING about losing salvation.

If there's anything we can do to undo our salvation, then we are in charge of our salvation. That is bunk.

Jesus is the author and finisher of our salvation. Heb 12:2

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"He is the CAUSE, and never perishing is the EFFECT."

Guilty of "Proof Texting".

No, I merely made a correct observation. Which you've failed to disprove.

So, I'm waiting for your scholarly exegesis of John 10:28.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It speaks of turning away from God. It doesn't say anything about God turning away from you. I think you're reading it backwards.

No, the verse in Hebrews and surrounding verses show clearly that believers can depart from the living God. (the black text is mine sorry for the eyesore in viewing it, but I wanted to address certain text in the sentence directly)

"12 Take heed, brethren,[talking to believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,[not works but unbelief all unbelievers shall have their part in the lake of fire as scripture says Revelation 21:8 says] in departing from the living God.[to depart from God means you are not with him any more this takes place in the heart of unbelief you no longer have the Spirit, you are no longer impressed with the Spirit or sealed]13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.[the heart can be hardened to God and the seed cannot enter] 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,[partakers in Greek means a sharer partner participant with Christ] if we hold [showing the condition] the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;[our confidence is our continual faith, if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from faith some will depart from the faith and cast off their faith and deny the faith]...19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.:[none can enter in because of unbelief, if any brother or sister allows their heart to be hardened and has a evil heart of unbelief they wont enter the rest in Christ either](Hebrews 3:12-14,19 KJV)

And that is right God doesn't depart from us as long as we abide in faith and believe until the end. But if we have an evil heart and depart and become hardened through sin he will depart. God is with us as long as we are with him through faith. In this way we abide in eternal life. But if we have unbelief and depart we do not abide in eternal life.

2 Chronicles 15:2
"... The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you." (notice he is with us and doesn't leave us until or if we forsake him first as long as we abide in faith and continue in the faith we are kept by the power of God and none can snatch this from his hand. But if we have an evil heart of unbelief and depart and forsake him then he will forsake us. This is what scripture teaches in many places and therefore OSAS is not true. As we continue in the faith and believe until the end we have assurance and confidence and hope. But if we do no we have no hope or assurance or confidence.)

Jesus speaks of this abiding IN HIM in John 15 and he is very clear about it.

"4 Abide in me, and I in you. [to be in him is life and salvation the word "abide" means to "remain or continue or dwell" this is Jesus exhorting them to do this] As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire,[if a man does not continue or remain with Jesus they are cut off, cast forth and all they can do without Christ is wither and die. Even if they had the Spirit they are no longer in the Spirit or the Spirit in them as Jesus clearly says] and they are burned.[a reference to the fire that awaits] 7 If [conditional not OSAS] ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[if they abide and his words abide in them, then they are his disciples, but as he said if those IN HIM do not continue or remain ( abide) in him then they are cast forth]] 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [Jesus tells them to continue abode remain) in his love, this is a condition, if they could not help but continue in his love why tell them to do so]10 If [conditional again not OSAS] ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, [notice the word "might" remain in you again this is not OSAS] and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.[conditional promise again you are his friends "if" you do what he says and abide in him and his word (remain continue)]"(John 15:4-14 KJV)

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Nope. Pretty sure he was quite alive when spending his inheritance on prostitutes, AND when finally ending up in a pig sty feeding them.

Nope, you just deny the words of the father there who said he was "DEAD" and "LOST" when he was out of the house. Believers are in the house of God and if we depart through an devil heart of unbelief then we are dead and lost also and as Jesus said we can be cast forth and withered and burned.

This story is obviously speaking of a son who went out of the house was dead and lost came to himself and repented and went back home in faith. Yes he was a lost and dead son (spiritually is the figure). But there are also fallen ANGELS we know in scripture who were once with the father and abode in the truth and then they went out and abode not in the truth any more and will end up in the lake of fire. Does that make them any less evil angels, or fallen angels? If God spared not the "angels that sinned", doesn't this show that they can still be referred to as an angel, or in this case a son and still be dead and lost and on their way to the lake of fire?

