• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

Featured The Pastor King (New)

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Dec 20, 2017.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    That was only temporary, and was never accepted as a permanent situation. We have this condition even today in certain parishes (local congregations), hear and there, while they await the arrival of a new presbyter.
     
  2. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,512
    Christian
    I am not talking about the men individually and this is not a personal issue about certain men. But I am rebuking the very modern role of pastor today and saying that is is not found in scripture, and the function and rule and control that this role imparts to whoever is in it. I am speaking for the commandments of the Lord for his order and body ministry. Body ministry is hindered greatly by the one man pastor ministry over all.

    I do not attack godly elders who may have various gifts among them, including apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers. But the one man pastor ministry that says in some man made constitutions that the elders are the supportive arm of the pastor and at his direction. is unbiblical and does attack the true elders ministry. All elders and all the body should be free to edify each other as they gather and wait on the Lord. But instead we see a man made tradition that quenches the spirit and hinders body ministry

    I am also aware that some will find fault with what I teach based on their wrong understanding of the gifts today and some will not even believe that there are any apostles, or prophets today. But I believe they are very wrong in that as well. So, they may be biased from the start and not be able to understand the body ministry and the five fold ministry gifts given in Ephesians 4:11.

    and as far as saying I am not in the spirit of love you are wrong. I have sat in these man made religious forms and wept often for the ministers and the people. I have talked and prayed for many whom I have met and sought to help over the years.
     
  3. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,512
    Christian
    Show me one verse that says all elders and overseers (Bishop is the same word for overseer in greek), that they were all "pastors", and and this goes directly against scripture where Paul said,

    "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead"(Galatians 1:1 KJV)

    Notice that Paul was not made an apostle of men or by men. No man is made an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher of men or by men. These are direct gifts from God not from men. As scripture teaches

    "8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men....11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"(Ephesians 4:8,11 KJV)

    Notice it is God who give gifts, not men or by man.

    So for any man today to go to a so called Bible school or Seminary, Buy his way into a course and take a pastoral course , take a test and then he is now a pastor, and may also get a degree as Master of Divinity" finds no place in the New testament . This is not how a man is made a pastor or apostle or prophet or evangelist or teacher. Isn't it interesting how men can take a pastoral course but not a prophet course or apostle course or evangelist course, for the most part?.

    We also read.

    "7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."( 1 Cpr 12"7-11 KJV)

    The same is said for the five fold gifts of Eph 4:11. No man can give another a gift from themselves. No man can buy his way into such a gift or study his way into it. It is God who gives severally as HE WILLS.
     
  4. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,512
    Christian
    This is still the way it is today. When we plant a church, I may be with another worker or two and the people we gather with many times are not mature yet, and so they do not have elders yet. This takes time and as they grow together God will make overseers, if they walk in his direction.

    I am working with a meeting now that has two homes they meet in and yet no mature elders yet. I visit them and talk with them often after laying the foundation and I can almost recognize a few men to be elders. When the time is right I and others hopefully will ordain elders in that church.

    But for now they have some brothers that are more mature and who can share and teach. But all the body also is taught to wait on the Lord for ministry and gifts.

    There is also a part of that order for women as well. But that is another long post I may share here in the future.
     
  5. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    But not without the laying on of hands to impart the authority to perform any of these ministries within the Church. Christ gave His authority to the Apostles by breathing upon them and sending them out with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles transmitted this power and authority, to certain degrees, to others by the laying on of hands. The power and authority itself is not from men, but from God, but is transmitted only by the sacramental "laying on of hands". The present day practice of setting in place certain training "requirements" for people being considered for ordination is certainly not found in the Bible. A seminary education may not be the best way for a person to be prepared for leadership in the Church either. Their may even be some instances today wherein men have been ordained as "presbyters" without having graduated with a degree from the seminary. The presbyter who presides over the parish (local Church) that I belong to did not go to the seminary as is usually required. He is an older gentleman who is employed in his private practice as a dentist. He has had a minimal of seminary schooling, which he did not go to the seminary for, but did from his own home. But he was prepared for becoming a presbyter by virtue of having served alongside the former one as an ordained deacon for over 25 years. Seminary is set up as a means by which Church leadership can try to safeguard the faithful from improperly prepared leaders.
     
  6. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

    687
    +354
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    So we are in accord then? Some pastors are good, which is biblical?
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    What do you call your Church, when did it start, and does it's lineage extend back to the laying on of hands by the Apostles?
     
  8. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

    687
    +354
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Church is the gathering of two or more in Christ's name.
    And it is notable that I have the same faith as those three that were gathered in his name that were tossed into the fire by Nebuchadnezzar. Same Spirit.....
     
