The Pastor King (New)

[2Timothy2:15]

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
...ἦτε γὰρ ὡς πρόβατα πλανώμενα ἀλλ᾽ ἐπεστράφητε νῦν ἐπὶ τὸν ποιμένα καὶ ἐπίσκοπον τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν... (1Pet. 2:25)

This is a reference to Jesus not to a man who calls himself pastor.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Note "elders" is plural, not singular as in this is a group of mature Christians who do this as a group, not a single man at the top.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

This is a reference to Jesus not to a man who calls himself pastor.

Addressed that already. Respond to the argument or don't respond at all.

Note "elders" is plural, not singular as in this is a group of mature Christians who do this as a group, not a single man at the top.

Not relevant to the discourse. You don't have to refute every single point in someone's position. I chose not to refute to point of one man, because the idea that elders are not the same as pastors and that they don't have authority is patently false. Again, respond to the argument or don't respond at all.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Oh, and Jesus is a man who called himself a pastor.

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd (pastor) giveth his life for the sheep.
Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ποιμὴν ὁ καλός ὁ ποιμὴν ὁ καλὸς τὴν ψυχὴν αὐτοῦ τίθησιν ὑπὲρ τῶν προβάτων. (Jn. 10:11)

But I imagine you didn't mean to imply that Jesus is not fully human.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

ou don't have to refute every single point in someone's position. I chose not to refute to point of one man, because the idea that elders are not the same as pastors and that they don't have authority is patently false. Again, respond to the argument or don't respond at all

I will respond to whom I like thank you when I want. If you don't like it you can choose to not respond. But I will not be bullied.

I focused on that single one point as to not overwhelm you. Elders, presbyters, pastors, all interchangeable.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

I will respond to whom I like thank you when I want. If you don't like it you can choose to not respond. But I will not be bullied.

I'm not "bullying" you; I'm holding your feet to the fire. If you're just parroting an answer someone already anticipated, then don't bother unless you can add something new, because you only look like someone who didn't read what you're arguing against. If you're not going to refute my point of discussion and instead bring up another point, you are distracting from the fact that you don't actually have a good answer to the argument, and it shows. And now you're playing the "poor me" card to distract from the fact that I called you out on both points. That's not me telling you what to do (or else!); that's me telling you how you need to argue if you want to come across as doing anything more than dodging the points I raise.

I focused on that single one point as to not overwhelm you.

Because digesting five pages of responses before launching into a philological discussion of three Greek terms clearly was too much for me. But the point is moot. I fight on this issue of elder-bishops being egalitarian guides who never exercise authority. That is the only thing I agree to fight on until you or LoveofTruth or someone else can show us why my interpretations of the passages I cited are wrong.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I'm not "bullying" you; I'm holding your feet to the fire. If you're just parroting an answer someone already anticipated, then don't bother unless you can add something new, because you only look like someone who didn't read what you're arguing against. If you're not going to refute my point of discussion and instead bring up another point, you are distracting from the fact that you don't actually have a good answer to the argument, and it shows. And now you're playing the "poor me" card to distract from the fact that I called you out on both points. That's not me telling you what to do (or else!); that's me telling you how you need to argue if you want to come across as doing anything more than dodging the points I raise.

Because digesting five pages of responses before launching into a philological discussion of three Greek terms clearly was too much for me. But the point is moot. I fight on this issue of elder-bishops being egalitarian guides who never exercise authority. That is the only thing I agree to fight on until you or LoveofTruth or someone else can show us why my interpretations of the passages I cited are wrong.

I am not parroting anyone, why don't you go back and read through my numerous threads where I have broken this samething down over and over again. When you tell me to stop replying you are attempting to shut me up. Trust me there is no poor me card. I am just not going to be bullied by some indoctrinated person who is ironically enough parroting the same old line of why pastors are the sole person in charge of the church.

I think the OP was doing a fine job of explaining things whom I happen to agree with. Just the fact I think it was you who said visit the Greek Orthodox church to get some deeper understanding shows me you have not had your eyes opened yet. Sure, send them to a bunch of guys who do exactly what the bible says not to and dress just like the Pharisees.