What "died" was fellowship with his father. Can you find anything about him losing sonship in the parable? I thought not. Because they never happened.

No he was dead and lost as the father said. And though humans are all Gods offspring (Acts 17 KJV) many will end up in hell. All we like sheep have gone astray, but many of those will still end up in hell.

You simply fight against the clear text here when the father said he was dead and is alive again and lost and then found. He was only alive when the father brought him back in. In this place with the father in salvation and life is fellowship and communion with him. But that is eternal life to know God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent. If a man walks in darkness and says he is in the light he lies. If a believer walks in darkness and says they are still a son or in the light they lie as scripture shows. But if they walk in the light (in Christ and salvation) then and only then does the blood of Christ cleanse them from all sin and they have true fellowship in Christ which is salvation.

"6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."(1 John 1:6,7 KJV)

This "fellowship" or communion, partnership and sharer participant with God is salvation. This is to know God and Jesus Christ and to walk in the light. The opposite of that salvation in the light is to walk in darkness and then you lie if you say you are in the light or saved and abiding in Christ still. So only in the light of salvation can you be said to have fellowship with God.

Your attempt to try and escape the consequence of the scriptures by using the word "fellowship" is not right. To have fellowship with God is to walk with God and share in the life in God as we walk in His light.

"6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."(1 John 3:6 KJV)

"3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."(John 17:3 KJV)


I have to find time to address your many issues and comments. I can do it, but it takes time. I am a bit busy right now, soon Lord willing. They are not difficult to address, there are some clarifications that need to be made though and some things are a bit harder for some to see because of they way they see certain text. But we can discuss it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, the verse in Hebrews and surrounding verses show clearly that believers can depart from the living God. (the black text is mine sorry for the eyesore in viewing it, but I wanted to address certain text in the sentence directly)

Yes, just as the prodigal departed from his father. Yet, during the entire time, he REMAINED the son and his father remained his father. Please don't miss this point.

"12 Take heed, brethren,[talking to believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief,[not works but unbelief all unbelievers shall have their part in the lake of fire as scripture says Revelation 21:8 says] in departing from the living God.[to depart from God means you are not with him any more this takes place in the heart of unbelief you no longer have the Spirit, you are no longer impressed with the Spirit or sealed]13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.[the heart can be hardened to God and the seed cannot enter] 14 For we are made partakers of Christ,[partakers in Greek means a sharer partner participant with Christ] if we hold [showing the condition] the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;[our confidence is our continual faith, if we continue in the faith grounded and settled and are not moved away from faith some will depart from the faith and cast off their faith and deny the faith]...19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.:[none can enter in because of unbelief, if any brother or sister allows their heart to be hardened and has a evil heart of unbelief they wont enter the rest in Christ either](Hebrews 3:12-14,19 KJV)

This does not support the idea of losing salvation. It's all about fellowship with Christ (partakers).

btw, consider v.19. Did Moses himself get to enter the land? No. Why not? The verse says why he didn't. "because of unbelief". Yet, we know Moses is in heaven because on the Mount of Transfiguration, Moses appeared with Elijah to Jesus. Proof that he was saved. Yet he was barred from entering the land "because of unbelief".

Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Num 27:14 - for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

What say you?

And that is right God doesn't depart from us as long as we abide in faith and believe until the end.

Please provide Scripture that actually says this. I'm not one to accept opinions without evidence.

But if we have an evil heart and depart and become hardened through sin he will depart.

Where does it say that God will depart in Hebrews? Now you're just moving the goalposts.

God is with us as long as we are with him through faith. In this way we abide in eternal life. But if we have unbelief and depart we do not abide in eternal life.

Why believe what the Bible doesn't teach?

2 Chronicles 15:2
"... The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you." (notice he is with us and doesn't leave us until or if we forsake him first as long as we abide in faith and continue in the faith we are kept by the power of God and none can snatch this from his hand. But if we have an evil heart of unbelief and depart and forsake him then he will forsake us. This is what scripture teaches in many places and therefore OSAS is not true. As we continue in the faith and believe until the end we have assurance and confidence and hope. But if we do no we have no hope or assurance or confidence.)

