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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Dec 20, 2017.

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  1. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Well, its the same way now in the ancient Church. There is the Russian Church, the Greek Church, the Antiochian Church, the Georgian Church, the American Church, the Jerusalem Church, and on. These Churches have been around for a very long time, some are older than 2000 years, having been established by the Apostles.
     
  2. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Apostolic succession is true. It is attested to in both Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition that was established from the beginning. It's not something that you were brought up with so you don't accept it. This is perfectly understandable given your background. We don't get to choose everything about our lives.
     
  3. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    I was brought up as a Roman catholic and I had to leave that
     
  4. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    That's understandable. A lot of people do.
     
  5. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    "The divine institution of the threefold hierarchy cannot of course be derived from our text; in fact it cannot in anyway be proved directly from the New Testament; it is a Catholic dogma by virtue of the dogmatic tradition, i.e., in a later period of ecclesiastical history the general belief in the divine institutions of the episcopate, presbyteriate, and diaconate can be verified and thence followed on through the centuries. But the dogmatic truth cannot be traced back to Christ Himself by analysis of strict historical testimony." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. VII, p. 334).

    This shows that the catholics can't prove their order from scripture, nor can many in the modern assemblies either if they do not allow God's order and body ministry
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No there is no scripture for it at all. Not even one s rupture that can be used to extend to today, or even in those days.

    God makes men overseers as we read in acts 20, and if any man desire the office (or function) of an overseer they desire a good work. This dies not sound like an apostolic succession. God makes apostles and prophets and evangelist and pastors and teachers, not man, or by man.
     
  7. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    So? The bishops, who are vested with the authority to do so by the laying on of hands by the Apostles, began to ordain certain men to represent them within the many local churches that were being planted all over the place. They called these "presbyters". They represent the bishop in the physical absence of the bishop, and receive their authority from the bishop (who is a successor of the Apostles) to do so "by the laying on of hands". There is no great evil conspiracy here. There are only ordained leaders in the Church doing what is necessary to minister to the needs of the growing Church by ordaining "assistants". This is just what the Apostles were doing when they ordained men to be deacons. But deacons were not given the authority to do certain things that bishops did. Presbyters were given a greater authority, but not as much as bishops. This is why there is now three ranks of Holy Orders. The bishop, the presbyter, and the deacon.
     
  8. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    We have already covered this. The Apostle Paul and Barnabas were ordained by the established authorities in the body of the Church through the laying on of hands. This is witnessed to by the Evangelist Luke, who wrote the Book of Acts. All authority to define doctrine resides in the Church. The authority comes from Christ Who gave it to His Apostles. The Apostles in turn distribute this authority to their successors and other helpers by the "laying on of hands". The ordained authorities in the Church hold councils together to define Church teaching and practice. This is the Tradition that is from the Bible and the Apostles, so it is from Christ, and the Scripture bears witness to it. Early Church manuscripts also bear witness that this was the Tradition that was handed down by the Apostles. Scripture commands us to hold fast to the Tradition of the Apostles. We are not to deviate from this Tradition. Scripture forbids us to do so no matter what new teachings arise which contradict it.
     
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    where does it say they were given "authority" by laying on of hands.

    authority is only when believers speak and live in the word of God and are led by the Spirit. If we recognize some in this walk and know them by their words and actions such men are ordained and this is not what some make it to be
     
  10. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    The Holy Spirit told the authorities within the Church to "set Saul and Barnabas apart" to be Apostles to the gentiles. The "laying on of hands" is the sacred instrument used in the Church to do this. This is from Holy Tradition dating back to the Old Covenant, wherein the same sacred instrument is used (Deuteronomy 34:9).
     
  11. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Where do you suppose the practice of "laying on of hands" came from? You know, it came from the Old Testament, and continued to be used by the Apostles in the Church of the New Testament.
     
  12. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    Jesus did not destroy the Law and the Prophets. He fulfilled it. The Sacred Tradition is very much still the same as it was in essence.
     
  13. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The expression "established authorities" is the great error.
    Authority is not a static position or title. It is a spiritual power in Christ and as he leads. True authority is as we live move and speak the word of God.

    Jesus said, “Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:” (Matt. 20:25-27, Mark 10:42,43, Luke 22:25,26). Jesus corrected the false idea of men ruling over and controling others by telling them to be “servants”. A servant has no authority in the world, but as they serve others, speaking and living the word of God they do.