The good shepherd is Jesus, alone.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Just the fact I think it was you who said visit the Greek Orthodox church to get some deeper understanding shows me you have not had your eyes opened yet.

*Takes a long drag on a cigarette.* Dude, I been "woke" before. I done the house church charismatic scene. Then I seen for myself what it do to people... people I cared about. All I'm saying is, come and see for yourself. Go to an Orthodox service for yourself and see what it does to people. It's not without its sinners, but it's not a game of thrones or an emperor's new clothes, either.

 

[truefiction1]

Sure, send them to a bunch of guys who do exactly what the bible says not to and dress just like the Pharisees.

The Bible does not say not to dress like them. There were Godly Pharisees who believed in Christ. These wore the same sorts of garments as the hypocrites.

 

[truefiction1]

Sure, send them to a bunch of guys who do exactly what the bible says not to and dress just like the Pharisees.

With regard to Orthodox Liturgical vestments, "The Lord is King, He is robed in majesty" (Psalms 93:1). So, yeah, I'd send them to a bunch of guys whose own identity disappears inside of majestic robes which metaphorically point to the Royal Priesthood and Kingly majesty of our Lord and our God, Jesus Christ In the Divine Liturgy.
.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

The Bible does not say not to dress like them. There were Godly Pharisees who believed in Christ. These wore the same sorts of garments as the hypocrites.

Matthew 23
5“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteriesa wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Καταλαβαίνετε Ελληνικά, κύριε; Actually, the word occurs 18 times in the New Testament. "Shepherd" is just another translation of "pastor," just as "overseer" is only another translation of "bishop." And the one verse you've overlooked is:

No, whenever Shepherd is used in the New Testament after Christ resurrection, it is used exclusively of the ONE Shepherd Jesus Christ. "The" Shepherd as I understand.

The word "pastors" in the plural form as a noun is used only once in Ephesians 4:11. Strangely this one gift has dominated Christendom for centuries. But there are five gifts mentioned. And just defining the word meanings does not define how it is used or the lack of use in the New Testament. Some act as if the things of God can simply be understood by the word meanings. No the order and body ministry is all known and seen and functioned in Christ and as he is the head of the church. There is no other head of the church, though some would try to say there is.

Elders as has already been established may be apostles as well as the other gifts 1Peter 5:1. An overseer is what the elders do they watch over and superintend. These men must simply be apt to teach. So they may also be the teacher gift as well. We also mentioned this verse in Corinthians

"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,..."(1 Co.r 12:27,28 KJV)

Notice no pastors are even mentioned there.

It cam be safely understood that we never see one man over a church called "the Pastor" in the New Testament from among the believers. This was a man made tradition that came much later and history has much to say about it.

This one man pastor tradition does not change easily.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

...ἦτε γὰρ ὡς πρόβατα πλανώμενα ἀλλ᾽ ἐπεστράφητε νῦν ἐπὶ τὸν ποιμένα καὶ ἐπίσκοπον τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν... (1Pet. 2:25)

Note the equation of the terms--both are referring to watching over the sheep. These are not two roles combined in one office; they are the same role.

You say two roles in one "office". The word "office" simply means function or practice. And they are two distinct aspects we can agree. But Though Jeus is THE one Shepherd over the flock and he is also the overseer or Bishop of our souls. These define him in different functions.

Jesus is also the apostle of us and High Priest

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"(Hebrews 3:1 KJV)

These two define him in different functions.

So already we se Jesus is the Shepherd, Bishop, Apostle, High {rest, and here are some more

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren."( Matthew 23:8 KJV)

He is also Master, and teacher and

"And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all."(Luke 4:15 KJV)

" The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. (Deut. 18:15,18)

and

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to thecaptives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"(Luke 4:18 KJV)

So already we see Jesus functions as

Shepherd
Bishop
Apostle
Prophet
Master
Teacher
Preacher
Healer
etc

Jesus fulfills all the functions and in Him the body of Christ functions. He gives all gifts from His power and life

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love."(Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV)

You can say this is talking about Jesus, not merely human elder-bishops, but see the logic of what is being argued. Peter's point about Jesus depends on the idea that shepherding and oversight go together, not the other way around. If that's so, why should we believe that human elder-bishops are so separated from the concept of shepherding?

