Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

FreeGrace2

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Knowing about a suffering Messiah is not the same as personally feeling responsible for His torture, murder and humiliation, since he has not yet gone through that yet.
This sounds as though you haven't yet read Isa 53. It's all there.

4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Could't be any more clear.

You cannot be crucified with Christ if Messiah has not been crucified yet.
Anyone who believes that the Messiah (Christ) died for their sin will be saved.

1 Cor 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

His death on our behalf is of "first importance". I believe that.
 
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Dan the deacon

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This sounds as though you haven't yet read Isa 53. It's all there.

4 Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Could't be any more clear.


Anyone who believes that the Messiah (Christ) died for their sin will be saved.

1 Cor 15:3 - For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

His death on our behalf is of "first importance". I believe that.
He is not looking for such but trying to prove his odd view. He almost has to be of the SDA or a simular group.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Furthermore Mark 3 does not clearly in ALL VERSIONS call those 12 whom HE appointed "apostles"

Do you use even one of these versions when you study the WHOLE of the WORD of GOD

Let your yes be yes and your no be no
in Matthew 10 we read clearly

"Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him."

As clear as day to the un-biased reader.

and we read

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."(Matthew 10:6-15 KJV)
 
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LoveofTruth

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John 13 clearly states that JUDAS was not clean

And if you had understood if THE WORD does not wash us we have no part with HIM you would have understood what HE washes and makes clean before GOD is clean

Regardless of man's approval or disapproval
John speaks alot of the end of Judas ministry near the end when Christ was about to die. Matthew shows the beginning of Judas ministry. Judas fell by transgression as Acts 1 says. How does a person fall if they were always fallen?
 
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Dan the deacon

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Judas NEVER was baptized he NEVER received the HOLY SPIRIT he was NEVER washed

Do not call clean what GOD has already from the beginning declared unclean. Judas was declared UNCLEAN
This is what I disagree with;

That Judas was a true apostle sent in the POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT to testify as HIS WITNESSES to the TRUTH of THE RISEN LORD
I'd also have to disagree with that statement
Yes Judas was an apostle. He however was not saved nor were the other eleven while Judas was alive.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I'd also have to disagree with that statement
Yes Judas was an apostle. He however was not saved nor were the other eleven while Judas was alive.
Disagree.

John 13 clarifies Jesus' opinion of all 12 disciples during the Last Supper.

2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.

This is the Last Supper.

10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

In v.10, Jesus tells Peter that "you are clean", meaning saved, and then added "though not every one of you".

V.11 clarifies what He meant by the one who was going to betray Him wasn't clean (saved).

That leaves 11 that were saved at that moment.

John 15
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Again, Jesus affirms the saved state of the 11 disciples.
 
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Dan the deacon

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Disagree.

John 13 clarifies Jesus' opinion of all 12 disciples during the Last Supper.

2 The evening meal was in progress, and the devil had already prompted Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.

This is the Last Supper.

10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

In v.10, Jesus tells Peter that "you are clean", meaning saved, and then added "though not every one of you".

V.11 clarifies what He meant by the one who was going to betray Him wasn't clean (saved).

That leaves 11 that were saved at that moment.

John 15
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

Again, Jesus affirms the saved state of the 11 disciples.
So you think they 're saved by some other means than the rest of us?
I agree at the moment Jesus spoke those words they were doing well but not saved. Jesus had not yet paid the atonement. Before Jesus died Peter denied Christ. He wasn't saved until He repented of that.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I'd also have to disagree with that statement
Yes Judas was an apostle. He however was not saved nor were the other eleven while Judas was alive.
Yes Judas was oncecsavedcas the other 11 were and they were born again before the cross as scripture teaches. They also were all called sheep sent to the lost sheep

Here are just a few scriptures of the massive amounts that can be shown to prove they were saved and born again before (though not without in time) the cross.

These are before the cross

“ John 17 - 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.... 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

None of them is lost and so they have salvation

And

John 10 - 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

And all the twelve were sent as sheep

Also read Hebrews 11 and notice that they all had faith. Christ dwells in the heart by faith. They didn’t have the baptism with the Holy Ghost but they had Christ in them by faith they were born again by the word of God .
 
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LoveofTruth

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So you think they 're saved by some other means than the rest of us?
I agree at the moment Jesus spoke those words they were doing well but not saved. Jesus had not yet paid the atonement. Before Jesus died Peter denied Christ. He wasn't saved until He repented of that.
John 5 - 24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

Notice the present tense “hath” and “is passed”
 
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FreeGrace2

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So you think they 're saved by some other means than the rest of us?
They were all clean. That means saved, vs unclean, which means unsaved

And everyone is saved the exact same way: believing that Jesus is the Messiah and died for our sins.

I agree at the moment Jesus spoke those words they were doing well but not saved.
I disagree with this statement.

Jesus had not yet paid the atonement.
This would conclude that no one before His death could be saved. That would include Moses, Abraham, etc. That's silly.