Now your challenge is to prove that "forsake you" here means loss of salvation.

But I'll explain what the word indicates. God told the Israelites (not NT believers) that as long as they obeyed Him, He would bless them. But if they forsook Him, He would remove blessings from them.

Isa 1:18-20 says the same thing:
18 “Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

Jesus speaks of this abiding IN HIM in John 15 and he is very clear about it.

Why is it so difficult to accept the principle of fellowship being the subject of abiding in this chapter?

Just because it refutes your agenda?

Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

It seems you're just desperate to find some passage that seems to teach loss of salvation. This passage is about unbelievers, you know, the "unbelieving". And John gave a few added adjectives regarding unbelievers.

Here's the fact: NO passage teaches loss of salvation, or that would demand that Jesus' statement about CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life is WRONG.

Is that your platform? Your agenda? To show that Jesus made a claim that was untrue??

Sure seems that way to me.

All you're proving is that you don't believe John 10:28 to be true. That there are some recipients of eternal life who WILL perish.

All in spite of the FACT that Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Your view is in direct opposition to the Savior's claim.

Nope, you just deny the words of the father there who said he was "DEAD" and "LOST" when he was out of the house.

How in the world can it be "denial" when I've explained that what was dead and lost was fellowship? Please explain.

Rather, the denial is on you for ignoring my explanation. Why do you DENY that fellowship was the issue here?

The prodigal BEGAN as a son, remained as a son, and ended the parable as a son.

How can that be loss of salvation? It doesn't make any sense.

The ONLY THING that was lost was fellowship. It died when he left.

How can you or anyone else NOT see the obvious here?

Do you not understand that fellowship defines the condition of the relationship?

Consider a married couple. A spouse (man or woman) gets angry with the other and stomps out of the house and spends time with someone of the opposite gender.

Now, is there fellowship in that marriage at that time? Of course not. There is NO fellowship (intimacy). It's gone. It's dead. It's lost.

However, when the spouse comes back, in a state of confession and repentance, and the other spouse is full of grace, has fellowship returned? Of course it has.

That is the parable of the prodigal.

No he was dead and lost as the father said.

He was speaking of fellowship that had been lost, and died.

And though humans are all Gods offspring (Acts 17 KJV) many will end up in hell. All we like sheep have gone astray, but many of those will still end up in hell.

The Bible tells us who will end up in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15. Everyone who never received the free gift of eternal life. That's WHY their names are NOT in the book of life.

And don't forget (or just believe) what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: they shall NEVER PERISH. And He actually meant it. Every word of it.

You simply fight against the clear text here when the father said he was dead and is alive again and lost and then found.

lol. What a joke. You're fighting against the clear text of John 10:28 and what Jesus taught about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

I'm not fighting any text. I have explained it to you, which does NOT contradict any other Scripture. You, otoh, have a view of the prodigal that directly contradicts what Jesus said in John 10:28.

He was only alive when the father brought him back in.

Really? The Bible says he was hungry, he was sitting in a pig sty, etc. How is that dead? I know you believe 'dead' there refers to spiritual death, but the parable is about a HUMAN story, not a spiritual one.

And in that human story, fellowship between father and son was broken, dead, and lost, all doe to a very stupid son. But fellowship was restored when the son "came to his senses", repented of his actions, and confessed his sins to his father.

Now, go ahead and explain how anything I've said about the prodigal can't be right.

"6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."(1 John 1:6,7 KJV)

This "fellowship" or communion, partnership and sharer participant with God is salvation.

Well, that's where you're wrong. Salvation is relationship. Fellowship is the quality of that relationship. Just as the parable of the prodigal shows.

And I gave an example of marriage. Marriages have their ups and downs. All of them. So no marriage has consistent fellowship. Some marriages have more fellowship (intimacy) than others, and some have no fellowship at all, and sooner or later, fall apart.

Your attempt to try and escape the consequence of the scriptures by using the word "fellowship" is not right.

Your mere opinion is not enough. Prove that it's "not right".

To have fellowship with God is to walk with God and share in the life in God as we walk in His light.