I already showed that elders is who they are, mature brothers older men in the faith, and overseers, is what they do, they watch over and superintend. And the gifts of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastors and teachers, is their functioning in one or more of the gifts that may be among the elder overseers. Not all are pastors. That is the point and proven by scripture as I have shown. And that we never see a man in a "title" of pastor over a church doing most of the ministry and getting a regular salary as we do today. The gifts and not so much "titles" as gifts and functions.

Not only that, but the verse occurs in the context of a lengthy discussion on obeying earthly authorities.

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
...καὶ οὓς μὲν ἔθετο ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρῶτον ἀποστόλους δεύτερον προφήτας τρίτον διδασκάλους ἔπειτα δυνάμεις εἶτα χαρίσματα ἰαμάτων ἀντιλήψεις, κυβερνήσεις γένη γλωσσῶν... (1Cor. 12:28)

The word in question is where we get the word cybernetics, the science of communication and control. It itself is derived from the verb κῠβερνᾰ́ω, which refers to piloting a boat. The pilot of a boat was literally the dude who was in charge of the ship. Ergo, 1Cor. 12:28 teaches that being in charge "in the church" was a divine appointment. You can argue, if you like, that all believers have the gift of "governments," but I ask you, what happens when multiple people are trying to steer the same vehicle at the same time? Shipwreck. Hence why Protestantism, and especially Pentecostalism, is a fragmented mess.

The word "governments" there simply means to steer or direct. I believe that God gives elders to watch over the flock and as they are led by the Spirit in the word they have the rule. This rule is to hold fast the faithful word of God and to live in the new creation and be led by Christ in the word. To have the rule, means they speak the word of God and are an example in Christ to others.

Elder brothers are more able to rightly divide the word of truth and exhort the gainsayers by sound doctrine and to convince the gainsayers by doctrine and the word in the Spirit than babes. Babes are unskillful in the word of righteousness. But they do not have to stay that way. There should come a time when they all should be ale to teach the word and know it well and be sound in doctrine etc.

And elder brother is like a this. There are two boys in a family, one is older and the other much younger. The younger one wants to climb ob the fence and walk between the yards, but the elder brother says to him. "he don't do that" and the younger brother may say "your not the boss of me". But then the elder brother says,"Father said we must not do it" and "I did that myself and fell into the next yard and was attacked by the dog". Now the younger brother might say ok because he hears the fathers voice as well and loves the father and the elder brother taught him by example and wisdom.

The elders have no positional authority over the younger, but more a moral spiritual authority in the fathers word, for they are all brethren. But the elder brother has the word of the father clearer understood than the younger so he will seek to watch over the younger and help him and he has already learned certain things that the younger may not have. A wise younger brother will see his elder brother as loving him and caring for him and listen to the word of the father he conveys.

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι διπλῆς τιμῆς ἀξιούσθωσαν μάλιστα οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ... (1Tim. 5:17)

The term προεστῶτες refers literally to one who is placed before or above others. It is the same word that Paul uses earlier to refer to the head of a household (1Tim. 3:5) who "rules" over his children (3:12). This implies that at least some elders have the gift of government or cybernetics whereas other others do not, and explicitly tells us that some govern better than others and should be given extra respect. To brush off this bishop-elder role as only being "oversight" is to suggest that Chapter 3 imagines the parent as being someone who merely leads their child by example and doesn't have control in the sense of headship and discipline, which in turn would imply (because of the analogy in Ephesians 5) that Christ himself is not the head of the Church in the sense of commanding it.

You twist authority here and add "rule" in a wrong sense. This word is to stand before, not lord over in this context. OVER seers watch over not lord over. Also notice that the elders are "Plural" always more than one. They "rule" by having the rule" which is the word of God in the Spirit in Christ as they live in the new creation.

