Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
I hope you are not applying this to me, take heed it will fall on your head if you do. I fear God and depart from evil. The problem is that many who hear the things I share with them do not depart from the evil they are in and the quenching of the spirit by a one man dominant ministry over them. John calls Diotrephese evil in 3rd John 9,10, and he loved the pre eminence among them and would not receive the brothers and kicked them out of the church. Those who follow such a way are the evil ones, not what i say about body ministry and elders plural in every church.
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
I do not seek my own way or will. But God works in me to will and to do, and to make me perfect unto every good work. The ones who set up their religious forms and rituals and commandments of men are the ones who do things right in their own eyes. They do not obey the commandments of the Lord for this order and so Paul says they are "ignorant" and should not be received.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
This is true, follow God's ways not mans, or mans traditions that make the word of God of no effect as many do today. Read Colossians 2:8 and beware.
1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
Yes, this is how home grown elders are known and recognized. As they are allowed to freely minister like everyone else. The brothers and sisters will know them in their ministry and gifts. They will hear the consistent words from a mature brother and be fed. But today the body does not do this. Instead they hire a superstar from a school, who may or may not have been among them all along and tested as 1 timothy says to do. They may be the ones who quench the spirit in others and have dominion over all in supreme control and false authority.
Matthew 18:15-20 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Another good verse. But this is not done in most assemblies. Here we see consensus decision making. The entire church makes decisions, not just one pastor or a few elders. The whole church can hear and judge and speak and minister to each other. This is unlike many assemblies today who have one man make all the decisions and who has control of all the activities of the assembly. They even write such a control in their man made by laws and constitutions.
1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Yes and them that sin rebuke before all. Paul had to rebuke Peter before all as soon as he saw they they walked not uprightly in the truth. the very truth of the gospel was at stake.
I am not rebuking elders for specific sin. i am rebuking the very form and man made order that fights against the commands of God and body ministry and exalts a man over all. Paul rebuked such leaders and wrote about it as well
"12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 16 I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face."( 2 Corinthians 11;12-20 KJV)
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
You misunderstand this verse. The word "
obey" is not the same word as Children obey your parents. It ,means to be convinced by or to persuade. The word "submit" is also different it means to yield as in combatants. The idea here is that the overseers had the rule ( which is to say they have spoken the word of God
vs 7 and have the word , they are ministers of the spirit in the word. This is the authority that all should be convinced by and persuaded by and yield to. Paul says similar in Titus
"9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."(Titus 1:9 KJV)
You have accused elders of the church openly without going to them.
I have not accused anyone personally in here. I have simply talked about a wrong order and unbiblical one man pastor role as it is set up today that fights against the body ministry and quenches the spirit in the gatherings. Even if these men are godly men and humble in such a role they will hinder many times the body. Even if they have the best messages that human ingenuity can muster. Or even in those rare cases where they are spirit led and speak from heaven.
I have on the other hand spoken to many so called "pastors" and elders over the years.
There is no pastors present to defend themselves.
I am not talking about any specific pastor so called. I am talking about the modern role and function as we see it today. This is not a personal issue with any man.
You gossip about their actions, as if you, yourself dictates if the Holy Spirit has called them to this office.
No I talk about the general knowledge of how men go to a bible school and pay for a few courses and take test and then they are pastors. I show this to be unbiblical and that God calls men to be pastor gifts and apostles and prophets etc , not man. You call this gossip? this is not right. I am speaking of a general role seen to day, not any specific man.
You are correct in your own eyes in spite of scripture saying that their are people of this office.
I am correct as I walk in the word and believe the scriptures that command body ministry. And every believer has an "office" the word means function, practice work. Not as some make it mean today. And all have an office
" 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:..." (Romans 12:4-7 KJV)
I'm not one who is worshipping pastors as kings.
I never said anything about "worshipping"them.
They are elders of the church who have had training in the word and are apt to teach and shepherd the flock. They are and will be accountable for their own actions to the Lord. You have no forgiveness in the matter. If you have problems with a pastor, go to them directly as the Bible instructs.
I know every man will be accountable for what they say and do.But I am not speaking of particular men in here. And I have gone to many of them, as the Lord leads.
To confront your pastor of sin is a very serious charge and should be taken extremely seriously.
The expression "your pastor". As if somehow this one man is over all and has supreme control and authority over all the church and all its activities (because the man made constitutions set him up this way) is false.
John says some troubling words for many when certain men seduced them and acted as if they needed them so much
"26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."9 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)
Notice we have no need that any man should teach us. Believers listen to the new man in Christ and as Christ the head of that new man ministers and effectually works in the body and each part functions in their place. Some will function as elders and be mature in the word and able to rightly divide it others are babe and unskillful for a time in the word.
John MacArthur "There are always people eager to falsely accuse a man of God. They may do so because they resent his calling, reject his teaching, resist biblical authority, resent virtue, or are jealous of the Lord’s blessing on his life. Ultimately, however, they demonstrate by making such accusations that they have become messengers of Satan. Such false accusations are one of his most dangerous weapons. Joseph, Moses, David, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, and our Lord Jesus Christ all suffered from false accusations."
But what if they accuse a man of God and they do so rightly with scripture. Then the man resist because of pride and a false authority he believes he has over others. Jesus, Paul and John and Peter warn of this.
Also the expression "biblical authority is also a greatly misunderstood things and not the way many see it today. That is another long talk.
And John Mcarthur does not believe in the gift for today or apostles and prophets as I understand. So he and i would have issues immediately. I would stand with scripture not sure where he would have a leg to stand on in this instance.
My pastor teaches the Word of God.
Why stress only the one gift. God gave apostles prophets, evangelist and teachers also.
In fact Paul says in the church there are things set a certain way
"28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,..."(1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV)
Do you see pastors there? Do you see the pastor as the first in function? Or second or third?
Not on here like some hooligan gossiping behind people's backs
You are in error here the way you speak about me. I do this openly not behind people backs. Try to get John Mcarthur or any other so called "pastors" to come in here and talk with me. I welcome it. I am not gossiping about any personality. I speak in general of the modern role of pastor and the biblical order.
These accusations have not been in the spirit of love, fellowship, brotherhood, or forgiveness.
Remove the mote from your own eye and rebuke the dark spirit that has accompanied your speech.
Love in Christ.
Now you know the heart of a man? I seek true unity in the body where we all speak the same things and have the same mind and the same judgement and in the unity if the Spirit in the bond of peace. I seek to be able to wait on the Lord with all my brothers and sisters and not to be hindered by the one man over all called the pastor who tries to control and direct how we should function. Even when we are functioning as God commands us.
I can simply echo Paul's similar words when he had to rebuke false ministers and exalted men he said
"11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth."( 2 Cor 11"11 KJV)
and
2 Corinthians 12:15
"And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved."