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Discussion in 'General Theology' started by LoveofTruth, Dec 20, 2017.

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  1. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    hello and God bless,

    I am speaking of the modern accepted route for many who are called "pastors". Yes there are some so called "pastors" that do not go to any kind of formal training. But somehow the assemblies they control over still seem to have a one man pastor ministry exalted over all.

    A person could find n the most remote parts of the world, where people live in huts, a so called, "church building" and pews or seats facing forward towards the exalted man "the pastor" at the front. This tradition did not come from scripture but from early tradition after the apostles death and into the time of Constantine and on. This is when the so called "clergy and laity" divide took place for the most part and was strengthened by man's traditions. In scripture we see elders (plural) in ever church and they are not as Lords over others but more mature brothers who are able to rightly divide the word, feed and teach etc. In fact we even see some churches planted by Paul and others and they left them for a long time and then went back to each church to ordain elders ( Titus 1). This shows that there was a time when there was no elders or one man over all. So some might ask, how did they function without a exalted man over all, with no elders or pastor? Paul said to the Colossians that they were to let the peace of God rule (govern) in their heart as they are called together and to let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly teaching and admonishing one another etc. This letting the Word of Christ dwell in them is how they are built up. Jesus Christ is in every believer and he is the head of the church from whom all the body lives and ministers and he works effectually in every part to unto the edifying of the body ( Ephesians 4:15,16)

    But this does not mean that others can't minister as they are led. We see all the body ministering to each other in scripture and this was God's order for the churches, in every church that is as Paul said he spoke and taught the same things in every church everywhere. Paul said that edifying one another as we are led by God in our different gifts is a "command of the Lord 1 Cor 14:26-38. This was not an option.

    So anything that hinders God from freely moving in the body should be rejected and withdrawn from. And the one man pastor ministry over all quenches the spirit in the rest of the body and hinders the very function of the church and the mutual participation of Christ in the body. Jesus may be standing outside many gatherings knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them. But they think all is well and need nothing.

    Also many so called "pastors" today are burned out and find it very difficult to do all the ministry in the body. That is because they were never intended to do so.

    No I simply believe Jesus when he said "freely ye have received, freely give" and I find it troubling that a person can claim to be a pastor gift from God or any other of the five gifts, after taking such a route. God alone gives gifts and the body is to know those who labour among them and try them in overnight functions etc. They are to be "home grown elders" as the expression has come to be known.


    Offended is not the right word. I am troubled that so many go directly against Jesus warning not to do this. This is related to spiritual body ministry in the church, not the secular world.

    Paul said

    "8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:"( Colossians 2:8,9 KJV)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  2. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I agree with you....Shepherd, Pastor, Elder....technically they have a job to do which is to teach and guide the sheep.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I disagree, friend. Granted, a person can drink and eat of the Lord's supper unworthily without going to a traditional church these days, but chances are that is how it happens most often now. If this was a house church where believers only gathered it would eliminate the mishap of unbelievers partaking of the Lord's supper unworthily.
     
  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    I don't see any reason to come to that conclusion. Only God knows one's heart for certain, and there are plenty of Christian churches which will commune any baptized Christian, so you can't be thinking of the ones that close it to non-members.
     
  5. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    Painting with a pretty broad brush in your tract. In fact, your writing quickly begins to sound like the ranting of a crank. That's too bad, really. There are some parts of your tract that are worth reading. One of the big objections I have to what you've written is your implication that what was true of the structure of the church in the New Testament ought to be precisely what is true of its structure today. This is to confuse description with prescription and to ignore the enormous societal differences that there are between now and the time of the writing of the New Testament.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2018
  6. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    and elder is who they are a mature brother in the faith, and overseer is what they do they care for others and watch over, not Lord over and apostle prophet evangelist pastors and teachers is within the possibility of a gift or so that they might have in the body.

    Paul told the elders in Acts 20 that the Holy Ghost had made them overseers. Among the elders may be some teachers pastors apostles prophets evangelist etc. The issue is that there is not just one pastor over a flock. This is not seen in the positive in the New testament.