I agree. And believers don't always do this. Maybe you're stuck in "Pollyanna land" or something. Why did Paul command believers to STOP grieving (Eph 4:30) and STOP quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Holy Spirit, IF salvation was fellowship?

Clearly, you don't understand the difference between relationship and fellowship.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yes, just as the prodigal departed from his father. Yet, during the entire time, he REMAINED the son and his father remained his father. Please don't miss this point.

you seemed to ignore this part I showed

This story is obviously speaking of a son who went out of the house was dead and lost came to himself and repented and went back home in faith. Yes he was a lost and dead son (spiritually is the figure). But there are also fallen ANGELS we know in scripture who were once with the father and abode in the truth and then they went out and abode not in the truth any more and will end up in the lake of fire. Does that make them any less evil angels, or fallen angels? If God spared not the "angels that sinned", doesn't this show that they can still be referred to as an angel, or in this case a son and still be dead and lost and on their way to the lake of fire?"

This does not support the idea of losing salvation. It's all about fellowship with Christ (partakers).

I clearly showed you that "fellowship" is walking in the light of salvation. If a person walks in the light then hates his brother and walks in that darkness he lies if he says he is in salvation ( fellowship with God and partaking and sharing partnership with God and knowing God), and he no longer has "eternal life abiding IN him as 1 John 3:15 says.

But if he comes back to God through confession of sin and repentance and faith then and only then does he have fellowship with God in the light of salvation and then and only then does the blood of Christ cleanseth him from all sin. as 1 John says.

btw, consider v.19. Did Moses himself get to enter the land? No. Why not? The verse says why he didn't. "because of unbelief".

It doesn't specifically say unbelief connected to Moss. It speaks of these men in context

"17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?"

Moses struck the rock and was disobedient. But the outward type of coming into the new land from the old is a type of the law (Moses as that type) as a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (Joshua as a type of Christ) and then Joshua (a type of Jesus) goes into the new land (into our hearts) and gives life and cleanseth the land (our hearts) from all the sin and enemies in the land. This happened as they went through the waters of Jordan ( which mean place of death and descending) and this is a type of the baptism into Christ. We see Jesus also went through the waters into the new land typically after wandering 40 days in the wilderness. Just like God's people wanders 40 years in the wilderness before coming to the river of Jordan and the new land.

Moses is a type. This story does not relate to Moses salvation in the heart. God can judge his servants but Moses had faith. He is mentioned in the faith chapter

Now your challenge is to prove that "forsake you" here means loss of salvation.

The text I showed shows that God is with you whole you be with him. This is the meaning. If we abide by faith in Christ God will never leave but if we have an evil heart of unbelief he will leave and forsake.

the word "forsake" there means "to leave" .If God leaves us we can do nothing. You simply don';t like that verse and try to explain it away because it clearly sows that we leave and forsake first, not God. Jesus will never leave or forsake us as we abide in him and do not forsake him.

It seems you're just desperate to find some passage that seems to teach loss of salvation.

There are so many passages that show a person can loose his salvation it is a big discussion I will post some Lord willing soon I have to step out for a bit

But you simply deny the Judas discussion and many verses i showed from Matthew 10 where Jesus called "His" 12 apostles and gave them all power ( judas included) and ordained the 12 and sent the 12 forth as sheep and he sent them forth to the lost sheep.

there is no way you can escape this truth from scripture in 30 or more years I have not heard anyone be able to resist the weight of this section. Some have tried, but usually they run as you do to another scripture John 10 which they think refutes Matthew 10. But I can answer and have answered your John 10 verse. I will try more further later. But you must harmonzie Matthew 10 with other scriptures. We cannot take one verse and ignore a whole chapter and choose one over the other. John 10 must come in line with Matthew 10 I can harmonize them I hope you can try.

Jesus clearly called Judas a sheep and sent him forth and ordained him and have him power to cast out devils and Judas clearly belonged to the father before Jesus met them and Judas had the spirit of the Father working in him when needed as Matthew 10 shows. etc etc

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Yes, just as the prodigal departed from his father. Yet, during the entire time, he REMAINED the son and his father remained his father. Please don't miss this point."

you seemed to ignore this part I showed

My response was IN response to what you said. And your understanding doesn't pass the smell test. You've mixed much more in the parable than is warranted.