Paul said

"5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Timothy 3:3 KJV)

Notice how a man can "rule" his own house but "take care of the church, not the same here. We are not to rule in this sense. Elder overseers "have the rule" for they speak the word of God (Heb 13:7 KJV). They hold fast the faithful word as they have been taught (Titus 1) and are able to exhort and convince the gainsayers with sound doctrine. So they are very valued, esteemed, honoured and helpful to the body

Paul said more about this word rule here

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."(Galatians 6;15,16 KJV)

also we read of God ruling in our hearts

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another..."(Colossians 3:15,16 KJV)

Notice here the rule we walk in is to live in the new creation in Christ. The word "rule in Colossians 3:15 is to "govern". God is the one who governs in our hearts and all believers hearts. When we are in the peace of God and walking in the spirit then we are able to Let the Word of Christ dwell in us richly and to teach and admonish etc. Elders are more mature in this and they have the word more richly. This is for the good of others not as a controller or ruler over them as the Gentiles rulers are.

Paul also said

"Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faithbut are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Paul said specifically we are NOT to be like that. Yet this dominion, rule, control, supreme authority as Masters of Divinity over others is exactly what the modern role of Pastor has fit into, sadly

Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others (Matthew 20:25-27), and said “it shall not be so among you”.

And the verse you use where the word "rule"is used is in the same context as Hebrews 13:7, "to have the rule, for they have spoken unto you the word of God". The word of God is the rule in Christ. Jesus said as many as walk according to his commandments, or word are His disciples John 15. And in Hebrews 13:20,21, we see that it is God who works in every believer to make them perfect unto every good work. So all we do is led by God even when he works through elder overseers to direct things or steer us in a certain direction through revelation of his word. True believers will hear this witness in their spirit and be able to say "amen" to the word taught. They should also yield to this word and give heed ad take note of those who speak this word and to know them who do so and esteem them highly. But not so high as to make them lords over others .

Jesus clarified the issue when he said

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:" (Matthew 20:25-27 KJV)

How much clearer can it be. Yet this dominion, (rule, like lords) and authority over others is exactly what we see in many churches today.

 

[LoveofTruth]

With regard to Orthodox Liturgical vestments, "The Lord is King, He is robed in majesty" (Psalms 93:1). So, yeah, I'd send them to a bunch of guys whose own identity disappears inside of majestic robes which metaphorically point to the Royal Priesthood and Kingly majesty of our Lord and our God, Jesus Christ In the Divine Liturgy.
.

we are all brothers in Christ and when a distinction is made of one over the other by outward jess etc this sets him up as a exalted man over all. Paul said who made you to differ one from the other

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.(Romans 12:3 KJV)

" And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. 7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"

and possibly a spiritual example here as well as physical

" My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. 2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?...9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."(James 2:2-4,9 KJV)

 

[LoveofTruth]

and explicitly tells us that some govern better than others and should be given extra respect.

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."(James 1:1 KJV)

Are you convinced as a transgressor and in sin as scripture shows here by your words?

we can esteem, honour and value others in their gifts. But not respect. Respect means favouritism, partiality etc in Greek. I'm sure you will look it up in Greek.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

I done the house church charismatic scene. Then I seen for myself what it do to people... people I cared about

For the record I am not endorsing the "house church charismatic scene". The charismatic movement as a whole is off the rails and off in new age and all kinds of horrible things. I am glad the Lord opened your eyes to that. But it is possible there is a bigger picture, a root so to speak here that the OP and myself are trying to share. Funny thing is some of these "house churches" are lead by men who do the same thing that is described in the thread with the aspirations of starting their own church just to become Pastor King. I had a "pastor" tell me so if you start a home church eventually it will get so big you will have to move to a building. To which I promptly corrected him and said, if it gets too big then there will be a second home where the Lord will provide elders. This is a mindset, a stronghold in the body, that ultimately there needs to be a building with a man over people.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

No, whenever Shepherd is used in the New Testament after Christ resurrection, it is used exclusively of the ONE Shepherd Jesus Christ. "The" Shepherd as I understand.