    We do see some who exalt themselves over others 2 Cor 11 and some who dominate over others and have permanence in 3rd John 9,10. But never do we see one man called the pastor as we see him today over all.

    This is because the very function of the body is mutual edification as all are led by God.

    we also read Paul saying,

    "3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:..."(Romans 12:3-8 KJV)


    and

    "18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. 19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise. 20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face."(2 Cor 11:18-20 KJV)

    John also dealt with this issue and said

    "
    26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:26,27 KJV)

    Peter also warned about not being as Lords over the flock in 1 Peter 5. Paul also warned night and day with tears for years about men drawing away disciples after themselves.

    "29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also
    of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."(Acts 20:29-31 KJV)
     
  7. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.

    Paul taught the same things in every church everywhere. God is not the author of confusion but of peace as in all the churches of the saints. All assemblies should have the same order.

    but I am curious exactly what parts of the tract you don't agree with and why.

    and as you know, the church is not a man made building but the body of Christ a spiritual house. Contrary to what many call the church today when referring to a large Babylonian edifice with a steeple and triangular shape building.
     
  8. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Part of the problem that shifted men from God's order to mans traditions happened way back. I would say it was strongly influenced by the time of Constantine and the building projects he had. These bBasillicas which came to be unbiblically known as "churches" shifted men away from the bod ministry and put it in the hands of a specialized "priest" or pastor over all. No longer did the body wait on the Lord for revelation and ministry and teaching etc, but the "experts" did all the ministry.

    The very structures that they built up where all are facing forward and looking at the back of each others heads to the exalted man on the altar or platform fight against body ministry that is commanded in scripture to be allowed to happen

    Paul said clearly

    "26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.:( 1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV)

    Notice that what Paul wrote were the "commandments of the Lord" for the church order. These are not options. If God's order was different in every church then God would be the author of confusion. But he is not.

    Peter also understood this order and said

    "10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."(1 Peter 4:10,11 KJV)

    Paul also said

    "
    15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord."(Colossians 3:15,16 KJV)

    Paul also said

    "7 But the manifestation of the Spirit
    is given to every man to profit withal....21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:"( 1 Cor 12:7,21,22 KJV)
     
  9. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    People are still able to meet in homes and they do as they did in the early church days. People are still able to have teaching and fellowship and a meal in homes as they did in the first century church times.

    I am not against a large meeting for evangelism and other outreach. But that is not the church functioning to one another in Christ.

    Anything that hinders the function of the church should be withdrawn from.
     
  10. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    to all:

    I just want to say that my heart goes out to many of the men who have been drawn into the unbiblical pastor role they have today. I know there are many godly men who seek to help others and do God's will. I am encouraging them to gather in homes with other believers and wait on the Lord have a meal together fellowship, and as a body reach out in winning souls.

    But there are some other men who Lord over others and bring them into bondage who seek to build a name for themselves and control others and are abusive in many ways. To these men I say repent.

    I have heard a so called "pastor" say to the brothers and sister he controls, "I am the head of the church, listen to me or your in rebellion."

    No, Christ is the head of the church.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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  11. MyGivenNameIsKeith

    MyGivenNameIsKeith Well-Known Member

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    Christ said to Peter... feed my lambs, feed my sheep, feed my sheep. He also said to him that he was to build his church upon that rock.... So given that we are to feed, teach, exhort, etc... and some are said to be pastors in the bible.... given the bible's authority...
    Good pastors are teaching from the bible. They teach Christ as the head of the church. My pastor for example, rather than taking some huge paycheck... actually has two jobs, one of which is driving the school bus. Church money is for church. And he has a master's degree from a respected bible college. The bible teaches we are to learn the bible, rightly dividing the word of truth, able to discern, apt to teach. Imagine that.
    Bad pastors have 10-15 million dollar mansions, write 500 books a year for profit, and are all about empowering your life so that you are happy. There are a few too many on television if you care to look. Sadly, there are more bad pastors... (bling leading the blind), which is why it is ever so important to read your bible, pray to God, and study so that you may be able to discern what is true and what is false.
    Pastors are biblical.
    Popes on the other hand.....don't get me started. Someone there took 1 Corinthians 4:15 a bit too far and let it go to their head.
     