Do you understand what a parable is? It's a HUMAN story with a moral. Not a spiritual story with eternal parallels.

This story is obviously speaking of a son who went out of the house was dead and lost came to himself and repented and went back home in faith. Yes he was a lost and dead son (spiritually is the figure). But there are also fallen ANGELS we know in scripture who were once with the father and abode in the truth and then they went out and abode not in the truth any more and will end up in the lake of fire. Does that make them any less evil angels, or fallen angels? If God spared not the "angels that sinned", doesn't this show that they can still be referred to as an angel, or in this case a son and still be dead and lost and on their way to the lake of fire?"

What is obvious is that the prodigal was physically ALIVE throughout the parable, and remained a son throughout the parable. Why ignore this?

I clearly showed you that "fellowship" is walking in the light of salvation.

No, you only claimed that. You showed nothing about the "light of salvation".

I explained the difference between relationship and fellowship, but it seems you're just resisting the fact.

If a person walks in the light then hates his brother and walks in that darkness he lies if he says he is in salvation ( fellowship with God and partaking and sharing partnership with God and knowing God), and he no longer has "eternal life abiding IN him as 1 John 3:15 says.

Again, you've failed to show that salvation is "fellowship with God and partaking and sharing partnership with God and knowing God".

For what reason is there to deny that fellowship speaks to the quality of a relationship?

I've given 2 human examples; parent and child and marriage. Both are relationships, and loss of fellowship can occur in both examples, while the relationship remains.

It doesn't specifically say unbelief connected to Moss. It speaks of these men in context

You keep missing the point. Heb 3:19 speaks of unbelief as the reason the first generation didn't enter the land. I showed from Scripture WHY Moses didn't enter the land, which was for the SAME REASON. I gave 3 verses to prove that.

"17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?"

God did allow Moses to see the land, high up on a mountain. But he didn't enter the land for the SAME REASON as the rest of the first generation, except Caleb and Joshua.

Moses struck the rock and was disobedient. But the outward type of coming into the new land from the old is a type of the law (Moses as that type) as a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ (Joshua as a type of Christ) and then Joshua (a type of Jesus) goes into the new land (into our hearts) and gives life and cleanseth the land (our hearts) from all the sin and enemies in the land.

This is quite fanciful.

Moses is a type.

Says who? Moses was a person.

There are so many passages that show a person can loose his salvation it is a big discussion I will post some Lord willing soon I have to step out for a bit

And just as soon as you do post them, I will point out that NONE of them say anything about losing salvation.

So, let's just save some time, and limit your posting to only those that actually and plainly SAY that salvation can be lost. (that'll save a bunch of time, as there aren't any)

But you simply deny the Judas discussion and many verses i showed from Matthew 10 where Jesus called "His" 12 apostles and gave them all power ( judas included) and ordained the 12 and sent the 12 forth as sheep and he sent them forth to the lost sheep.

I haven't denied any of that. But giving him power does NOT mean he was a believer. You're simply assuming way too much.

there is no way you can escape this truth from scripture in 30 or more years I have not heard anyone be able to resist the weight of this section. Some have tried, but usually they run as you do to another scripture John 10 which they think refutes Matthew 10.

So, here we see that you think that Matt 10 somehow refutes John 10:28. Is that it?

Actually, given what Jesus said so clearly in John 10:28, it should be quite obvious that Matt 10 can't be about loss of salvation.

Do you believe that Jesus was conflicted in His thinking?

But I can answer and have answered your John 10 verse.

No you haven't.

I will try more further later. But you must harmonzie Matthew 10 with other scriptures.

I HAVE shown a clear and straightforward verse by Jesus on eternal security. And you have done what you accused me of doing: "running to another verse".

We cannot take one verse and ignore a whole chapter and choose one over the other.

Then show HOW anything in ch 10 makes what Jesus said to NOT be about eternal security.

There's NO OTHER way to understand what Jesus said about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in Jn 10:28.