Before Jesus died Peter denied Christ. He wasn't saved until He repented of that.
No. At the Last Supper, Jesus pronounced him saved.
 
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Dan the deacon

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Yes Judas was oncecsavedcas the other 11 were and they were born again before the cross as scripture teaches. They also were all called sheep sent to the lost sheep

Here are just a few scriptures of the massive amounts that can be shown to prove they were saved and born again before (though not without in time) the cross.

These are before the cross

“ John 17 - 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.... 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

None of them is lost and so they have salvation

And

John 10 - 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

And all the twelve were sent as sheep

Also read Hebrews 11 and notice that they all had faith. Christ dwells in the heart by faith. They didn’t have the baptism with the Holy Ghost but they had Christ in them by faith they were born again by the word of God .
So in your belief, the sacrifice made on the cross was nothing to the apostles. Every other New needed a sacrifice just to appease God for a while. But these apostles didn't because they were sinless. Hmmmm, and then Peter denied Him. I guess that sin didn't count. So you say Jesus did not die for the appostles....Just for all other men. Give me a break. Sin has always required p
They were all clean. That means saved, vs unclean, which means unsaved

And everyone is saved the exact same way: believing that Jesus is the Messiah and died for our sins.


I disagree with this statement.


This would conclude that no one before His death could be saved. That would include Moses, Abraham, etc. That's silly.


No. At the Last Supper, Jesus pronounced him saved.
So Jesus went onto Sheol for no reason? Sorry but you are wrong or the Father has favorites. No man was saved until Jesus paid the price for mans sin. To say otherwise is not a Christian teaching. Jesus died for our (Every man's)sins not excluding anyone.
 
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Dan the deacon

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Yes Judas was oncecsavedcas the other 11 were and they were born again before the cross as scripture teaches. They also were all called sheep sent to the lost sheep

Here are just a few scriptures of the massive amounts that can be shown to prove they were saved and born again before (though not without in time) the cross.

These are before the cross

“ John 17 - 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.... 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

None of them is lost and so they have salvation

And

John 10 - 27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

And all the twelve were sent as sheep

Also read Hebrews 11 and notice that they all had faith. Christ dwells in the heart by faith. They didn’t have the baptism with the Holy Ghost but they had Christ in them by faith they were born again by the word of God .
So in your belief, the sacrifice made on the cross was nothing to the apostles. Every other New needed a sacrifice just to appease God for a while. But these apostles didn't because they were sinless. Hmmmm, and then Peter denied Him. I guess that sin didn't count. So you say Jesus did not die for the appostles....Just for all other men. Give me a break. Sin has always required p
They were all clean. That means saved, vs unclean, which means unsaved

And everyone is saved the exact same way: believing that Jesus is the Messiah and died for our sins.


I disagree with this statement.


This would conclude that no one before His death could be saved. That would include Moses, Abraham, etc. That's silly.


No. At the Last Supper, Jesus pronounced him saved.
So Jesus went onto Sheol for no reason? Sorry but you are wrong or the Father has favorites. No man was saved until Jesus paid the price for mans sin. To say otherwise is not a Christian teaching. Jesus died for our (Every man's)sins not excluding anyone. This is basic Christian doctrine. What you are spreading is nothing close to truth. Jesus died on the cross for mankind
Not just some men but for all who are saved.
 
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LoveofTruth

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So in your belief, the sacrifice made on the cross was nothing to the apostles. Every other New needed a sacrifice just to appease God for a while. But these apostles didn't because they were sinless. Hmmmm, and then Peter denied Him. I guess that sin didn't count. So you say Jesus did not die for the appostles....Just for all other men. Give me a break. Sin has always required p
Christ did die for the apostles and for all the Old testament "saints". By his death in time he was able in the past to give them the free gift. This free gift came upon all men unto the justification of life. That which may be known of God is manifest in them. Christ is the seed , the word sown in the heart, the true Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Even the gentiles which have not the law who do by "nature" the things contained in the law are a law unto themselves, which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness. in the day when God shall judge the "secrets" of men by Jesus Christ according to the gospel.

We read in Acts 17 when Paul was speaking of the "unknown God" that in every nation and blood of the earth and where all men are , they have been put there that they should seek the Lord and feel after him and find him.

Christ Jesus is the true Light that lights them and in their hearts God calls. This is where the seed or word is sown. This word sown is Christ and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus Christ is able to reach even those in the most remote parts of the world who may have little understanding of many things we as believers do. But the Holy Ghost is only given in the name of Jesus Christ as i understand. They can have the spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the father but not the Holy Ghost power unless they come through the name of Jesus Christ.

Anyway, the salvation of the unevangelized is a long talk. read Romans 1, 10, Acts 10 Acts 17, John 1:9, Romans 1;18,19, Romans 2:14,15, Romans 5, etc etc.
 
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