Answer the argument. You and your cohort seem to have a problem with flitting over to making a different point of your own and then rambling on about it every time someone raises a point either of you doesn't like. I'll state it again so that there's no mistaking it: In 1Pet. 2:25 the Apostle argues from the metaphor of sheep to say that now Christ is Pastor and Bishop of our souls. It makes no sense to develop from talking about people being sheep to Christ being an overseer if the ideas are not already connected and if a pastor is not some kind of overseer. It doesn't help your case at all to point out that this is speaking about Jesus, because Peter is bringing the metaphor to bear on Jesus, not the other way around. Until you can address that counter-argument, you are just blustering.

The word "governments" there simply means to steer or direct.

Oh no it doesn't "simply mean" that, and if I had any hope that you might know more Greek than you let on, you just dashed it. In Pirates of the Caribbean and Star Trek, the guy steering the boat is just an ensign, but we're referring to a time way before a sophisticated hierarchy of modern military command. Usually, in ancient times, the "governor" steered the ship and commanded. Plato's Republic VI.488-489 is built entirely on that premise:

[Socrates said,] "Conceive this sort of thing happening either on many ships or on one: Picture a shipmaster in height and strength surpassing all others on the ship, but who is slightly deaf and of similarly impaired vision, and whose knowledge of navigation is on a par with his sight and hearing. Conceive the sailors to be wrangling with one another for control of the helm, each claiming that it is his right to steer though he has never learned the art and cannot point out his teacher or any time when he studied it. And what is more, they affirm that it cannot be taught at all, but they are ready to make mincemeat of anyone who says that it can be taught, and meanwhile they are always clustered about the shipmaster importuning him and sticking at nothing to induce him to turn over the helm to them. And sometimes, if they fail and others get his ear, they put the others to death or cast them out from the ship, and then, after binding and stupefying the worthy shipmaster with mandragora or intoxication or otherwise, they take command of the ship, consume its stores and, drinking and feasting, make such a voyage of it as is to be expected from such [persons]..."

You wanna guess what Greek cognate shows up every time the "helm" is mentioned in this excerpt? The "governor" of the ship was its captain. "Government" was captaincy. And according to Paul here, there were captains in the church.

You twist authority here and add "rule" in a wrong sense. This word is to stand before, not lord over in this context.

No, I think it's you who's conflating the idea of singular authority with "lording over" other people. I think you have a problem with other people telling you what to do, and so you paint anyone who is telling others what to do as tyrants, whether they're actually abusing their position or not. I think you misunderstand the sin of the Pharisees to be that they were in charge at all, rather than that they were irresponsibly in charge, which is Jesus's real point.

Notice how a man can "rule" his own house but "take care of the church, not the same here. We are not to rule in this sense.

Then why the heck does Paul even draw the analogy? Not just here, but multiple times in the New Testament. It's the same story as how you interpret 1Pet. 2:25. You're getting so into the weeds of the wording that you're walking right past the semantics of what you're reading without even realizing they're there. Paul is arguing that if you don't have the skill of responsible command in your household, you have no business assuming an office that cares for the needs of the church. WHY WOULD YOU NEED SKILL AT COMMAND FOR A CHURCH OFFICE, IF THE OFFICE DIDN'T INVOLVE COMMAND???

Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faithbut are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller.

Literally, yes, κυριεύω means to dominate. But you're missing the connotation of even the English translation. Dominion doesn't just mean rule; it means to have ownership of people as a dominus or κύριος. When someone was your dominus in the Roman world, you were a slave who could be abused at will. That is the implication behind Jesus saying (Lk. 22:25) that Gentile kings get parades for dominating their people, and behind Paul saying (Rom. 6 & 7) that sin and the Law dominates non-Christians. All domination is a type of rule, but not all rule is a type of domination. Someone can be the shepherd and governor of a church (not of THE Church, mind you; I'm arguing for Orthodoxy, not Roman Catholicism) and not be a dominator of that same church.