John 10 must come in line with Matthew 10 I can harmonize them I hope you can try.

Actually, just the opposite. Jn 10:28 is MUCH CLEARER as a statement about the issue of one's security.

Jesus clearly called Judas a sheep and sent him forth and ordained him and have him power to cast out devils and Judas clearly belonged to the father before Jesus met them and Judas had the spirit of the Father working in him when needed as Matthew 10 shows. etc etc

If you believe all this, then you cannot believe the plain words of Jesus in Jn 10:28.

It's that simple.

 

[EmSw]

I said:
"Can you change your birth parents? No. No different in the spiritual sense either."

Then you are still a child of the devil. How did you change into a son of God?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then you are still a child of the devil. How did you change into a son of God?

By doing what the Bible says.

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

Your comment only reveals the depth of your biblical ignorance.

I said:
"Can you change your birth parents? No. No different in the spiritual sense either."

So, why do you think the devil birthed anyone? What evidence can you provide to support this nutty idea?

In fact, the Bible speaks of our being born again by the Holy Spirit.

Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Through faith in Jesus Christ, the believer becomes a child of God. This is a spiritual birth. This spiritual birth cannot be changed any more than our physical birth.

That was my point. Which you seem to fail to grasp at all.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you believe all this, then you cannot believe the plain words of Jesus in Jn 10:28.

It's that simple.

I said

"Jesus clearly called Judas a sheep and sent him forth and ordained him and have him power to cast out devils and Judas clearly belonged to the father before Jesus met them and Judas had the spirit of the Father working in him when needed as Matthew 10 shows. etc etc"

and you said

"If you believe all this, then you cannot believe the plain words of Jesus in Jn 10:28."

Here you show that you take one scripture and set it against another, this is not the right way to understand scripture.

Those things I pointed out about Judas are true from the text.

Also when Jesus said My sheep hear my voice. The apostles were already were his sheep before he met them in person. Jesus said they belonged to the father. So somewhere along the line of their life they had top repent and have a broken spirit and a humble heart and look to God's righteousness and have faith in Him and they most likely were among the ones that looked for the messiah. So when Jesus called them, they heard his voice in their hearts as well as in person. They knew him inwardly already. So Jesus simply went about and called those for ministry among the apostles to follow him and they did. He said to Matthew follow me and immediately he followed him. This is because he was one of Jesus sheep already in is heart and we could say an OT saint.

Today if you hear his voice harden not your hearts. This hearing of His voice comes in the heart as well as in person when they heard and saw Jesus. But a person can harden their heart even (as in Judas case) he did.

It is with the heart man beleiveth unto righteousness. Judas as well as the other 11 were Jesus sheep and so they at that time had eternal life because they heard his word in their hearts and Jesus gave his sheep eternal life. That eternal life is Jesus Christ himself in them. Jesus said every branch IN ME (John 15.

Jesus shows clearly that a branch can be in him and he in them and this is if they continue in His word and if they abide ( remain, continue or dwell )with him. If they abide not then they are cast forth as a branch

so your main verse John 10:28 does not strengthen your case.

I can get into John 10:28 in context more if you want. If you read the chapter you will see that when a person believes they are the sheep, some believed not and so were not his sheep. A person could either already be a sheep by repentance and faith or they could repent and after hearing Jesus preach and be converted then. Jesus even said to them that they should believe for the works sake that he did. he called them to believe as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said

"Jesus clearly called Judas a sheep and sent him forth and ordained him and have him power to cast out devils and Judas clearly belonged to the father before Jesus met them and Judas had the spirit of the Father working in him when needed as Matthew 10 shows. etc etc"

and you said

"If you believe all this, then you cannot believe the plain words of Jesus in Jn 10:28."

Here you show that you take one scripture and set it against another, this is not the right way to understand scripture.

Let's back up a sec. I've read the entire chapter of Matt 10. I didn't see anywhere Jesus calling Judas a sheep.

This is what I did find, however:
v.6 - Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Also, Jesus did tell the 12 to be like snakes and doves. v.16

What translation are you reading from?

Those things I pointed out about Judas are true from the text.

