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Featured The Pastor King (New)

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Dec 20, 2017.

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  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    we also read an interesting verse in 1 Cor

    "28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers,..."9 1 Cor 123:28 KJV)

    Isn't it interesting how no pastors are mentioned here. Yet these are set in the church. And yet many would have us believe that the pastor gift is to be over all and the main ministry and none else is free to minister as God commands in scripture (1 Cor 14_26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11 etc etc etc etc etc)
     
  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    What this passage indicates is that God grants people authority to perform specific ministries through the established authorities within the Church, which is called by Paul the "Pillar and groundwork of truth". It seems to me that you don't acknowledge any visible Church that has authoritative bodies within her. The Holy Spirit instructed the authoritative gathering of duly ordained ministers to confer upon Paul and Barnabas the authority and power of the Holy Spirit to perform this ministry by "laying hands on them". This is how the authority and power is transmitted from those who have it to those who have been chosen to receive it.
     
  3. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Paul acknowledges the office of pastor, but the word used by him is "bishop" which also means "overseer". The bishop is charged with managing all things in the Church. See here? "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil." (1 Timothy 3:1-7)

    So, as you can see from the Bible, there were pastors (bishops) who were in charge of local churches who were ordained within the Church for this ministry.
     
  4. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Full time maintaining of supernatural empowerment? That is a new one and a mouthful lol. Wonder where that is in the bible.
     
  5. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Yes the false clergy/laity divide supplanted by "certain orders that start with the letter J" and institutions/seminaries mainline churches also infiltrated by masons.
     
  6. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    Proverbs 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil: but the fool rageth, and is confident.
    Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.
    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    1 Thessalonians 5:12-13 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
    Matthew 18:15-20 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
    Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

    You have accused elders of the church openly without going to them. There is no pastors present to defend themselves. You gossip about their actions, as if you, yourself dictates if the Holy Spirit has called them to this office. You are correct in your own eyes in spite of scripture saying that their are people of this office. I'm not one who is worshipping pastors as kings. They are elders of the church who have had training in the word and are apt to teach and shepherd the flock. They are and will be accountable for their own actions to the Lord. You have no forgiveness in the matter. If you have problems with a pastor, go to them directly as the Bible instructs.

    To confront your pastor of sin is a very serious charge and should be taken extremely seriously. John Piper once provided the following counsel to his pastoral staff about unity:

    "The New Testament warns against gossiping. The Greek word translated “gossip” means whisper or whisperer. In other words, the focus is not on the falsehood of the word but on the fact that it needs to be surreptitious. It is not open and candid and forthright. It has darkness about it. It does not operate in the light of love. It is not aiming at healing. It strokes the ego’s desire to be seen as right without playing by the rules of love."

    John MacArthur "There are always people eager to falsely accuse a man of God. They may do so because they resent his calling, reject his teaching, resist biblical authority, resent virtue, or are jealous of the Lord’s blessing on his life. Ultimately, however, they demonstrate by making such accusations that they have become messengers of Satan. Such false accusations are one of his most dangerous weapons. Joseph, Moses, David, Jeremiah, Nehemiah, and our Lord Jesus Christ all suffered from false accusations."

    My pastor teaches the Word of God. Supports our missionaries. (Missionaries are frequently in our church). We have a large outreach program. Bible studies from other members of our church. Youth program from other members of our church.

    As I stated before, there are some, NOT ALL, who are wise in their own eyes and spread their own message. Those few pastors may need to be addressed, but in a biblical way. Not on here like some hooligan gossiping behind people's backs.

    These accusations have not been in the spirit of love, fellowship, brotherhood, or forgiveness.
    Remove the mote from your own eye and rebuke the dark spirit that has accompanied your speech.
    Love in Christ.
     
  7. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Absolutely. Now from my experience one can be single and do this but not married with children. Why do you think Paul labored in prayers and fastings amoung other things more than everyone else....he claimed? You just might not have a lot of practice experience in this. Jesus did not fast for 40 days for some weird religious reason.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  8. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Oh I agree. The Apostles had all kinds of arguments about who would be the greatest amoung them. Meaning, which one of them would be the head pastor, bishop or whatever. It’s just the way the world thinks. Their is a higher way.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  9. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    I don't recall order occupying anything but the smallest fraction of Paul's writings... Your response here quite misses my point, however. I wasn't speaking to the content of Paul's writing but to the order in which he communicated that content. He has no particular order in which he does so in his epistles, but, instead, addressed his teaching to the needs and circumstance of his audience.

    I read no where in Scripture that "no person can know this order unless they are in Christ and walk in the Spirit." In fact, there is almost nothing the New Testament says about order, general or particular. So, I'm puzzled that you are majoring on such a minor.

    How is God's preeminence in our spiritual lives a matter of order? That's an...unusual way to talk about His work in us by His Spirit.