"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."(James 1:1 KJV)

Equivocation. I wrote respect in the sense of honor (τιμή), in the same sense as it's used in 1Tim. 5:17. Surely you don't reject that. "Honour (τίμα) thy father and mother" (Eph. 6:2)? But here in James 2, you're talking about προσωπολημπτέω, which means showing partiality or literally, "receiving someone on the basis of face." Apples and oranges, man. When I kiss my priest's hand at the end of Orthodox Liturgy, it's the common understanding of everyone there that I'm showing him τίμα as our teacher and manager of the parish. When I kiss the icons, it's everybody's understanding that I'm showing the saint or Virgin Mary depicted τίμα as holy people whose examples should inspire me. If I wanted to προσωπολημπτέω toward that priest or the saints, I would tell the priest that I don't think he's worth listening to because he's of Arabic descent, or I would go out of my way to ignore Saint Mary of Egypt just because she had ovaries. That's the difference.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To all:

it is time to shake off the drudge and filth of man made religious forms and dead traditions that bind up men in spirit quenching deadness. That imprison the saints under false authority and exalted men who dominate and hinder the body of Christ.

Let us be free in Christ and follow Him wherever he goes.

I don't believe in the authority of exalted men who Lord over the flock, but in the authority of Christ in believers and His word that comes from His life and in the body.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I wrote respect in the sense of honor (τιμή), in the same sense as it's used in 1Tim. 5:17. Surely you don't reject that. "Honour (τίμα) thy father and mother" (Eph. 6:2)? But here in James 2, you're talking about προσωπολημπτέω, which means showing partiality or literally, "receiving someone on the basis of face." Apples and oranges, man.

No you said

mothcorrupteth said: ↑
and explicitly tells us that some govern better than others and should be given extra respect."

and I said

"LoveofTruth said: ↑
"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors."

"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons."(James 1:1 KJV)

Are you convinced as a transgressor and in sin as scripture shows here by your words?

we can esteem, honour and value others in their gifts. But not respect. Respect means favouritism, partiality etc in Greek. I'm sure you will look it up in Greek."

Notice I also said this about esteem and honour. But you used the words "extra respect".This is part of the problem today, men have favoritism and partiality and show respect of persons.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Literally, yes, κυριεύω means to dominate.

no it means this also

The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller."

Paul said we are not to be like this, but this is what the one man exalted pastor over all has today,

Even in the so called man made constitutions today we read

“The pastor shall be the spiritual overseer of the assembly and of all it’s activities” and that ,

“the pastor has freedom of the pulpit” ( Article IV section 1, C)

And in the By-Law II, section 1, of the pastor that;

“he shall provide for all the services of the assembly, no person shall be invited to speak or to preach in the assembly without his approval”

And in By-law V section 2 of the Local Church Constitution we read;

“no member or any number of members shall call any private, secret or business or devotional meetings without the knowledge and consent of the Board and the Pastor”

These similar principles apply to all those associated with the many assemblies today, yet these so called By-Laws go against the scriptures of truth and make the word of God of no effect. They hinder the free ministry of the saints and Christ’s headship among them. This man called “THE” Pastor, does not fit into the biblical role, and is more like a “Pope” with similar power, and like the Gentile rule that Jesus said we are not to have (Matthew 20:25-27). Here is an example of the Pope’s false power which a lot of today’s ministry stems from;

“The Roman Pontiff...as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme, and universal power over the entire church.” (#882 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church). He is also said to be the head (#883).


REASONS FOR REJECTING THESE MAN-MADE LAWS IN THEIR CONSTITUTIONS

• First of all, the Bible does not set up a one man pastor ministry, yet the constitution sets him up alone under the “Ministry” section on pg. 8. I repeat, THE PASTOR IS SET UP AS THE ONE MAN MINISTRY UNDER THE MINISTRY SECTION ON PG, 8 WHICH IS UNBIBLICAL. God, however, gave gifts unto men calling some, “apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelist; and some, pastors and teachers” (Ephesians 4:11), and not just a “one man pastor”. So, here, the constitution confuses the saints because it goes against the word of God making it of no effect. Beware!