  12. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    In many respects, yes. But not in every respect. He set aside his heavenly glory and became a man; he changed from a child into an adult; he changed his clothes as they wore out or he outgrew them; he changed his location, and so on. The Church has also undergone changes.

    But not in exactly the same order or with the exact same words. He emphasized some things over others depending upon the group he was addressing. You can see this very clearly in his letters. He did not exemplify a rigid, slavish adherence to a particular line or form of teaching.

    All churches should be orderly but it does not follow that they should, therefore, all have a uniform kind of order. There is order on a football field, each player following a carefully prescribed and practiced maneuver, but it is by no means the order of a session of parliament; there is order in a line of people waiting to be served at a McDonald's (usually), but it is not (and does not need to be) the order of a military march. Clearly, not all orderliness is - or must be - the same.

    Well, now this just sounds a bit kooky. I understand very well that the Church is not a building, but the Church often meets in one.

    Linking the building to Babylon is rather a stretch, though...

    Well, it's one theory, anyway...

    Perhaps in the churches you've been in this is the case, but not in the ones I've attended.

    Yes, but there is no clear mandate from Scripture that this must be the only way in which the Church meets together. Description is not necessarily prescription.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  13. joshua 1 9

    joshua 1 9 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Pasters are pretty far down the list. They are only ahead of teachers. Eph 4 11 "So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up"

    In general we are to esteem others as better then ourselves. Philip 2 "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves."
     
  14. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post brother! Amen and Amen! Welcome to the remnant :) Now get ready for the real stones of persecution to come speaking the truth like that. I am sure you have experienced some already no doubt.
     
  15. 2Timothy2:15

    2Timothy2:15 Well-Known Member

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    Seminary is indoctrination centers for a system of men.
     
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  16. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    The order that Paul taught was given by the Spirit of God as he said in many cases. He even said that the order he wrote were the commandments of the Lord.

    The order I speak of is this order

    Gods Order in the body of Christ

    "God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry, fruits of the Spirit and sets the order. No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and exalted leaders.

    Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s natural mind and human wisdom, and is regulated by programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world that can make the word of God of no effect.

    God's order is not a rigid ritual and form as many have today with a time clock for preaching and all sitting quiet facing forward to hear the man speak his sermon that he prepared all week, and which he sometimes repeats as an actor in the second so called "service".

    No, God's order is His life and power working in all believers making us perfect unto ever good work and to all ministry and speaking and teaching and fruits of the spirit as we abide in Him. This order is in the peace of God and as he rules in our heart. What hinders this order is mans traditions that make the word of God of no effect and mans order that is carnal and fleshly and that follows the traditions of men and rudiments of the world often. Paul warned of this in Colossians 2:8.

    All churches should be orderly but it does not follow that they should, therefore, all have a uniform kind of order. There is order on a football field, each player following a carefully prescribed and practiced maneuver, but it is by no means the order of a session of parliament; there is order in a line of people waiting to be served at a McDonald's (usually), but it is not (and does not need to be) the order of a military march. Clearly, not all orderliness is - or must be - the same.


    No its not kooky at all. If you research you will find that when Constantine started to build the basilicas, they were often patterned after pagan temples.

    As I was driving recently through town i saw a few man made buildings unbiblically called a church. One was called "Christ Church and it had , (as many have) a large tower structure at the front door like Baal worship structure we see in front of the Vatican and the white house. Attached to it was a triangular building. This is a very common structure for so called "churches". But I noticed that to get in the front door you have to go through this tower , or steeple. This is similar to babylon and pagan structures. The obelisk, is a phalic symbol also for pagan religion. I attached a picture of what i am talking about here. I read in Revelation of Mystery babylon and that God's people are to come out of her. I do wonder if the religious system we see today has capture many of Gods people in it and these signs, (tower priest, religious form, temples etc) are signs of the confusion and Mystery Babylon. Yes it may be that serious.