  9. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Well, if your definition of the Church holds true, then what can be said of those two or more gathering in Christ's name who don't know Who Christ really is? Are they also the Church? Are Jehovah's Witnesses gathering in Christ's name the Church? Are Mormons, who believe that Christ is the same person as the Father and the Holy Spirit, just at a different time, the Church? Am I to trust their understandings of Who Christ is to be true, because they gather in Christ's name and there are at least two of them?
     
  10. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    If the authority to assemble and deliberate and give form to Christian belief did not come from Christ Who gave that authority to His Apostles, who then in turn imparted it to others by the Sacred "Apostolic" Tradition of the laying on of hands, then that authority is lacking.
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Here, I will answer my own question: the teaching authority of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, and the myriad of all the other sectarian start up groups did not come, and does not come from Christ. It comes from people like Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, and other such founders of new churches, all of which teach something that is not the Truth about Who Jesus Christ really is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  12. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

    687
    +354
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Matthew 18:20 KJV For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Thank you Keith, I know the Scriptures and agree with them. But those who gather in Christ's name but deny that He is the Incarnate, Eternal Word of the Eternal Father are not the Church. The Church are those who worship the Incarnate Word of God as God, and obey Him because He is the Word of God -- equal to the Father, yet a different Person than the Father.
     
  14. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

    687
    +354
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Then they would not be truly gathering in his name would they?
     
  15. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    That's what I'm saying. They lack teachers who have received authority to define Biblical doctrine from Christ, Who passed His authority to His Apostles by breathing on them, and they in turn passed the authority on to their successors, the bishops, who they ordained by the laying on of hands. This Apostolic authority has been transmitted within the ancient historical Church all the way back to the Apostles. The authority to define Church teaching comes from our Lord and resides in all of the bishops together with the whole body of the Church. The Church is visible as well as invisible. False teaching falsifies the understanding of Who Christ is within the gatherings of those who follow the false teaching. This goes for any false teaching about God or the Church, which is the Body of Christ. If we don't know Who Christ really is, and we really can't know Him unless we have attained His likeness in ourselves, then we can't fully gather in His name. Though by the grace of the Holy Spirit it still possible to know Him in part.
     
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,512
    Christian
    I hope you are not applying this to me, take heed it will fall on your head if you do. I fear God and depart from evil. The problem is that many who hear the things I share with them do not depart from the evil they are in and the quenching of the spirit by a one man dominant ministry over them. John calls Diotrephese evil in 3rd John 9,10, and he loved the pre eminence among them and would not receive the brothers and kicked them out of the church. Those who follow such a way are the evil ones, not what i say about body ministry and elders plural in every church.

    I do not seek my own way or will. But God works in me to will and to do, and to make me perfect unto every good work. The ones who set up their religious forms and rituals and commandments of men are the ones who do things right in their own eyes. They do not obey the commandments of the Lord for this order and so Paul says they are "ignorant" and should not be received.

    This is true, follow God's ways not mans, or mans traditions that make the word of God of no effect as many do today. Read Colossians 2:8 and beware.

    Yes, this is how home grown elders are known and recognized. As they are allowed to freely minister like everyone else. The brothers and sisters will know them in their ministry and gifts. They will hear the consistent words from a mature brother and be fed. But today the body does not do this. Instead they hire a superstar from a school, who may or may not have been among them all along and tested as 1 timothy says to do. They may be the ones who quench the spirit in others and have dominion over all in supreme control and false authority.

    Another good verse. But this is not done in most assemblies. Here we see consensus decision making. The entire church makes decisions, not just one pastor or a few elders. The whole church can hear and judge and speak and minister to each other. This is unlike many assemblies today who have one man make all the decisions and who has control of all the activities of the assembly. They even write such a control in their man made by laws and constitutions.

    Yes and them that sin rebuke before all. Paul had to rebuke Peter before all as soon as he saw they they walked not uprightly in the truth. the very truth of the gospel was at stake.

    I am not rebuking elders for specific sin. i am rebuking the very form and man made order that fights against the commands of God and body ministry and exalts a man over all. Paul rebuked such leaders and wrote about it as well

    "12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 16 I say again, let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. 17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting. 18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face."( 2 Corinthians 11;12-20 KJV)

    You misunderstand this verse. The word "obey" is not the same word as Children obey your parents. It ,means to be convinced by or to persuade. The word "submit" is also different it means to yield as in combatants. The idea here is that the overseers had the rule ( which is to say they have spoken the word of God vs 7 and have the word , they are ministers of the spirit in the word. This is the authority that all should be convinced by and persuaded by and yield to. Paul says similar in Titus

    "9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers."(Titus 1:9 KJV)

    I have not accused anyone personally in here. I have simply talked about a wrong order and unbiblical one man pastor role as it is set up today that fights against the body ministry and quenches the spirit in the gatherings. Even if these men are godly men and humble in such a role they will hinder many times the body. Even if they have the best messages that human ingenuity can muster. Or even in those rare cases where they are spirit led and speak from heaven.