• If the pastor is over “the assembly and all of it’s activities” (Article IV section 1), then the saints are not totally free to let God direct them in their gifts and ministries and to let God be the author of the meetings, who gives to every man “severally as he will”(1 Cor. 12;11). God should direct all the activities and the saints should wait on God. Overseers (in the plural) watch over the flock , not just one man. They, however, do not lord over the flock, but should encourage men to use what God has given them, 1 Peter 4:10, 11. But, often the one man ministry lords over all activities, and others are intimidated and quenched and are not aware of the biblical freedoms God commands and allows. I think some ministers prefer that others are not aware of their freedoms in Christ, sadly. BEWARE!

• A pastor should not be the only one to “provide for all the services of the assembly” when we gather together (By-Law II section 1). The scriptures say that through Christ as the head, “every joint supplies” (Ephesians 4:16). “And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee” (1 Cor. 12:21). But, contrary to this, many are treated in the assembly as if they were not needed, or as if anything they had to say the pastor would say eventually. This is wrong. BEWARE!

• What if an evil man got into the oversight and no one could exhort him or speak freely in the assembly, and what if he had the power to stop others from speaking or from exposing him? Remember the past Popes, and read 3 John 9 about a man named Diotrephes. He loved to have the preeminence and cast some out of the church. John warns the saints not to follow this kind of evil man. So again we must BEWARE!

• In the Constitution, Article IV, C., The Pastor, alone, has “freedom of the pulpit”. This goes against the freedoms that all the saints are allowed in the church. For all are to have freedom to edify one another, and use their gifts, anytime (1 Corinthians 14:26-30, Romans 12:1-8), and to exhort one another, (Hebrews 10:25, Hebrews 3:13). All can speak and minister as God gives grace and ability (1 Peter 4:10,11), and every joint is to supply, (Ephesians 4:16), and there is need of more than just pastors (Ephesians 4:11). The body is also able to teach and admonish one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, (Colossians 3:16). So then, if this pulpit ministry hinders us, we should remove the pulpit, and the false one man ministry that is set up. Even this thing called the “altar” is nowhere to be found in the New Testament, and is a high place to be removed. Again, the word of God is made of no effect by these constitutional laws which don’t give freedom but rather bondage, BEWARE!

• The constitution talks of “THE” pastor in the singular, but there are a few pastors (so called) at many assemblies. So are these other men not really pastors? And what about the apostles, prophets, evangelist, teachers, and all other gifts? Why are they not included? Every joint must supply. The pastor cannot do all this, and he is not “THE” only one who is to minister. But, he is set up as a one man ministry in the constitution. So again, this is mans way not the KING’S WAY. BEWARE!

• Where in the Bible is it necessary for the saints to get permission from “THE” pastor to gather together and pray or to have devotional meetings, as in By-Law V? But, we can see how this would tighten their preeminent role. BEWARE!

• Where do we see in the scriptures, a pastor being given such worldly titles as “Chairman of the Deacon Board” (Article IV B), or “ex officio”? We read of other worldly rudiments in the constitution such as, President, Treasurer, Secretary, elections, etc. This sounds again, of gentile dominion, (Matthew 20:25-27) and worldly rudiments. BEWARE!

• In Article IV section D of the Local Church Constitution, we see that “The Pastor shall be responsible for the selection of and hiring of all staff members and employees”. Whatever happened to “it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us” (Acts 15:28). And where do we see pastors hiring people in the Bible? Many may be forced to be men pleasers of the Pastor to keep their job, but as Paul said, “if we should seek to please men we should not be the servants of Christ”. BEWARE!

 

[truefiction1]

There's some deep, inner affliction that is motivating this personal rebellion against all God-given human authority. Best to seek healing from God through contrite repentance and prayerful silence. Anything but this won't be profitable for the soul at this point.