    Yeah, just not getting this order stuff. Certainly, people can take almost anything and make it all about them. Why, when they do so in their relationship with God, is it an issue of order, though? It seems to me more a matter of pride and self-centeredness, not order.

    This is all a very odd way to frame what you are wanting to say. I don't see Scripture going on about God's order. Certainly, I have never read in Scripture that "this order is in the peace of God and as He rules in our heart." I have also not read in my Bible that "Man's traditions hinder the order that is in the peace of God ruling in our hearts." So, why are you going on about it?

    You might want to look up the Genetic Fallacy. You are indulging in this fallacy when you try to link modern architecture to millenia-old pagan architecture. Babylon does not have some sort of religious patent on the shape of buildings. Like I said, a bit kooky, here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  10. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No,you are not accurate again. An overseer is what elder do. elders plural were made overseers by the Holy Ghost in Acts 20. This is a function in the body. Elder is who they are, an older person or mature brother in the Lord as the greek speaks of. And Overseer is a superintendent, they attend to watching over the believers. But peter , who was an apostle as scripture says he was, was also an elder and overseer. Read 1 Peter 5:1and on KJV.

    "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."( 1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV)

    This shows that there is still no one man as a pastor only over the flock anywhere in the New Testament. An overseer who is an elder may be an apostle, prophet, teacher evangelist or pastor gift.

    Pastor gifts and as well as the other gifts are not so much titles as functions and min estuaries in the Spirit.

    And yes there are things to look for in those elders God has called as overseers and who desire to walk in such a call. Paul defines some of them in Timothy and Titus.

    and authority is not in the mans person, but in the Spirit and the word of God when they live in Christ life and power and speak and live the word of God. Authority flows from Christ the head to the body. All believers who live and speak the word of God have authority in the word. But elders are more skillful in the word of righteousness, babes are unskillful in this. So elders are more sound and able to live and speak and move in the word of God. But this does not mean that the word of God cannot come out from babes as well. it can and should. Read Col.3:15,16 and 1 Cor 14:26-38 1 Cor 12 etc
     
  11. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes this hierarchy and so called "clergy/Laity" division is nowhere in scripture for the believers. We are all brothers and sisters and Christ alone is the head of the church. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter all warned of exalting men as authority over others and of lording over others.
     
  12. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Here are just a few examples of this order. Sometimes I have noticed that this order and aspects of certain work and ministration is not shown so clearly to those who do not do such a work. God reveals things to believers who are called in a certain work.

    But this "order" is all through the bible in different degrees and revelations

    Colossians 2:5
    For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ." Here Paul was able to behold their order in the spirit. Showing that this is a deeply spiritual order that manifest in our gatherings and lives. This is because it is God that worth in us to make us perfect unto EVERY GOOD work, working in us that which is well pleasing in His sight through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21). This is God ordering or arranging things for our good.

    Psalm 37:23
    "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way."

    Psalm 119:133
    "Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me."

    1 Chronicles 15:13
    "For because ye did it not at the first, the Lord our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order."

    1 Corinthians 11:34
    "And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come."

    1 Corinthians 14:40
    "Let all things be done decently and in order." ( this is God's order, for what man can make a person prophesy as they wait on the Lord. None can but the Lord who orders our steps.

    1 Corinthians 16:1
    "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye." ( Paul did not just do his own will but was led by the Spirit of God in this order

    Titus 1:5
    "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"

    Just some of the verses. Connected to these are a few more verses here

    2 Thessalonians 2:15
    "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

    1 Corinthians 11:2
    2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you."

    1 Corinthians 14:37
    "37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." Commands are Gods order for the gatherings,"an authoritative prescription, or injunction" in Greek. Whatever Paul wrote for the churches were the commandments of the Lord unless he specifically said they weren't, which he only did a few times.

    1 Thessalonians 4:11
    And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;"

    2 Thessalonians 3:10
    "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."

    I showed just a few verses above about this order. But this order is in the Spirit. I could just as easily said God's order is His Spiritual working in every part of the body. In fact I did say that in my tract. Here are some more verses

    "
    Romans 8:14
    "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." This spiritual leading of God in believers is similar to the steps of a righteous man being ordered of the Lord. As we walk in the Spirit we can do all things in Christ.

    This order is where Jesus Christ is the head of the body and works effectually in every part as Paul writes.

    "15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

    This is God's order and the freedom of the body to wait on the Lord for his effectual working in every part. Paul speaks of this in many epistles to the church. It seems many of these verses have been avoided and misunderstood by many for a long time. Men are often drawn to the carnal outward forms and rituals instead of drawn inward to hear God's voice and be led by him

    "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."(Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV)

    When in all things Jesus Christ has pre eminence then we are being led by Him and walk in the Spirit. This is how God worked through all His ministers of the past and every believer. When Paul wrote to the believers, he said they received it not as the word of men but as it is in truth the word of God that effectually worth in those that believe. This word of God is the life and if we continue in His word then are we in God's order in our lives. This is why in a gathering when the word of God comes out of the believers, this order should be the same in all gatherings. But mans traditions make the word of God of no effect. Consider what Paul said about this to the Corinthians and he rebuked them for thinking they were somehow to be different from other churches and they acted as if the word of God came out from them only.

