• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I answered this before if you check. There is so much i can say about it. But all were born again and saved by the word of God in the new birth. even men like David said Gods word quickened him
Most of the OT Patriarch's were imputed righteousness because of faith. But none of them experienced the new birth.

The Holy Spirit was with David and others at times, but they were not permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit as we are.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't see any evidence that he was saved.





"I" don't say it, scripture does.

Joh_6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus knew Judas would betray him from the beginning. That implies Judas was a devil from the start.



Scripture doesn't show he changed.

yes scripture does show he changed. He was once belonging to the father and jesus and a sent one empowered and had the spirit of the father speaking in him and of jesus household and called a sheep sent to the lost sheep, then he fell and betrayed the trust he had

clearly he was saved and changed.

But as i am aware some have too much vested in their doctrines, they know they have said many things against the scriptural truth i show and this will cause a massive recanting of their words over the many years. Its not that they cannot see it its that sometimes they are blocked or don't want to see it.

there is no way of avoiding the clear scriptures i showed about Judas.

and i know that jesus said one of you is a devil speaking of Judas who SHOULD (future tense) betray him. But i am not referring to the end of Jesus ministry but the beginning

And I haven't even dealt fully with the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
yes scripture does show he changed. He was once belonging to the father and jesus and a sent one empowered and had the spirit of the father speaking in him and of jesus household and called a sheep sent to the lost sheep, then he fell and betrayed the trust he had

clearly he was saved and changed.

But as i am aware some have too much vested in their doctrines, they know they have said many things against the scriptural truth i show and this will cause a massive recanting of their words over the many years. Its not that they cannot see it its that sometimes they are blocked or don't want to see it.

there is no way of avoiding the clear scriptures i showed about Judas.

and i know that jesus said one of you is a devil speaking of Judas who SHOULD (future tense) betray him. But i am not referring to the end of Jesus ministry but the beginning

And I haven't even dealt fully with the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire
You really should list out your scripture proving your point. If as you said scripture is clear than you can clearly show us.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Most of the OT Patriarch's were imputed righteousness because of faith. But none of them experienced the new birth.

The Holy Spirit was with David and others at times, but they were not permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit as we are.

All believers have the Spirit of Christ as OT saints had galatians 3. That is the seed or word of God. But not all had the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Even before the cross Jesus said Judas and the 11 had the Spirit of the father in them

Jesus said none of them is lost but Judas in John 17, before the cross.

and jesus said to a man this day salvation is come to thy house , before the cross. i can give so much evidence but it would take an entire thread , maybe soon
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And I haven't even dealt fully with the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire
And that road will get you know where because

1) Angels cannot have faith because they KNOW God exists
2) Jesus did not die for angels, only human beings so angels are not given what we are given. The fallen angels destiny has already been set.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Danthemailman
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
All believers have the Spirit of Christ as OT saints had galatians 3. That is the seed or word of God. But not all had the baptism with the Holy Ghost.
Please list your verses.

I see many verses that specifically tell which Patriarch's had been imputed righteousness because of their faith.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Even before the cross Jesus said Judas and the 11 had the Spirit of the father in them
I think you still need to show that Judas had the Spirit with him. God's Word says that one cannot serve to masters, they will love one and hate the other. So if Judas had the Spirit, he wouldn't have betrayed Christ.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
and jesus said to a man this day salvation is come to thy house , before the cross. i can give so much evidence but it would take an entire thread , maybe soon
So what? Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise.

But that doesn't mean they had the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said that it is best for them that He go, because He will ask the Father and the Father will send them a Comforter in Jesus name.

Notice, Jesus had to go.
 
Upvote 0

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟78,847.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelveapostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”


Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give

7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out
That is not the definition of "saved."

To be "saved" one must become One with Christ and God, having been born again of the spirit of God - which did not come in Judas' lifetime.
 
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Site Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,506
✟213,907.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

No, it doesn't.

 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
All believers have the Spirit of Christ as OT saints had galatians 3. That is the seed or word of God. But not all had the baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Even before the cross Jesus said Judas and the 11 had the Spirit of the father in them
And that road will get you know where because

1) Angels cannot have faith because they KNOW God exists
2) Jesus did not die for angels, only human beings so angels are not given what we are given. The fallen angels destiny has already been set.