    The word “dominion” means to control and lord over and in a supreme authority over. Jesus said this should not be among the saints and “authority” is not to be like the Gentile authority and rulers. But many gatherings today are set up this way all over the world. Jesus is not condemning simply evil dictators over others but the very form and structure of hierarcy over others in the church, this false clergy over the laity and authority over others that is so prevelant everwhere.

    The pharisees challenged Jesus authority and asked him “By what authority doest thou these things?” (Matt. 21:23). They asked him this because they did not recognize him in authority. Jesus was not a political ruler or kings as they knew, but when he spoke His word he spoke as one having authority, not as they did. This authority is similar to those christians who walk in the word of God today and speak it in the spirit. The authortiy is not in a positional authority, but rather a moral, spiritual authority in Christ and in their ministry of word and their life example. Spiritual authority flows from Christ as the head to His body of believers, it is not a static office. Only as all believers are led by the Spirit and directed by Jesus Christ can they be in His authority and made perfect unto every good work and do all things through Christ (John 15, Heb. 13:20,21 etc). Outside of this they can do nothing, and will only be conformed to the worldly type of authority and power over others which many churches are misled in today instead of hearing and functioning in the body of Christ with Christ as the head (Eph. 4:15,16).

    No Covering Teaching

    Today we hear many ask “who is your covering?”, meaning, “who controls you and is in authrotiy over you?" Or it is taught as a protection from error when you are under a certain man or religious group. But this “covering idea is not part of God’s odrer. The New testament does speak of love covering a multitude of sins, but does not place men as Lords over others in the church and in control and authority over others in Hieracrchical roles imitating the world’s authority structures.

    Paul said, “Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy” (2 Cor. 1:24). The words “we have dominion” in Greek mean, “To rule:-have dominion over, lord, be lord of, exercise lordship over”, from 2962, “...supreme in authority, i.e. (as a noun) controller: by implication, Master (as a respectful title)...”. Strangely enough this is exactly what we see in many assemblies today where there is an exalted men over the body with such false control and dominion over others. They are even called, “Master of Divinity”, “Reverend” "Priest" and even “Presidents” over others (Col 2:8). But Jesus said call no man master. A master means, “a guide” from “to lead”. But all believers are to be led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14) and the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth (John 16:13), they have no need that any man should teach them (1 John 2:27). The old man is crucified, and they listen to the new man in the anointing.

    What authority do we have in Christ?

    One of the main questions that might be asked is, “what authority do elders or any beleiver in the body of Christ have, and how are they to function in the body?”

    Jesus has all power and authority and he gives believers his power and authority as they abide in him. The authority of the church is founded upon Christ and derived from Him and his word, it us worked in humility and love in the Spirits leading, not in an oppressive dominance of mens persons, as Lords over others or in the natural human wisdom and personality cults. on the contrary, Jesus says, that the one who will be great among them should be as MINISTERS and SERVANTS. A servant does not have authority in the world. But in God’s order this is where they find it. The true authority of God comes when we live in the word of God and speak the word of God (Heb.13:7,20,21, John 15:5). This authority is from God and not of ourselves. We are only able to walk in Gods authority when we are dead to self and let Christ effectually work in us and as we walk in the word of God and His leading. This is how we see the true service and ministry in the light and Spirit of God. And as we read in scripture, It is God that will “Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ;”(Heb. 13:21). This is where we get authority in Christ. This authority is Gods power working in us.

    Any man who walks outside of God working in himself does not have Gods authority or Gods order.

    But Man’s authority can and does often fight against God’s authority.

    The authority that men set for themselves today is often a positional authority over others and as exalted Lords over the other believers. While this is allowed within political governments and rulers and kings have such authority to govern nations and as long as they are not a terror to good works etc ( Romans 12) . This authority however, is not the same in the church and among the gathering of believers and jesus said we should not be tis way.

    Sadly however, many churches today have similar authority as the worlds rulers have in their positional authority and they rule the same way among the believers. Their is a Hierarchial structure set up by men and exactly like the gentile rulers. Those in dominion and authority over others are in a positional authority, where there is a slot or special seat for the ones who are called leaders. But in the church we are all brethren, and though there are elders, who are more mature in their walk and in the word are more sound, their auhthority flows from Christ the head. Jesus Christ is the head of the church and no man should seek to take such a place over others.
     