    There are many things in scripture and the patterns we see that we follow today without express commands. But there are other things that we see the church doing as they were led by the Spirit that we should also do. Paul handed down the order and it is seen all over. Paul wrote the commandments of the Lord for this order (1 Cor 14:26-38) and he commended others for following the order.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  17. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    more so called "church" steeples (towers)
     

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  18. LoveofTruth

    LoveofTruth Christ builds His church from within us

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    Yes, and they are mentioned as one of the five gifts to the church in Ephesians 4:11. But the modern role of the pastor as the CEO, Lord over all, supreme authority, controller of all things and the one who has the power to speak in a gathering and no one can minister unless he allows it, Is false.

    And somehow this one gift has come to dominate over all the others. History has a lot to speak about this tradition of men and how it developed. But that is a long study.

    We read of elders who are humble men and seek the good of others and do not exalt themselves. These elders are in the plural form for the most part in gatherings. But all the body can still minister and edify each other as they are led.
     
  19. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Thanks.. you posted allot of verses yet.. does not back up your case. Pastor means? shepherd. It comes from the Latin word. So you are correct "Pastor" is not in there. What comes right to mind is .. Jesus telling Peter 3 times "feed my sheep". How would a shepherd tend, feed so forth so on. Why did you leave out Acts 20:28? "Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood". Amp "Take care and be on guard for yourselves and for the whole flock over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as overseers, to shepherd (tend, feed, guide) the church of God which He bought with His own blood."

    You said "Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church". The verses you quote.. you took out of context to say what you wanted. John 3:9-10. Talking to the CHURCH the BODY of Christ was he? Or about Diotrephes? Col 8. Talking about "pastors"? Let no man deceive you. "after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Traditions of men? Rudiments, elemental spiritual forces, principles of the world,..

    You are looking at this.. in a different way. Well you used words like "Pope-like" "king, lord". I can see were the POPE comes from but king and lord? There are what over 100k Churches in the USA and over 300k world wide. So.. SURE some could not be called. Some could be treated very very GOOD aka like a king. Yet as MANY here know 1st hand of those Pastors that serve all. That will drop everything to help.. go anywhere do anything. This is something where MANY have been together, all praying for a very very long time. Each speaking.. praying being directed told what to do by the sweet sweet Holy Spirit.

    This is why we ALWAYS need someone above us over us. There really are PASTORS that spent there LIFE studying praying more HOURS a day then they do anything else. So I agree to some degree but. I think you should have worded it.. like IS IT...COULD IT BE.. you know. Leave the door open. IN CASE you might be could be wrong? Love ya man.. AND GREAT WORK.. really. Is it like when Jesus left and we had the 12.. no. But how do you SEE that as the start the middle the end or? For it was the start the birth.. and what GOD does ALWAYS grows. So....have some Faith in your Father that after ALL these years if it was WRONG He would have changed it by now.

    Forgive me .. I am no writer.. bless you and thanks for this. Well I am not going to say I AM RIGHT YOUR WRONG.. no.. I listen read then I go back and look into to this. AWESOME
     
  20. dqhall

    dqhall Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jesus told Peter he was the rock that Christ's church would be built upon. Peter may be derived from the Greek petros (rock). A house built on a solid foundation will not easily fall. Jesus needed his disciples to teach their followers and to organize their followers. These were not supposed to live like the kings who live in great luxury. Church leaders are supposed to be wise stewards concerned with public welfare and not only their own prosperity. Meeting rooms and halls were useful for Christian assemblies. Not everyone was literate in those days and the cost of scrolls was high. Many scrolls were written on tanned animal skins called parchment. People had to assemble to hear the word. In the first three centuries, Christianity was greatly persecuted in some places. Persecuted believers sometimes met in people's homes or in forests. They met in the underground catacombs of Rome. One of the earliest Roman era church buildings I can recall was a third century church found by archaeologists at Dura-Europas near the border of the Roman and Parthian empires in what is now Syria.

    In some Marxist or Muslim countries, Christianity is persecuted. People did not advertise their meeting places with steeples, but met in secret places and had to be careful about who to trust for fear of arrest or execution.

    Since there is some freedom of religion in the USA, people may or may not attend the services of the "pastor kings." One televangelist has his own private airport and collection of jets. He lived in a house with numerous empty bedrooms. I think he may have taxed his congregation excessively for his own benefit.
     
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