Uh, what things? I know what the Bible says about him; he was a thief and a betrayer. What else?

Also when Jesus said My sheep hear my voice. The apostles were already were his sheep before he met them in person. Jesus said they belonged to the father.

Where do you read that the 12 were "His sheep" before He met them?

So somewhere along the line of their life they had top repent and have a broken spirit and a humble heart and look to God's righteousness and have faith in Him and they most likely were among the ones that looked for the messiah. So when Jesus called them, they heard his voice in their hearts as well as in person. They knew him inwardly already. So Jesus simply went about and called those for ministry among the apostles to follow him and they did.

There's quite a bit of assumption going on here.

In John 6, a number of His followers quit following (v.66) So Jesus asks His disciples if they wanted to leave as well. v.67. Peter answered the question:
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

And this was Jesus' response to Peter's answer:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, we see that Jesus actually contradicted Peter's answer. Though Peter thought that Judas was among the 11 who believed that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus had to correct his error. Jesus directly notes that one of the chosen "is a devil". Not hardly a description of a believer in the Christ.

And John adds an explanation of who exactly Jesus was referring to in v.71.

Now, let's look at v.64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Those who don't see any connection between v.64 and v.71 simply don't want to see it.

In v.64 Jesus notes that not all of His disciples were believers. And John adds "who would betray Him" to unbelievers.

Therefore, it should be clear that Judas never believed.

so your main verse John 10:28 does not strengthen your case.

Another erroneous assumption. The verse is quite clear as being a statement of CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

No one has yet shown otherwise.

I can get into John 10:28 in context more if you want.

I don't need context. You need to "explain away" the clear and obvious CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life that Jesus taught.

If you read the chapter you will see that when a person believes they are the sheep, some believed not and so were not his sheep.

Another error.

In ch 10, Jesus spoke of "My sheep", "other sheep of Mine", those "not of My sheep", and THE sheep. And "the sheep" is mentioned 8 times.

The phrases "My sheep" and "other sheep of Mine" obviously refer to believers, and they do belong to Him. The phrase "not of My sheep" obviously refers to unbelievers.

Finally, THE sheep obviously refers to everyone. And Jesus clearly stated that He would die for THE sheep. (are the Calvinists paying attention here?)

If Jesus had died only for believers, He would have said so. But He didn't say He would die for His sheep. He said He would die for THE sheep.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Let's back up a sec.

Yes it might also be good to re read my original post number 1 about Judas and the details I posted. I cover many of these things already.

I've read the entire chapter of Matt 10. I didn't see anywhere Jesus calling Judas a sheep.

2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;

“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples” Matthew 10:1

Notice, that Jesus didn't call "his" eleven and one devil. No they were his twelve (Judas included) there is no way to hide from this fact to the unbiased reader. Also Jesus was not ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, (Judas was included included) there is no way out of the clarity of this fact from the text.,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,

“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” Matthew 10:5 KJV

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14 KJV (all 12 again ordained and sent forth not just 11)

Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.

Judas also was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.

“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17 KJV

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.

and here is the point in question still in context to the entire chapter of Judas being one of Jesus apostles sent forth and ordained and given power to cast out devils and heal

7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, [all 12 Judas included] and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep [still sepaking to all 12 Judas included] in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16 KJV

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows as clear as any text that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him and gives them eternal life (which is him in their hearts). Judas was as a sheep amidst wolves, showing that Judas wasn't a wolf then.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28 KJV

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this. But even though Judas did believe at one time he later "betrayed" Jesus. To betray is to believe once and have the trust of Jesus and then go against that trust. You cannot betray that trust unless you once had it. Jesus also does not trust devils or fallen men

So clearly Jesus called Judas one of his sheep sent to the lost sheep. .

What translation are you reading from?

The King James Bible. I only use that one. And yes that's a 45 hour talk so maybe for another time.