    I have on the other hand spoken to many so called "pastors" and elders over the years.

    I am not talking about any specific pastor so called. I am talking about the modern role and function as we see it today. This is not a personal issue with any man.

    No I talk about the general knowledge of how men go to a bible school and pay for a few courses and take test and then they are pastors. I show this to be unbiblical and that God calls men to be pastor gifts and apostles and prophets etc , not man. You call this gossip? this is not right. I am speaking of a general role seen to day, not any specific man.

    I am correct as I walk in the word and believe the scriptures that command body ministry. And every believer has an "office" the word means function, practice work. Not as some make it mean today. And all have an office

    " 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:..." (Romans 12:4-7 KJV)

    I never said anything about "worshipping"them.

    I know every man will be accountable for what they say and do.But I am not speaking of particular men in here. And I have gone to many of them, as the Lord leads.

    The expression "your pastor". As if somehow this one man is over all and has supreme control and authority over all the church and all its activities (because the man made constitutions set him up this way) is false.

    John says some troubling words for many when certain men seduced them and acted as if they needed them so much

    "26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."9 1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

    Notice we have no need that any man should teach us. Believers listen to the new man in Christ and as Christ the head of that new man ministers and effectually works in the body and each part functions in their place. Some will function as elders and be mature in the word and able to rightly divide it others are babe and unskillful for a time in the word.

    But what if they accuse a man of God and they do so rightly with scripture. Then the man resist because of pride and a false authority he believes he has over others. Jesus, Paul and John and Peter warn of this.

    Also the expression "biblical authority is also a greatly misunderstood things and not the way many see it today. That is another long talk.

    And John Mcarthur does not believe in the gift for today or apostles and prophets as I understand. So he and i would have issues immediately. I would stand with scripture not sure where he would have a leg to stand on in this instance.

    Why stress only the one gift. God gave apostles prophets, evangelist and teachers also.

    In fact Paul says in the church there are things set a certain way

    "28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,..."(1 Corinthians 12:28 KJV)

    Do you see pastors there? Do you see the pastor as the first in function? Or second or third?

    You are in error here the way you speak about me. I do this openly not behind people backs. Try to get John Mcarthur or any other so called "pastors" to come in here and talk with me. I welcome it. I am not gossiping about any personality. I speak in general of the modern role of pastor and the biblical order.

    Now you know the heart of a man? I seek true unity in the body where we all speak the same things and have the same mind and the same judgement and in the unity if the Spirit in the bond of peace. I seek to be able to wait on the Lord with all my brothers and sisters and not to be hindered by the one man over all called the pastor who tries to control and direct how we should function. Even when we are functioning as God commands us.

    I can simply echo Paul's similar words when he had to rebuke false ministers and exalted men he said

    "11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth."( 2 Cor 11"11 KJV)

    and

    2 Corinthians 12:15
    "And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved."
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,512
    Christian
    The so called "apostolic succession is not true and is another whole discussion

    The whole idea of authority is greatly misunderstood today

    The pharisees tried to attack Jesus by asking him what authority he does what he does. They did not recognize jesus as an official authority. Yet when Jesus spoke he spoke as one having authority not as the scribes and pharisees. Jesus was not an earthly king or political leader as they knew. He did not have a position in the temple and among the scribes and pharisees as they recognized. yet he had authority from God. Believers today have similar authority as they live and speak the word of God and are in the power of the Lord. Jesus has all power and authority and as we walk in Jesus Christ and do all things in His name. We have authority.

    No man should listen to another professing believer who tells them to go against the scriptures and God's word. When they do this they have no spiritual authority.

    But again this is a long talk.

    Authority is not a static position, or role like a policeman in the world. In the church the authority is a spiritual moral authority in Christ as he leads in all things.
     
  18. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

    +1,512
    Christian
    Churches were named by locations such as the church Corinth etc

    The church is the body of Christ and as believers gather together in Christ they are the church. We read of the church which meets in their home.
     
  19. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

    +1,643
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. He demonstrated His authority by wielding the power of God in many ways. He passes that authority on within His established Church by the laying on of hands by His Apostles and their successors. The Bible and all other ancient Christian writings bear witness that this was the Tradition of the ancient Church from the very beginning. No founder of a new church is Christ. They do not have the power of God to wield in like manner as Him. The Apostles did, as we see in the Book of Acts. Throughout the long history of the ancient Church this same power has been manifest in various members of the Church. Some were bishops, some priests, some deacons, some monks, nuns, laity, teachers, martyrs, confessors, etc. I'm personally aware of God's power manifesting inside of the ancient Church of which I am a member, as I am a witness of these manifestations. I have no such evidence of your claims.
     
  20. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

    687
    +354
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    This thread makes my head hurt.
    Pastors are not the bad guys is my point.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...