    "36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."(1 Cor 14:236,37 KJV)

     
  13. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Elders, bishops, overseers... they all received this "pastoral" ministry by ordination by the laying on of hands by those who had previously been ordained to it, within the Church, in the same manner. They are pastors who have been ordained by the laying on of hands to minister as leaders in the local Churches.

    The local congregations in the early Church, during the time of the Apostles preaching, were not left without ordained leaders. These leaders were ordained by the laying on of hands. The Apostles, with the authority imparted to them by Christ and the Holy Spirit, established the practice of passing on that authority by the laying on of hands at the very beginning. They left strict instructions that this, along with other such Traditions that they taught were to be "held fast". Therefore, from where I sit, unless a man is ordained by the laying on of hands, by someone who received that authority to ordain others by the laying on of hands, and that authority has come down to them through and "unbroken lineage" from the Apostles themselves, I must reject it. If I don't hold fast to the Traditions of the Apostles, then I will have disobeyed the commandment of the Word of God.

    Therefore the only Biblical option for me is to remain in the historical Church that has held fast to the Apostolic Tradition. I have to do this even if there are bad leaders and other various problems or "tares among the wheat" here and there, with the occasional thief, lunatic, or pedophile. Besides, I think that about everybody is really fed up with the Jim Jones'es and David Koresh'es of the world, with their self-appointed ministries coming to them directly as a definite calling from God. It may not be perfect -- things hardly ever are in this corrupt world -- but the way the historical Church has been doing it since the beginning is still the best way that their is.
     
  14. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect you have no idea about my personal walk so please do not pretend that you do.
     
  15. Rhamiel

    Rhamiel Member of the Round Table

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    I thought this thread was going to be about Christ the King of Kings and the Good Shepherd
     
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Show me one verse that says all elders and overseers (Bishop is the same word for overseer in greek), that they were all "pastors", and and this goes directly against scripture where Paul said,

    "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead"(Galatians 1:1 KJV)

    Notice that Paul was not made an apostle of men or by men. No man is made an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher of men or by men. These are direct gifts from God not from men. As scripture teaches

    "8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men....11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"(Ephesians 4:8,11 KJV)

    Notice it is God who give gifts, not men or by man.

    So for any man today to go to a so called Bible school or Seminary, Buy his way into a course and take a pastoral course , take a test and then he is now a pastor, and may also get a degree as Master of Divinity" finds no place in the New testament . This is not how a man is made a pastor or apostle or prophet or evangelist or teacher. Isn't it interesting how men can take a pastoral course but not a prophet course or apostle course or evangelist course, for the most part?.

    We also read.

    "7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."( 1 Cpr 12"7-11 KJV)

    The same is said for the five fold gifts of Eph 4:11. No man can give another a gift from themselves. No man can buy his way into such a gift or study his way into it. It is God who gives severally as HE WILLS.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  17. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Really? So your personal experience is if you don’t have time to sow into spiritual things you can indefinitely reap them anyway? Wish I was you. All gain no pain? Something has to give. Guess one could just steal their families rightful time to do the sowing, like many have done.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  18. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes they were for a time. Paul planted churches with others and they were left for was while without elders for from 6 months to many years perhaps. Ten he would go back to those churches and send others like Titus to go back to them and ordain elders. These elders take time to mature and he would commend them to God and the word of His grace that was able to build them up. Paul would teach of God's order and the leading of the Spirit and waiting on the Lord for all things as he did in all the churches.

    "5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:"(Titus 1:5 KJV)
     
  19. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    It is about those who sometime, whether knowingly or unknowingly take the permanence in the gatherings as a pastor king or lord over all. When Jesus Christ should have pre eminence in all things.
     
  20. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    But not without the laying on of hands to impart the authority to perform any of these ministries within the Church. Christ gave His authority to the Apostles by breathing upon them and sending them out with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles transmitted this power and authority, to certain degrees, to others by the laying on of hands. The power and authority itself is not from men, but from God, but is transmitted only by the sacramental "laying on of hands". The present day practice of setting in place certain training "requirements" for people being considered for ordination is certainly not found in the Bible. A seminary education may not be the best way for a person to be prepared for leadership in the Church either. Their may even be some instances today wherein men have been ordained as "presbyters" without having graduated with a degree from the seminary. The presbyter who presides over the parish (local Church) that I belong to did not go to the seminary as is usually required. He is an older gentleman who is employed in his private practice as a dentist. He has had a minimal of seminary schooling, which he did not go to the seminary for, but did from his own home. But he was prepared for becoming a presbyter by virtue of having served alongside the former one as an ordained deacon for over 25 years.
     
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