Uh, what things? I know what the Bible says about him; he was a thief and a betrayer. What else?

re read my first post that would help here. But these things

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus (John 17:6 KJV)
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning ( Matthew 10:1-)
3. Judas was an apostle ( Matthew 10)
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep (Matthew 10)
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as Jesus said) (Matthew 10)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give (Matthew 10)
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted (Psalm 41:9, John 13:8 KJV)
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed (Matthew 10 KJV
9. Judas was written in the book of life once (Psalms 69:25,28 KJV)
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out (Psalm 69 with Acts 1:16-20, 25 KJV)

Where do you read that the 12 were "His sheep" before He met them?

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6

There's quite a bit of assumption going on here.

No its not Jesus said he that is of God heareth God's words. They were already in many cases OT saints who had repented and believed. They had a broken spirit and a humble and contrite heart and looked for God and His righteousness etc.

In John 6, a number of His followers quit following (v.66) So Jesus asks His disciples if they wanted to leave as well. v.67. Peter answered the question:
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

And this was Jesus' response to Peter's answer:
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

So, we see that Jesus actually contradicted Peter's answer. Though Peter thought that Judas was among the 11 who believed that Jesus was the Christ, Jesus had to correct his error. Jesus directly notes that one of the chosen "is a devil". Not hardly a description of a believer in the Christ.

No this he spoke of Judas who "SHOULD" (future tense) betray him. I believe this was all taking place in Jerusalem and Judas had been in ministry for a long time before this. And so Matthew 10 shows Judas first empowerment for ministry from Jesus and John 17:6 shows his belonging to the Father even before he was given to Jesus. And So later we see that "then Satan entered into him". Then, later Judas betrayed Jesus. To betray is to have the trust of someone and go against that trust.

Even if we were to say that Judas was a devil at that time. He wasn't always a devil as some try to say, nor was he "always" a thief. I have heard some try to say when teaching the heresy of OSAS that Judas was "Always" a devil and "ALWAYS" a thief. They add the word "always" to try and make their case stronger. But they wrest the scripture to fit their bias.This is dangerous.

Jesus also showed the exact moment when he considered Judas to have betrayed him and it wasn't in John 6 . Jesus said

"47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?"(Luke 22:47,48 KJV)

Now, let's look at v.64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Here we see that he makes a distinction between those that believed not, (or in this case it might have been some who had the seed fall on the rocks and they were saved for a while but in the time of temptation fall away) and between those who "betray" him. He does not say that believing not and betraying him are the exact thing. To betray means you had to once believe and have the trust of someone and then go against that belief and trust. As Judas did.

But Again he spoke of Judas also and what "should" happen. Jesus may have been speaking prophetically there as he did in other places. We see God also speaking of things in the future as if they are a reality in Abraham, God said he has made him the father of many nations ( but those nations had not yet come.

Jesus also said to the 12

"67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" (John 6:67 KJV) showing the possibility of doing such a thing. Jesus gave them a choice.

I don't need context.

But context does help. If you rip a part of a verse for example out of a text you need to know what the context was and not try to make that stand alone if it doesn't.

For example if I take this scripture

Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."

Now, what if a person started to teach with this verse ripped out of its context that we can talk to foxes and Jesus told us to do so?

Would that make sense?. But a person might say "I don't need context".

You need to "explain away" the clear and obvious CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life that Jesus taught.

No we need to explain what eternal life is and what abiding in Christ means and abiding not. We also need to explain he that endureth to the end the same shall be saved and that if we have an evil heart of unbelief we can depart from the living God and not be partakers of Christ.

Finally, THE sheep obviously refers to everyone. And Jesus clearly stated that He would die for THE sheep. (are the Calvinists paying attention here?)

Yes "all we like sheep have gone astray". If you interpret that to the Jews only then all the Jews were like sheep. And if you interpret that to the whole world then all those n the world are like sheep that have gone astray. Either way there are found and lost sheep.

The prodigal was found in the house and lost out of it. He was alive in the house and dead out of it and alive again when he came back into it.

If you don't see this parable as a deep spiritual truth of How the Father God seeks the lost then I don;t know what to say. That parable is actually three parables. The Father seeking the lost, the Son (the good shepherd) seeking the lost and the woman (the Holy Ghost seeking the lost) the tri Unity or trinity is hinted to here. But these three parables are one parable as the text says. These three are one.