  14. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    It is obvious that Jesus Christ established His Apostles as authorities in His Church when He gave the keys and the power to "bind and loose". It is obvious also that the Tradition of passing this power to successors by the laying on of hands is also established in the Church by its practice by the Apostles themselves. Just because there are some Church leaders who fall from grace does not mean that the practice can be abolished or the authority disregarded. Jesus did not teach this. On the contrary, he says to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you." (Matthew 23:2-3) Jesus is saying here that their are people in offices of authority in the Church, and He Himself approves of this hierarchical order. As a matter of fact, He is the Author of it.
     
  15. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about.
     
  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    No Moses seat if under the law and it represented the men reading from Gods holy scripture. They were to hear the law and scripture. But not to go by the pmens works who read it.re to hear the law and scripture. But not to go by the mens works who read it.

    Jesus gives all power to cast out devils un his authority, and to minister and use all the gifts in his authority
     
  17. truefiction1

    truefiction1 Fool

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    That power is still prevalent within the ancient Church at present. Therefore, this suggestion of yours that the ancient Church, with it's Apostolic Tradition and authoritative hierarchy in place, is not the real Church of Jesus Christ is rejected by the power of the Holy Spirit, Who remains to this day very active within the Life of the ancient Church. I have seen this power myself and bear witness to it, and my witness is true. In the face of this evidence from God, I've no doubt that what I've been saying is True.
     
  18. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Why did you personalize what I said before as if I was aiming the entire comment at your walk?
     
  19. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    When you quote someone you are addressing them directly. That is how it works.
     
  20. mothcorrupteth

    mothcorrupteth Old Whig Monarchist, Classically Realpolitik

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    Καταλαβαίνετε Ελληνικά, κύριε; Actually, the word occurs 18 times in the New Testament. "Shepherd" is just another translation of "pastor," just as "overseer" is only another translation of "bishop." And the one verse you've overlooked is:

    For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
    ...ἦτε γὰρ ὡς πρόβατα πλανώμενα ἀλλ᾽ ἐπεστράφητε νῦν ἐπὶ τὸν ποιμένα καὶ ἐπίσκοπον τῶν ψυχῶν ὑμῶν... (1Pet. 2:25)

    Note the equation of the terms--both are referring to watching over the sheep. These are not two roles combined in one office; they are the same role. You can say this is talking about Jesus, not merely human elder-bishops, but see the logic of what is being argued. Peter's point about Jesus depends on the idea that shepherding and oversight go together, not the other way around. If that's so, why should we believe that human elder-bishops are so separated from the concept of shepherding? Not only that, but the verse occurs in the context of a lengthy discussion on obeying earthly authorities.

    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    ...καὶ οὓς μὲν ἔθετο ὁ θεὸς ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ πρῶτον ἀποστόλους δεύτερον προφήτας τρίτον διδασκάλους ἔπειτα δυνάμεις εἶτα χαρίσματα ἰαμάτων ἀντιλήψεις, κυβερνήσεις γένη γλωσσῶν... (1Cor. 12:28)

    The word in question is where we get the word cybernetics, the science of communication and control. It itself is derived from the verb κῠβερνᾰ́ω, which refers to piloting a boat. The pilot of a boat was literally the dude who was in charge of the ship. Ergo, 1Cor. 12:28 teaches that being in charge "in the church" was a divine appointment. You can argue, if you like, that all believers have the gift of "governments," but I ask you, what happens when multiple people are trying to steer the same vehicle at the same time? Shipwreck. Hence why Protestantism, and especially Pentecostalism, is a fragmented mess.

    Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
    Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι διπλῆς τιμῆς ἀξιούσθωσαν μάλιστα οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ... (1Tim. 5:17)

    The term προεστῶτες refers literally to one who is placed before or above others. It is the same word that Paul uses earlier to refer to the head of a household (1Tim. 3:5) who "rules" over his children (3:12). This implies that at least some elders have the gift of government or cybernetics whereas other others do not, and explicitly tells us that some govern better than others and should be given extra respect. To brush off this bishop-elder role as only being "oversight" is to suggest that Chapter 3 imagines the parent as being someone who merely leads their child by example and doesn't have control in the sense of headship and discipline, which in turn would imply (because of the analogy in Ephesians 5) that Christ himself is not the head of the Church in the sense of commanding it.

    Οχι. Δεν καταλαβαίνετε Ελληνικά. Learn Modern Greek. It's the closest living relative to κοινή, and you'll understand the New Testament better. Go to a Greek Orthodox church to practice speaking it. In the process you'll learn that good priests (short for presbyters/elders) and bishops are pastors in the sense of ruling in service of their flocks, not people who forego rule altogether.
     
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