It will get me everywhere in this discussion, because they are used as a warning for believers, if they had no relevance then they would not be quoted in scripture as a reference.

If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell"

and God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels, yet even humans who die in unbelief and sin will end up there

the point with angels is that they are eternal beings in the light of Christ and yet they can be lost in the lake of fire . They can go from the highest state and still lose their place and burn.

the angel argument is unanswerable to the eternal security groups. They usually have not even considered it let alone try to fit it into their theology, from what i have seen so far .
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
No, it doesn't.
Yes it does.

to show that Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep shatters the eternal security false doctrine.

understand me i truly believe the false doctrine taught by the eternal security teachers is dangerous and false and misrepresents the truth of God and strengthens the hands of sinners as the false prophets did in old days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That is not the definition of "saved."

To be "saved" one must become One with Christ and God, having been born again of the spirit of God - which did not come in Judas' lifetime.

you need to go back and learn the basic principles and doctrines of Christ, yes all OT saints were saved and had the spirit of Chris in them, or else they were none of his. They were all born again and by the word of God.

I can see that i am going to have to make a thread about OT new birth and salvation.

and yes to belong to the father and jesus and be a sheep of jesus means you are saved. jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas was one of those sheep as clearly we see in matthew 10

i am convinced most of the eternal security groups that i speak with have not even considered matthew 10 about Judas the way it is presented here. or the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire/
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It will get me everywhere in this discussion, because they are used as a warning for believers, if they had no relevance then they would not be quoted in scripture as a reference.

If God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell"

and God created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels, yet even humans who die in unbelief and sin will end up there

the point with angels is that they are eternal beings in the light of Christ and yet they can be lost in the lake of fire . They can go from the highest state and still lose their place and burn.

the angel argument is unanswerable to the eternal security groups. They usually have not even considered it let alone try to fit it into their theology, from what i have seen so far .
The warning is for those who think they do not need the Savior. The warning is that God wants sin atoned for.

God doesn't compare us to angels, except to show that rebellion is rebellion.
 
Upvote 0

ToBeLoved

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 3, 2014
18,705
5,818
✟368,235.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
you need to go back and learn the basic principles and doctrines of Christ, yes all OT saints were saved and had the spirit of Chris in them, or else they were none of his. They were all born again and by the word of God.

I can see that i am going to have to make a thread about OT new birth and salvation.

and yes to belong to the father and jesus and be a sheep of jesus means you are saved. jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas was one of those sheep as clearly we see in matthew 10

i am convinced most of the eternal security groups that i speak with have not even considered matthew 10 about Judas the way it is presented here. or the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire/
If you are so right, why is everyone questioning your theology?

Why don't you just lay out the verses that say that the Old Testament people's were saved by Christ's blood?

Should be easy if it's in the Bible, right?
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The warning is for those who think they do not need the Savior. The warning is that God wants sin atoned for.

God doesn't compare us to angels, except to show that rebellion is rebellion.

no read Jude

"
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

notice that he first shows that a person can once be saved and then be destroyed. then he follows with the angels that angels.

The argument here is for believers to take heed and not follow after such things, or to turn the grace of God into lasciviousness / These type of men can deceive many. Sand Peter tells us that many shall follow the pernicious ways of false teachers, who even deny the Lord that bought them.

"
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
"
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If you are so right, why is everyone questioning your theology?

Why don't you just lay out the verses that say that the Old Testament people's were saved by Christ's blood?

Should be easy if it's in the Bible, right?

your argument is flawed if i was in a Catholic room and showing then the errors of their ways they would all be questioning my theology.

Many here are into such theology and some are baptist, reformed and similar views.

But there are many that agree with me that a believer can fall away and close salvation, millions.

and numbers doesn't make right as you should know. All forsook paul in Asia, and yet the Lord stood by him. Jeremiah had only one follower and jesus had only 120 in the upper room that followed on.

and i am considering to lay them out and make another thread about the OT saints salvation and new birth. These things are really very basic I marvel that some don't know them, and that some don't understand that Ot saints were called saints because of salvation
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheMissingRib
Upvote 0